Jürgen Stark: Abandon the Croke Park Agreement, cut welfare

fliball123 · 14-09-2011 11:15AM

Godge wrote: »

missing the point, if your company said to you here is a 20% pay cut and there was another company down the road said hey, come over here, we will match your pay before the pay cut, what would you do? No brainer.

My comments were limited to high-earning mobile talent such as hospital consultants and top academics. It could possibly apply to a limited number of others as well - senior managers who have worked in the private sector, in-house lawyers and accountants etc.

and if those consultants walk away, good luck to you in your heart transplant.

Godge I have already taken a 15% pay cut an no pay rises in the last 5 years..The idea that there is another private sector company down the road not cutting wages is ridiculous...Have you not seen the figures 4 private cos going to the wall a week thus far from the start of the year to date.

So are you telling me that there are not a bunch of medical students chomping at the bit to start working to replace such overpaid people......Dont be fooled everyone both in public and private sector are dispendable.....The point is if these guys got say a 10% cut how many would we lose??? I'd hazard a guess at maybe 1 in 10 no more..You have to realise that people in the PS have put roots down here aswell.

Yeah and your point is that there is also a mobile high earners in the private sector aswell..but you want one rule for the private sector and one for the public which is not fair IMO

fliball123 · 14-09-2011 11:34AM

Godge wrote: »

Fair enough, but that is a policy choice that we should make. Do we want the highest social welfare rates in Europe or do we want a health service that can carry out heart transplants? Let us be up front about the decision and make it clear that we are preserving the right of some people to have a few cigarettes and beers every week at the expense of heart surgeons.

I think its past the point of what we want Godge its what we can afford at this stage...and we cannot afford to keep these guys on the wage they are on...Thats being up front about it..Cut their wage if they want to leave good as we will not have to pay their pension..If I have a heart attack between now and when we can afford this well thats just bad luck for me. I would rather have more money in my pocket so I can enjoy time with my kid and do things that I cannot at present afford to do and with future tax increases I will be able to afford less...We all have to die at some stage..whats the old saying...Nothing is certain in life except Death and taxes...or in Irelands terms Debt and taxes...We all die Godge I would rather have a better quality of life..thats being up front about it

Godge · 14-09-2011 11:42AM

fliball123 wrote: »

Godge I have already taken a 15% pay cut an no pay rises in the last 5 years..The idea that there is another private sector company down the road not cutting wages is ridiculous...Have you not seen the figures 4 private cos going to the wall a week thus far from the start of the year to date.

So are you telling me that there are not a bunch of medical students chomping at the bit to start working to replace such overpaid people......Dont be fooled everyone both in public and private sector are dispendable.....The point is if these guys got say a 10% cut how many would we lose??? I'd hazard a guess at maybe 1 in 10 no more..You have to realise that people in the PS have put roots down here aswell.

Yeah and your point is that there is also a mobile high earners in the private sector aswell..but you want one rule for the private sector and one for the public which is not fair IMO

No I don't want different rules. In the public sector to date, everyone has had a pay cut. In the private sector to date, some people (maybe even most) but not all have had a pay cut. My daughter, working in the private sector, has not had a pay cut.

My basic argument is that for the next stage of pay cuts (if they happen and that depends on Croke Park) in the public sector, there will have to be differential treatment as some grades are correctly paid and some high-level people could leave if we cut them too far. That is the way the private sector operates - according to the market. If you need to pay a key person a certain amount to keep him, the private sector company will do that and make an exception from pay cuts. They may even increase his pay, I know personally of one person who we tried to get in the last year, who stayed at his previous private sector employment because they increased his pay.

It is you who wants different rules. You want everyone in the public sector cut regardless and you want people in the private sector to be left alone.

Godge · 14-09-2011 11:53AM

fliball123 wrote: »

I think its past the point of what we want Godge its what we can afford at this stage...and we cannot afford to keep these guys on the wage they are on...Thats being up front about it..Cut their wage if they want to leave good as we will not have to pay their pension..If I have a heart attack between now and when we can afford this well thats just bad luck for me. I would rather have more money in my pocket so I can enjoy time with my kid and do things that I cannot at present afford to do and with future tax increases I will be able to afford less...We all have to die at some stage..whats the old saying...Nothing is certain in life except Death and taxes...or in Irelands terms Debt and taxes...We all die Godge I would rather have a better quality of life..thats being up front about it

Yes we can afford their salaries. There are around 2,000 medical consultants paid around €200,000. Say that another 15% pay cut is proposed. That would mean €30,000 pay cut per consultant. Say 10% of counsultants are in key positions or have key skills that are not easily replaceable. They avoid the pay cut. The cost is €6 million. Are you saying that we cannot afford €6 million to keep heart transplants and brain surgery going in this country? Get realistic here.

