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Arrested for murder after killing burglar.. England.

124

Comments

  • #92
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Vincent Cooke has been just released on police bail, its been announced.
    I hope all his family, neighbors and friends rally around him and show support. He deserves it.


  • #93
    Kadongy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 732 ✭✭✭Kadongy


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    I wasn't quoting you out of context - I was pointing out that the word "bloodlust" is inappropriate.
    No it's not. I wasn't saying anything about the houiseholder having bloodlust which is what you took it as. I was saying that people on this forum saying he should have a medal and stuff were showing bloodlust.
    Stop telling me I said things I didn't say when it is really clear what I am saying if you actually listen [read] instead of approaching things with preconceived ideas [that you are correct]

    And you were quoting me out of context because you removed the rest of my post explaining what I meant by it.


  • #94
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,370 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    hondasam wrote: »
    Maybe he always carry's a weapon just in case. Would you have time to go to your kitchen to get a knife if someone broke into your house.


    You might have time, unless they just happen to have a key and can totally silently enter your house in an instant.


  • #95
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,801 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    So this guy Jacob armed himself with a knife and him and his mate go and break into a house, they are confronted by the homeowner and in the ensuing struggle Jacob is fatally stabbed with his own weapon.

    The homeowner has absolutely no case to answer here. Armed burglars break into his home and he defends himself successfully.


  • #96
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,370 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    Killing another human being is not ok. Vigilantism is not ok.

    The only time it's ever acceptable is if you're directly saving someone else's life by doing so. I don't mean "he MIGHT have pulled a knife and stabbed me", I mean "I know he had a knife and he was going to use it."

    Material possessions are not worth a human life.

    Well it looks like you would wait until its too late to defend your family there. Very easy to say all that on the keyboard in the comfort of the non-invaded home. When will you defend, only when the burglar has his knife out stabbing your family members or yourself?

    If a burglar breaks in, i think we have the right to assume they could use any means to escape when cornered or surprised by occupants. If we are wrong in assuming that with some burglars, thats too bad for the burglar when we defend our property or family from them.

    There is a lot more at stake than property from these "people". People may be traumatised for a long time after it, never again feel safe in their home possibly. Especially someone elderly, sympathy for which few burglars would probably have.

    If it is a clear case of burglary here, it wont be prosecuted most likely.


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  • #97
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,370 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    So this guy Jacob armed himself with a knife and him and his mate go and break into a house, they are confronted by the homeowner and in the ensuing struggle Jacob is fatally stabbed with his own weapon.

    The homeowner has absolutely no case to answer here. Armed burglars break into his home and he defends himself successfully.

    No he doesnt is right, if thats what happened it will just be a formality.


  • #98
    mikemac
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,967 ✭✭✭✭mikemac


    Leaving flowers outside Mr Cooke's house is downright creepy and a bit disturbing.

    And if the police don't remove the flowers there could be a confrontation between the Cooke's and their friends with the burglars family outside the house.

    Take those flowers and visitors back to Raymondo's house.


  • #99
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,370 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    evercloserunion wrote: »
    but self-defence does not extend to exacting violent retribution out on someone just because they messed with you and you want to teach them a lesson or prove your matcho credentials.

    So it must be that the home owner here was delighted to be able to show his macho credentials here. Couldnt believe his luck when burglars chose his house then?

    I think breaking into someones home is a bit more than "messing with them"
    No civilised society should allow that. (I'm not making any judgement as to what happened in this case, but people in this thread are defending the latter.)

    No, people in this thread are sayin, if you choose to break into someones house, to steal their property, and likely traumatise them, then too bad if the owner defends his property by any means they can.

    You must think they are there to take the DVD player, walk away, then the owner is fine, its only a pessession after all. Never mind the family home invasion, trauma to people possibly for a long time, and not feeling safe again at home.


  • #100
    joseph brand
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,540 ✭✭✭joseph brand


    You also have to remember that it has happened, that occupants of houses have been tied up and abused/ tortured/ beaten.
    Some people seem to to believe that these low-life cretins just pop in and out of houses like the tooth fairy. I can't imagine what it must be like to sleep in your home after it has been burgled. You'd never EVER forget it, and restless nights would become the norm.
    I hope the other thief gets a fat sentence.


  • #101
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,370 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    mikemac wrote: »
    Leaving flowers outside Mr Cooke's house is downright creepy and a bit disturbing.

    And if the police don't remove the flowers there could be a confrontation between the Cooke's and their friends with the burglars family outside the house.

    Take those flowers and visitors back to Raymondo's house.

    Yes 100%.


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  • #102
    jackie1974
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 486 ✭✭jackie1974


    He was absolutely right, he was extremely brave considering he was faced with two large men, one of them armed. His wife and child arrived home during the incident so who knows what way it could have went.