We are in a crisis but there are unexplored areas of revenue in areas such as property and land taxes, elimination of tax reliefs for pensions and other things, we have the highest paid teachers in the world and the highest social welfare rates in the world. There is plenty of money to be found so that we can afford the €6 million.

fliball123 · 14-09-2011 11:54AM

Godge wrote: »

No I don't want different rules. In the public sector to date, everyone has had a pay cut. In the private sector to date, some people (maybe even most) but not all have had a pay cut. My daughter, working in the private sector, has not had a pay cut.

My basic argument is that for the next stage of pay cuts (if they happen and that depends on Croke Park) in the public sector, there will have to be differential treatment as some grades are correctly paid and some high-level people could leave if we cut them too far. That is the way the private sector operates - according to the market. If you need to pay a key person a certain amount to keep him, the private sector company will do that and make an exception from pay cuts. They may even increase his pay, I know personally of one person who we tried to get in the last year, who stayed at his previous private sector employment because they increased his pay.

It is you who wants different rules. You want everyone in the public sector cut regardless and you want people in the private sector to be left alone.

And the same cuts have been happening in the private sector (or do you think your daughter is representitive of the whole private sector) but under the cpa further cuts to the ps are off the table thats where the different rule comes in. You also leave out the annual increments costing 1/4 of a billion a year to PS workers...i bet your daughter has not had a pay increase and even if she has how do my taxes go to pay for it??? Answer is they dont. So how does a private sector workers pay affect what I pay in tax...This is the whole argument...If you guys are saying you had a cut...when if fact these cuts are a contribution to paying your own pension..Welcome to the real world and then the tax payer has to subsidise such pensions whilst the majority of the private sector worker cannot afford their own. Then look at increments how much of the rest of your cut can be wiped away with that???

I dont want different rules for anyone..but we cannot afford to paying wages at the level we are...Trying to justify it against the private sector is invalid as if private sector get cut...there is less tax taken..meaning there is a bigger hole to fill..And I have repeated stated that everything needs to be cut..

Social welfare
Public services
increased taxes
and public sector pay,pensions and perks need to be cut..

But going forward 1 of these 4 due to the cpa is off the table..that is the only different rule setting between private and public sector at the moment..

fliball123 · 14-09-2011 11:57AM

Godge wrote: »

Yes we can afford their salaries. There are around 2,000 medical consultants paid around €200,000. Say that another 15% pay cut is proposed. That would mean €30,000 pay cut per consultant. Say 10% of counsultants are in key positions or have key skills that are not easily replaceable. They avoid the pay cut. The cost is €6 million. Are you saying that we cannot afford €6 million to keep heart transplants and brain surgery going in this country? Get realistic here.

We are in a crisis but there are unexplored areas of revenue in areas such as property and land taxes, elimination of tax reliefs for pensions and other things, we have the highest paid teachers in the world and the highest social welfare rates in the world. There is plenty of money to be found so that we can afford the €6 million.

Sorry no we cant we need to be cutting all of these little things aswell as teh big ticket items such as welfare..nothing should be sheltered..as I say its no longer about what we want its what we can afford.. Being realistic what part of 3 Euros for every 5 do you not understand...I would love to buy a big house out in howth with gardeners, chiefs and a trained up pole dancer..but I cannot afford it ..so I stay in my 3 bed attached house with my sh1tty garden..WHY because its what I can afford..The whole because we are worth it attitude in this country needs to be beaten out of some people..As I say cut their wage ..the school teachers too ..dont get me started on them..there 7 days for getting married leave entitlement...FFS

easychair · 14-09-2011 12:00PM

Godge wrote: »

No I don't want different rules. In the public sector to date, everyone has had a pay cut. In the private sector to date, some people (maybe even most) but not all have had a pay cut. My daughter, working in the private sector, has not had a pay cut.

My basic argument is that for the next stage of pay cuts (if they happen and that depends on Croke Park) in the public sector, there will have to be differential treatment as some grades are correctly paid and some high-level people could leave if we cut them too far. That is the way the private sector operates - according to the market. If you need to pay a key person a certain amount to keep him, the private sector company will do that and make an exception from pay cuts. They may even increase his pay, I know personally of one person who we tried to get in the last year, who stayed at his previous private sector employment because they increased his pay.

It is you who wants different rules. You want everyone in the public sector cut regardless and you want people in the private sector to be left alone.

Oh dear. Don't you realise that it's attitudes like yours which have contributed to Irelands predicament?

The private sector pays for itself, and any pay cuts or increases they have they dont ask you, me or anyone else to pay for. They pay for themselves.

The public sector are paid for by everyone else, and in the late Berties days got massive pay hikes to make them amongst the highest paid public sector workers anywhere in the world. The taoiseach (a public sector worker) got paid more than the president of the USA, and Irish government ministers got better pay and perks than most world leaders.

Now that Ireland is worse than broke, we still hear the public sector workers whinging about how unfair their lot is, how badly paid they are and so on.

It would be lovely to pay everyone in Ireland a minimum of €1 million per annum, and have no one on a salary of less than that. But realities are realities, and attitudes like yours will contribute to Ireland having to cut the pay of public sector workers even more deeply when the reality eventually hits home that ireland will have to live within its means, and is not able to spend €20 billion per annum it hasn't got, and will soon not be able to borrow from anywhere.

sarumite · 14-09-2011 12:02PM

Godge wrote: »

No I don't want different rules. In the public sector to date, everyone has had a pay cut. In the private sector to date, some people (maybe even most) but not all have had a pay cut. My daughter, working in the private sector, has not had a pay cut.

To be fair, this is by design. The private sector employers tend to prefer to make redundancies rather than pay cuts (though pay cuts are happening) where as the public sector workers chose a system whereby everyone shares the burdon a little bit but no one person takes a big hit. As such, its not really practical to compare on a like for like basis, since both sectors approach to austerity is different. I personally think the only real way of making a comparison is looking cumulitavely at losses (inlcuding both redundencies and pay cuts). It should aslo be noted that your daughter does not have a government back assurance of no further paycuts or job cuts, which in my opinion is the real inequality amongst private and public sector employess.

Godge · 14-09-2011 12:16PM

fliball123 wrote: »

And the same cuts have been happening in the private sector (or do you think your daughter is representitive of the whole private sector) but under the cpa further cuts to the ps are off the table thats where the different rule comes in. You also leave out the annual increments costing 1/4 of a billion a year to PS workers...i bet your daughter has not had a pay increase and even if she has how do my taxes go to pay for it??? Answer is they dont. So how does a private sector workers pay affect what I pay in tax...This is the whole argument...If you guys are saying you had a cut...when if fact these cuts are a contribution to paying your own pension..Welcome to the real world and then the tax payer has to subsidise such pensions whilst the majority of the private sector worker cannot afford their own. Then look at increments how much of the rest of your cut can be wiped away with that???

I dont want different rules for anyone..but we cannot afford to paying wages at the level we are...Trying to justify it against the private sector is invalid as if private sector get cut...there is less tax taken..meaning there is a bigger hole to fill..And I have repeated stated that everything needs to be cut..

Social welfare
Public services
increased taxes
and public sector pay,pensions and perks need to be cut..

But going forward 1 of these 4 due to the cpa is off the table..that is the only different rule setting between private and public sector at the moment..

easychair wrote: »

Oh dear. Don't you realise that it's attitudes like yours which have contributed to Irelands predicament?

The private sector pays for itself, and any pay cuts or increases they have they dont ask you, me or anyone else to pay for. They pay for themselves.

The public sector are paid for by everyone else, and in the late Berties days got massive pay hikes to make them amongst the highest paid public sector workers anywhere in the world. The taoiseach (a public sector worker) got paid more than the president of the USA, and Irish government ministers got better pay and perks than most world leaders.

Now that Ireland is worse than broke, we still hear the public sector workers whinging about how unfair their lot is, how badly paid they are and so on.

It would be lovely to pay everyone in Ireland a minimum of €1 million per annum, and have no one on a salary of less than that. But realities are realities, and attitudes like yours will contribute to Ireland having to cut the pay of public sector workers even more deeply when the reality eventually hits home that ireland will have to live within its means, and is not able to spend €20 billion per annum it hasn't got, and will soon not be able to borrow from anywhere.