    Its tragic that a life was lost but if you live by the sword, you die by the sword. If you choose to intimidate somebody in their own home and they retaliate then its hard luck. Im sure the burgalers felt safe enough having two against one but it just goes to show the instinct to protect ones family and home is a force to be reckoned with.

    I feel sorry for this poor guy having to live with the fact that he killed somebody because no matter how necessary it was most people would go through enormous guilt afterwards.


  • #103
    revell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 221 ✭✭revell


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    Never mind the family home invasion, trauma to people possibly for a long time, and not feeling safe again at home.


    Totally agree. If I donot feel safe at home, I will hate the guy who causes this for LIFE.


  • #104
    Tefral
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,417 ✭✭✭Tefral


    My sisters house was broken into recently while she was in the house upstairs, the thief broke the glass patio door and made his way in. She locked herself in the room and then called the cops. Despite them being only 5 mins away. (I mean this literally, from her top bedroom window you can see the rounabout by the garda station) it took them ages to respond.

    My Brother in law came home from dropping the kids at school and your man ran off. He was found by the Gardai a few houses down trying the same thing. When they arrested him they found he was in jail a few times for GBH and also had a serious arrest warrant for him in England. When it came to the court case nothing much happened him here because he is going away for a long time in England.

    Since then my sister doesnt feel as safe in the house as she once did. These scumbags get off with alot, even if they dont manage to rob anything they leave a lasting scar.

    Personally speaking, if I was in the house at the time id have no problem confronting him. These people should have the head kicked off them.

    That man in the OP deserves a medal for killing the thief in his house..


  • #105
    Temptamperu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,303 ✭✭✭Temptamperu


    My house just got broken into today, scummers got a tv and and a laptop and cash. All while i was sleeping and the ma was at the shop. i feel so fúcking guilty i didnt hear anything.
    i dont know if i would of liked to hear them because they had the biggest knife from the kitchen in the front room for protection but i wish i could of done something instead of feeling like a useless ****.


  • #106
    Lollipops23
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,420 ✭✭✭Lollipops23


    I read earlier that the burglar was armed with a knife and that he was stabbed with that in the struggle. If this is true, it's an open and shut case as far as I'm concerned. He broke into the house, with a weapon. One can only assume he intended to use it at some stage, therefore it's plausible that Cooke feared for his life.
    He was also aware that his wife and child were due home any minute (they seem to have arrived in the middle of it) so it's also feasible that he wanted to protect them and not his flat screen telly.
    I understand that the dead man's family are grieving-hell we're not responsible for what our relations do, so you can't blame them for being devestated at their loss. But they should have the cop on not to leave flowers at the scene of HIS crime.


  • #107
    Ditch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 809 ✭✭✭Ditch


    " Arrest " .....
    Manic Moran wrote: »
    Yes, it means to deprive a person of his liberty which, unless something has changed since I studied civics, is something which is not supposed to happen unless that person had done something to warrant arrest.


    OK. I was about to patiently explain to ye that he'd be released on Police Bail ~ and probably advised to go stay with friends for a while too.

    Only:

    Biggins wrote: »
    Vincent Cooke has been just released on police bail, its been announced.
    I hope all his family, neighbors and friends rally around him and show support. He deserves it.


    ;)


  • #108
    Ditch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 809 ✭✭✭Ditch


    Regarding the relatives of this type of person? I was reading a rather telling quotation from one such, only last night.

    Tony Martin - englands very own Padraig Nally; Only, Tony was first - shot Fred Barras when he caught him in his home, in the middle of the night .....

    " Fred Barras, the dead youth, had accumulated a lengthy criminal record, having been arrested 29 times by the time of his death at the age of 16, and had been sentenced to two months in a young offenders' institution for assaulting a policeman, theft and being drunk and disorderly. On the night he was killed, the teenager had just been released on bail after being accused of stealing garden furniture. Barras' grandmother, Mary Dolan, stated: "It's not fair that the farmer has got all the money and he is the one that took Fred away." :eek:

    'It's Not Fair; That Farmer Has Got All The Money' FFS! So, there's a shining example of the mentality one may expect to find amongst these people and their relatives.

    If you have what they haven't managed to steal yet? Well then, that'd Not Fair! They'll have the fucking boys round, with knives, to take it away from ye. Then they'll feel better.

    Un Fucking Real! :mad:


  • #109
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,895 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Ditch wrote: »
    " Arrest " .....




    OK. I was about to patiently explain to ye that he'd be released on Police Bail ~ and probably advised to go stay with friends for a while too.

    Only:





    ;)

    I still don't like it. Especially if the man had to post bail moneys.