Wait a minute, in your hurry to get off a rant, you need to consider a few things

(1) I used to work in the public sector in a previous job, I work in the private sector now, so don't keep referring to "you guys" and "public sector workers whinging". It is easy to dismiss fair comment by targeting the person making the comments. Just because I believe that some public servants are now correctly paid doesn't mean I am a public sector whinger. Just because I have my doubts about whether cutting public sector pay is the best way to solve the country's problems doesn't make me one of "you guys".

(2) There are plenty of people in the private sector who have not had a pay cut. Yes, construction has been wiped out and many service and retail industries have had to cut wages and jobs but there are thriving sectors. Farm income (you know that's a part of the private sector) is thriving. The pharmaceutical industry, especially the part in Cork has sailed through the crisis in pay terms. Ditto many of the other multinationals here.

(3) I have many times on these boards outlined a series of measures that can cut the €15 bn budget deficit (not €20 bn) to the required 3% level (in or around €3 bn) where you do not have to target public sector pay levels, social welfare rates or income tax rates so there are plenty of policy options. This doomsday scenario talk that we have to cut public sector wages at all costs or we will go under is wrong and is driven by selfish reasons. The real agenda of posters like yourselves is that we have to cut public sector wages so I don't have to pay more taxes. That doesn't mean you are right and it doesn't mean those are the correct choices.

(4) A lot of what I have said around here goes against my personal interests. I have consistently called for a property tax even though I own a house. I have questioned the need to cut all public servants pay even though that could mean more taxes on me. Leave aside your prejudices and consider the policy options in a realistic way.

Godge · 14-09-2011 12:22PM

sarumite wrote: »

To be fair, this is by design. The private sector employers tend to prefer to make redundancies rather than pay cuts (though pay cuts are happening) where as the public sector workers chose a system whereby everyone shares the burdon a little bit but no one person takes a big hit. As such, its not really practical to compare on a like for like basis, since both sectors approach to austerity is different. I personally think the only real way of making a comparison is looking cumulitavely at losses (inlcuding both redundencies and pay cuts). It should aslo be noted that your daughter does not have a government back assurance of no further paycuts or job cuts, which in my opinion is the real inequality amongst private and public sector employess.

Fair points but the FG/Lab coalition wants to remove 25,000 public servants by 2014 so you could easily make the argument that public servants have had to swallow both remedies. I know from an ex-colleague in the third-level sector that universities have had to manage with pay cuts for staff, a 6% cut in numbers and a 10% increase in students. Given that performance, a 25% increase in productivity, they might be forgiven for asking why they should take a further pay cut as they have already swallowed redundancies, pay cuts and increased work when there are others in the public sector who have not given as much and when there are other policy options such as increasing taxes or cutting social welfare.

sarumite · 14-09-2011 12:26PM

Godge wrote: »

The pharmaceutical industry, especially the part in Cork has sailed through the crisis in pay terms. Ditto many of the other multinationals here.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10122544

Three plants will be closed in the Irish Republic, leading to the loss of up to 785 jobs there.
Two Pfizer plants in County Cork will close and a factory in south Dublin.

As I said in an earlier post, some companies prefer to make job cuts rather than pay cuts. Saying that the pharmacuetical industry in Cork sailed through the cirsis in terms of pay doesn't really reflect the reality of the situation. The remaining staff may not have taken a paycut, but cumulatibvely the loss in pay (through the redundancies) is pretty large.

sarumite · 14-09-2011 12:32PM

Godge wrote: »

Fair points but the FG/Lab coalition wants to remove 25,000 public servants by 2014 so you could easily make the argument that public servants have had to swallow both remedies.

There is a big difference between not rehiring after someone retires (or possibly offering voluntary redundancies) and involuntary redundancies. Suggest they are the same remedy is disingenous.

Godge · 14-09-2011 12:34PM

sarumite wrote: »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10122544

Three plants will be closed in the Irish Republic, leading to the loss of up to 785 jobs there.
Two Pfizer plants in County Cork will close and a factory in south Dublin.
As I said in an earlier post, some companies prefer to make job cuts rather than pay cuts. Saying that the pharmacuetical industry in Cork sailed through the cirsis in terms of pay doesn't really reflect the reality of the situation. The remaining staff may not have taken a paycut, but cumulatibvely the loss in pay (through the redundancies) is pretty large.

http://www.idaireland.com/news-media/announcements/

Plenty of new jobs in the pharmaceutical industry in Cork included here so many of those jobs have already been replaced.