    Even if he didn't, I still have great issue with the arrest in the first place. From the Police and Criminal Evidence act, Section 24.
    (1) Arrest without warrant: constables.

    (1)A constable may arrest without a warrant—.
    (a)anyone who is about to commit an offence;.
    (b)anyone who is in the act of committing an offence;.
    (c)anyone whom he has reasonable grounds for suspecting to be about to commit an offence;.
    (d)anyone whom he has reasonable grounds for suspecting to be committing an offence.

    (2)If a constable has reasonable grounds for suspecting that an offence has been committed, he may arrest without a warrant anyone whom he has reasonable grounds to suspect of being guilty of it..
    (3)If an offence has been committed, a constable may arrest without a warrant—.
    (a)anyone who is guilty of the offence;.
    (b)anyone whom he has reasonable grounds for suspecting to be guilty of it.

    What is the reasonable grounds to believe the homeowner was guilty of an offence to be arrested for to begin with? Homicide is not illegal, only murder and manslaughter are. The 'reasonable grounds' for murder or manslaughter to be suspected in this case was...?

    NTM


  • #110
    Ditch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 809 ✭✭✭Ditch


    Manic Moran wrote: »
    I still don't like it.

    Well, forgive me but; There's nothing I can do to change it to your personal preference.

    I have no power to alter english statute.


  • #111
    MOSSAD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 317 ✭✭MOSSAD


    What's the law here on confronting a burglar in your home? Was it recently changed in favour of the homeowner?


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  • #112
    someuser905
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 112 ✭✭someuser905


    Your home is your castle

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_doctrine

    Go ahead, make my day


  • #113
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    MOSSAD wrote: »
    What's the law here on confronting a burglar in your home? Was it recently changed in favour of the homeowner?

    I think this might be what your looking for:

    * http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-10692032
    * http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/dec/14/right-to-kill-self-defence

    Also on boards.ie good postings here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054964870


  • #114
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,895 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Ditch wrote: »
    Well, forgive me but; There's nothing I can do to change it to your personal preference.

    I have no power to alter english statute.

    None of us do, but that doesn't stop us opining!

    (Though I'm not actually sure how the events even match with English statute, which I quoted)

    NTM


  • #115
    steve9859
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,554 ✭✭✭steve9859


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    suicide_circus wrote: »
    So this guy Jacob armed himself with a knife and him and his mate go and break into a house, they are confronted by the homeowner and in the ensuing struggle Jacob is fatally stabbed with his own weapon.

    The homeowner has absolutely no case to answer here. Armed burglars break into his home and he defends himself successfully.

    No he doesnt is right, if thats what happened it will just be a formality.

    It has happened a few times this year in the UK. The homeowner has to be arrested, but there's no 'cuffs involved or anything like that, and once the investigation is done, no charges will be made. The latest was an Indian shopkeeper who killed an intruder - the case was dropped without charge this week.

    I guess the police have to check that the intruder wasn't killed after he was knocked out or otherwise restrained - even though the law and the benefit of the doubt is clearly now with the homeowner, that would still be murder under the 'appropriate force' rules.


  • #116
    AudreyHepburn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,673 ✭✭✭AudreyHepburn


    Firstly to make it clear, I am all for being able to defend your home and your loved ones.

    However I don't like this idea that you should be able to shoot/stab/beat to death anyone and everyone who enters your house illegally.

    For one, why on earth would you want to stoop to the level of a criminal?

    Second the person entering your home may have no intention of hurting or threatening you. It could be some kid/teenager after cash for example. Should we really have the right to kill/seriously injure in such circumstances?

    Maybe I am too soft but I don't want to live in a vigilante society. We have laws in place for a reason.


  • #117
    InTheTrees
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,900 ✭✭✭InTheTrees


    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    However I don't like this idea that you should be able to shoot/stab/beat to death anyone and everyone who enters your house illegally.

    Oh Audrey. There's some practical considerations to take into account.

    Unfortunately its not like the movies where you stick a knife an inch into someone and they immediately fall to the floor Dead.

    Unless you were to plunge the knife on the first attempt directly into their heart, the chances are they're going to keep fighting, most likely with increased intensity not less. In fact the chances are on the initial cut they're going to go crazy to make sure they get you before you get them again.

    However to convict the home owner of murder they would have to prove that he intended to kill.

    And it should be reasonably easy for the defense to convince a jury he was just trying to save himself.

    Just a thought.


  • #118
    Ditch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 809 ✭✭✭Ditch


    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    For one, why on earth would you want to stoop to the level of a criminal?

    :confused: Sorry; I just don't get this 'logic'. How is one " stooping to the level of a criminal " in defending ones self against one of them?