Plenty of jobs also in the medical devices sector, another area largely untouched by pay cuts.

I know that the software people have attempted to take advantage of the lower rates in the economy generally when hiring for the new jobs in the attached but I am not sure of the extent to which they have been successful.

fliball123 · 14-09-2011 12:37PM

Godge wrote: »

Wait a minute, in your hurry to get off a rant, you need to consider a few things

(1) I used to work in the public sector in a previous job, I work in the private sector now, so don't keep referring to "you guys" and "public sector workers whinging". It is easy to dismiss fair comment by targeting the person making the comments. Just because I believe that some public servants are now correctly paid doesn't mean I am a public sector whinger. Just because I have my doubts about whether cutting public sector pay is the best way to solve the country's problems doesn't make me one of "you guys".

(2) There are plenty of people in the private sector who have not had a pay cut. Yes, construction has been wiped out and many service and retail industries have had to cut wages and jobs but there are thriving sectors. Farm income (you know that's a part of the private sector) is thriving. The pharmaceutical industry, especially the part in Cork has sailed through the crisis in pay terms. Ditto many of the other multinationals here.

(3) I have many times on these boards outlined a series of measures that can cut the €15 bn budget deficit (not €20 bn) to the required 3% level (in or around €3 bn) where you do not have to target public sector pay levels, social welfare rates or income tax rates so there are plenty of policy options. This doomsday scenario talk that we have to cut public sector wages at all costs or we will go under is wrong and is driven by selfish reasons. The real agenda of posters like yourselves is that we have to cut public sector wages so I don't have to pay more taxes. That doesn't mean you are right and it doesn't mean those are the correct choices.

(4) A lot of what I have said around here goes against my personal interests. I have consistently called for a property tax even though I own a house. I have questioned the need to cut all public servants pay even though that could mean more taxes on me. Leave aside your prejudices and consider the policy options in a realistic way.

Right lets go through your points..

P1. First off nice rant..where have I ranted??? Sorry for the mistake of referring to you as a ps...You just seem so against cutting their pay at a time when we need to. Who is being paid correctly in the PS can you point me to any links here?? I never said you were a ps whiner?? if I did show me?

P2 As for the private sector..the evidence is there...We have how many more claiming the dole now as apposed to 4 years ago...it is up by over 350k people..how many of these came from the public sector??? less than 1% and they were contractors in the ps not full time , job security led employees. What about the fact that the envisaged income tax take has been down successfully every year in the last 4 (since austerity began) even do tax has been increased continuously over the last 4 years with less people paying due to the above mentioned job losses..So this means that people in the private sector overall are either getting less hours or less money..take your choice its still a pay cut..I aggree there are those in the private sector who have sailed through and you completely ignored my point that if Private sector wage is cut there is less income tax meaning more of a hole to fill ..what part of that do you not get?

P3 So its everyone else bar the public servants..are you sure not Jack OConnor...I accept I will have to pay more taxes either income/USC or by stealth...Why is it fair to do this and keep paying for sh1te like annual increments costing 1/4 of a billion a year...do you not see a discrepancy in this as fcuking Stevie wonder, Ray Charles and feckin helen keller can see there is a major discrepancy here. And yes I do not want to pay more taxes.. i am paying enough as is and what when you look at where my taxes is going ...we get fcuk all value for money for our taxes...The tax I pay for my Income where is it going??? As for right or wrong..You cannot expect people to pay more and more in taxes when public services will be cut so less service for more tax..how does that equate?? and also expect the people on the least in sociaty to take cuts and you guys be left untouched...So are you telling me thats right???? As for your suggestions..
well some are good some are bad, but it can be broken down to income vs expenditure.?? we are cutting all areas of expenditure bar ps pay..We will be increasing taxes to get more income...Why is it far to leave this portion of spend untouched.???