    That smacks of saying; " If attacked by a badger: Go with the flow. Let it munch on ye and even lay down, to better enable it to reach the bits it may prefer. After all; To Fight that badger would be to lower ones self to the level of a wild animal! "

    Sorry. You can go be a martyr to ye own morals. Fine. We'll all watch the results on You Tube.

    Me? Try invading My home and see what happens .....


  • #119
    westendgirlie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,125 ✭✭✭westendgirlie


    Temptamperu wrote: »
    My house just got broken into today, scummers got a tv and and a laptop and cash. All while i was sleeping and the ma was at the shop. i feel so fúcking guilty i didnt hear anything.
    i dont know if i would of liked to hear them because they had the biggest knife from the kitchen in the front room for protection but i wish i could of done something instead of feeling like a useless ****.

    I'm sorry to hear you were broken in to. Don't feel guilty! Your Ma would rather lose all her material possessions than lose you :)


  • #120
    Dotsie~tmp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,434 ✭✭✭Dotsie~tmp


    CRIMINAL LAW (DEFENCE AND THE DWELLING) BILL
    2010
    it shall not be an

    offence for a person who is in his or her dwelling, or for a person 5

    who is a lawful occupant in a dwelling, to use force against another

    person or the property of another person where—

    (a) he or she believes the other person has entered or is

    entering the dwelling as a trespasser for the purpose of

    committing a criminal act, and 10

    (b) the force used is only such as is reasonable in the circum-

    stances as he or she believes them to be—

    (i) to protect himself or herself or another person present

    in the dwelling from injury, assault, detention or

    death caused by a criminal act, 15

    (ii) to protect his or her property or the property of

    another person from appropriation, destruction or

    damage caused by a criminal act, or

    (iii) to prevent the commission of a crime or to effect, or

    assist in effecting, a lawful arrest. 20
    (4) It is immaterial whether a belief is justified or not if it is

    honestly held but in considering whether the person using the force

    honestly held the belief, the court or the jury, as the case may be,

    shall have regard to the presence or absence of reasonable grounds

    for the person so believing and all other relevant circumstances. 40

    (5) It is immaterial whether the person using the force had a safe

    and practicable opportunity to retreat from the dwelling before using the force concerned
    sers, a person who uses such force as is permitted by section 2 in the

    circumstances referred to in that section shall not be liable in tort in

    respect of any injury, loss or damage arising from the use of such force

    Everyone should know this. You dont need to retreat, you need only hold an honest belief in your mind that you or your property is in danger to use force. Even if that belief is incorrect (let a court disprove that, ha!).
    force against a person and against property. Subsection 7 points

    out that the use of force in the circumstances provided for in the

    section shall not exclude the use of force causing death 8.

    You can kill someone if force is justified. In the house OR curtilage about the dwelling. A lot better than what we had but still have to face a jury. Remember, you believed your life to be in danger of you do have to kill one.


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  • #121
    MrPudding
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,779 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    Naomi00 wrote: »
    It's not even murder anyway.

    Murder has to be pre-meditated, that burgalar was obviously in the wrong. It's unfair that the law is on scumbags sides as usual.
    Pre-meditation is not really relevent.
    Biggins wrote: »
    Standard procedure to arrest him - partly I suspect to see that any politically correct start crying.
    Yeah, I think this is pretty much the case. The arrest keeps it all nice and above board, give the accused all the requisite legal protections and give the police the authority to investigate.
    Biggins wrote: »
    Just for clarity:
    He might be charged with second degree murder if he had the killing weapon(s?) in his home and as such might have planned for such an eventuality as what happened.
    Not in the UK he won't. There is no such thing as second degree murder.
    Biggins wrote: »
    Manslaughter as a charge is more applied when something is done more in the heat of the moment BUT where in most cases, the killing weapon(s) haven't already been sought/bought and placed in an area as preparation for an eventuality.
    Murder is where there has been an unlawful death (actus reus) and the person that caused the unlawful death intended to cause that death or cause really serious harm (mens rea). Pre-meditation is not required, though it can be used as evidence of intent.

    Manslaughter is when someone carries out an killing, for which there is no lawful excuse, but lacks the intent to cause death or really serous harm. it is actually a really interesting area of law.

    In this particular case I think murder is quite unlikely, though you really never know. If it if found he acted in self defence then there would be no unlawful death, so there could be no murder. Reasonable force obviously comes into it, but I would suggest if you were attacked by a knife wielding scum bag and during a struggle he ended up being stabbed by his own weapon it would be hard to argue unreasonable force.

    Worst case if it was not considered self defence, so there was an unlawful killing, it is unlikely the CPS could show intent as the killing happened during a struggle, so again no murder.

    MrP


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