P4: So you want to put a property tax on people who are up to their T1ts in debt, in neg equity and struggling from week to week....and you want me to leave aside my prejudices and watch as everything is cut and taxes increased while the 300k are left alone awaiting their next pay increment...I dont know mate I dont know if your being real here we are broke..the country may well default depending on how markets react to Greece default..Look at the measures they have to take..50% pay cut for all PS workers...Be careful what you wish for

Godge · 14-09-2011 12:37PM

sarumite wrote: »

There is a big difference between not rehiring after someone retires (or possibly offering voluntary redundancies) and involuntary redundancies. Suggest they are the same remedy is disingenous.

unless a large company is closing completely, they generally look for voluntary redundancies first before going down the compulsory route. In essence by limiting protection against compulsory redundancies only until 2014, the government have gone the same route and said, if we don't get the voluntary numbers by then, we will have to look at compulsory redundancies.

easychair · 14-09-2011 12:37PM

Godge wrote: »

Just because I believe that some public servants are now correctly paid doesn't mean I am a public sector whinger. Just because I have my doubts about whether cutting public sector pay is the best way to solve the country's problems doesn't make me one of "you guys".

.

I have no idea how you judge someone is "correctly " paid. For me, the fact that Ireland needs to borrow €20 billion per annum more than it raises in tax to pay public sector employees and the unemployed, suggests that something is very far from correct.

On what basis do you judge it to be correct?

Godge · 14-09-2011 12:41PM

easychair wrote: »

I have no idea how you judge someone is "correctly " paid. For me, the fact that Ireland needs to borrow €20 billion per annum more than it raises in tax to pay public sector employees and the unemployed, suggests that something is very far from correct.

On what basis do you judge it to be correct?

Just because there is a deficit doesn't mean that public sector wages need to be cut. Total welfare bill including all programmes from all Departments is now close to €26 billion. Total public sector pay and pensions is around €17 billion. Traditionally they were about the same.

Let us say that we cut the pay and pensions bill to €10 billion, but the deficit went up because we cut income tax by €10 billion. Does that mean we have to cut public sector pay further? You cannot say just cut everything or increase taxes on everything. You must look at the policy options and decide the correct course of action.

sarumite · 14-09-2011 12:48PM

Godge wrote: »

http://www.idaireland.com/news-media/announcements/

Plenty of new jobs in the pharmaceutical industry in Cork included here so many of those jobs have already been replaced.

Plenty of jobs also in the medical devices sector, another area largely untouched by pay cuts.

I know that the software people have attempted to take advantage of the lower rates in the economy generally when hiring for the new jobs in the attached but I am not sure of the extent to which they have been successful.

If you add up the jobs for cork announed for 2011 and 2010, there was a total of 217 confirmed (with an additional five counts of expansions with unconfirmed jobs announced) for all sectors. The pharmaceutical jobs were not even enough to cover those who lost their jobs in Pfizer.

fliball123 · 14-09-2011 12:48PM

Godge wrote: »

Just because there is a deficit doesn't mean that public sector wages need to be cut. Total welfare bill including all programmes from all Departments is now close to €26 billion. Total public sector pay and pensions is around €17 billion. Traditionally they were about the same.

Let us say that we cut the pay and pensions bill to €10 billion, but the deficit went up because we cut income tax by €10 billion. Does that mean we have to cut public sector pay further? You cannot say just cut everything or increase taxes on everything. You must look at the policy options and decide the correct course of action.

Godge you have a point but Social welfare will be cut..There is no CPA insulating them from cuts?

wolfpawnat · 14-09-2011 12:56PM

fliball123 wrote: »

Godge you have a point but Social welfare will be cut..

As much as it terrifies me to acknowledge it, SW will take a large cut with the next few budgets, anyone who doesn't acknowledge that is in denial!

sarumite · 14-09-2011 12:57PM

Godge wrote: »

unless a large company is closing completely, they generally look for voluntary redundancies first before going down the compulsory route. In essence by limiting protection against compulsory redundancies only until 2014, the government have gone the same route and said, if we don't get the voluntary numbers by then, we will have to look at compulsory redundancies.

True....though the government is waiting 7 years from the onset of the crisis before making such actions, regardless of the any changing economic climate and regardless of its monetary position. If a large multinational did that, the board would be probably be considered incompetent.

fliball123 · 14-09-2011 01:00PM

wolfpawnat wrote: »

As much as it terrifies me to acknowledge it, SW will take a large cut with the next few budgets, anyone who doesn't acknowledge that is in denial!

I know it is unpalatable...but needs must we are all going to be doing less well off this time next year...So just putting all sh1t aside good luck to all the dolees and even PS employees (yes I know I know) I dont wish misfortune or pain on anyone it would be great if the debt was just written off and we found a 100 trillion barrells of oil in the ar$ehole of Leitrim but reality is we are fcuked we are just trotting behind Greece

wolfpawnat · 14-09-2011 01:04PM

fliball123 wrote: »

I know it is unpalatable...but needs must we are all going to be doing less well off this time next year...So just putting all sh1t aside good luck to all the dolees and even PS employees (yes I know I know) I dont wish misfortune or pain on anyone it would be great if the debt was just written off and we found a 100 trillion barrells of oil in the ar$ehole of Leitrim but reality is we are fcuked we are just trotting behind Greece

We all need to acknowledge that not one of us will get through this unscathed, but I find it interesting that the government always seems to get the begrudgery going between everyone in the Public/Private sectors as well as those on the SW to keep us from seeing the whole picture, they need to take a cut with us, a measly few percent off their salary means nothing when they can just fluff up their expenses!!!!

murphaph · 14-09-2011 01:04PM

fliball123 wrote: »

I know it is unpalatable...but needs must we are all going to be doing less well off this time next year...So just putting all sh1t aside good luck to all the dolees and even PS employees (yes I know I know) I dont wish misfortune or pain on anyone it would be great if the debt was just written off and we found a 100 trillion barrells of oil in the ar$ehole of Leitrim but reality is we are fcuked we are just trotting behind Greece

At least we have an actual export based economy worth saving. The poor Greeks and Portuguese have tourism and really very little else. They are truly fcuked.

fliball123 · 14-09-2011 01:07PM

murphaph wrote: »

At least we have an actual export based economy worth saving. The poor Greeks and Portuguese have tourism and really very little else. They are truly fcuked.

Maybe but IMO if Greece go under ..portugal will aswell and Ireland may be toppled aswell....I mean Greeces debts when they default will have to be shared out amoung the EU

easychair · 14-09-2011 01:20PM

Godge wrote: »

Just because there is a deficit doesn't mean that public sector wages need to be cut. Total welfare bill including all programmes from all Departments is now close to €26 billion. Total public sector pay and pensions is around €17 billion. Traditionally they were about the same.

Let us say that we cut the pay and pensions bill to €10 billion, but the deficit went up because we cut income tax by €10 billion. Does that mean we have to cut public sector pay further? You cannot say just cut everything or increase taxes on everything. You must look at the policy options and decide the correct course of action.

What it means is that ireland has to borrow +-€20 billion to pay salaries and dole. very soon, Ireland will not be able to borrow even €20, and when that time comes the recipients of the governments cash will have to take stark reductions in pay becasue the government will simply not have the cash to pay them.

Its simple!

sarumite · 14-09-2011 01:20PM

fliball123 wrote: »

Maybe but IMO if Greece go under ..portugal will aswell and Ireland may be toppled aswell....I mean Greeces debts when they default will have to be shared out amoung the EU

Ah, thank your gods for French banks

:P

fliball123 · 14-09-2011 01:23PM

easychair wrote: »

What it means is that ireland has to borrow +-€20 billion to pay salaries and dole. very soon, Ireland will not be able to borrow even €20, and when that time comes the recipients of the governments cash will have to take stark reductions in pay becasue the government will simply not have the cash to pay them.

Its simple!

All you need to do Godge is look at the 50% cut to ps pay in Greece thats what will happen

galway2007 · 14-09-2011 07:38PM

fliball123 wrote: »

Godge I have already taken a 15% pay cut an no pay rises in the last 5 years..The idea that there is another private sector company down the road not cutting wages is ridiculous...Have you not seen the figures 4 private cos going to the wall a week thus far from the start of the year to date.

So are you telling me that there are not a bunch of medical students chomping at the bit to start working to replace such overpaid people......Dont be fooled everyone both in public and private sector are dispendable.....The point is if these guys got say a 10% cut how many would we lose??? I'd hazard a guess at maybe 1 in 10 no more..You have to realise that people in the PS have put roots down here aswell.

Yeah and your point is that there is also a mobile high earners in the private sector aswell..but you want one rule for the private sector and one for the public which is not fair IMO

no wonder they cut your wages by 15% as you spend more time on this moaning and more moaning
stop moaning do more work and you might get a payrise in the next 5 years

noodler · 14-09-2011 07:44PM

Public Sector Pay and Pensions Billw was approx 9bn in 1999

This year it is going to be over 18bn.

(Gross)

Blanket pay cuts aren't the way but we are still spending too much.

Jürgen Stark: Abandon the Croke Park Agreement, cut welfare

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