Jürgen Stark: Abandon the Croke Park Agreement, cut welfare

murphaph · 13-09-2011 10:41PM

Godge wrote: »

Fair enough, but that is a policy choice that we should make. Do we want the highest social welfare rates in Europe or do we want a health service that can carry out heart transplants? Let us be up front about the decision and make it clear that we are preserving the right of some people to have a few cigarettes and beers every week at the expense of heart surgeons.

I believe our SW rates need serious reductions too, but not to preserve the pay of consultants we possibly still can't afford. I am in favour of cuts because Ireland doesn't generate the tax revenues for all this stuff.

Borrowing today and letting our children and their children pay for our dole and surgeons is grossly unfair.

wolfpawnat · 13-09-2011 10:43PM

Godge wrote: »

Well, yes, you won't qualify for rent allowance if you are living at home with mammy while claiming unemployment benefit.

Only a small percentage of people get it, and it includes those on disability, OPFP and JSA and JSB. Only about 30% of all of them get it! A 23 year old man on JSA with no dependants will NOT get it! But me, a 24 yo mum of one will.

thisNthat · 13-09-2011 10:44PM

Godge wrote: »

Well, yes, you won't qualify for rent allowance if you are living at home with mammy while claiming unemployment benefit.

True but I'm not on about you

What about people who are living independently of mammy and have to pay all bills with €188 only.

thebman · 13-09-2011 10:48PM

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Only a small percentage of people get it, and it includes those on disability, OPFP and JSA and JSB. Only about 30% of all of them get it! A 23 year old man on JSA with no dependants will NOT get it! But me, a 24 yo mum of one will.

A 23 year old on 188 Euro does not need rent allowance and could even save money while being on that amount TBH.

wolfpawnat · 13-09-2011 10:50PM

thebman wrote: »

A 23 year old on 188 Euro does not need rent allowance and could even save money while being on that amount TBH.

A person who joined the dole queue since April 2010 only receives €150.

I don't think many 23 year olds without dependants need it either, but I was merely stating the facts to the people saying that all people on SW get it.

Stheno · 13-09-2011 10:53PM

wolfpawnat wrote: »

The reduced to clear aisle is a great one for me But I tend to wait until I have to go into the city and go to Moore Street and the Liberties for my meats Can't lose!

True, I'm lucky to have a couple of great butchers near me, €40 a month does us for all the meat we need (two adults, two occasional teenagers) which is just under €10 a week, compared to the supermarket it's a great deal.

thisNthat wrote: »

True but I'm not on about you What about people who are living independently of mammy and have to pay all bills with €188 only.

Why do they not receive rent allowance? Is it because they are not renting for six months, or have a mortgage?

In a houseshare it should still be manageable though? I'd budget:

€75 a week for rent, leaving 113
€33 for food
€15 each for gas/esb
€5 for a payg phone
€5 for bins (based on tags)

That totals up to €148 leaving €40 for a single person, they might spend another €5 on internet access, leaving them with €35, and potentially putting by €10 a week for emergencies, leaves €25 for transport and other expenses?

Does that sound unreasonable?

I'm basing the €75 on monthly houseshare rent of €325 in Dublin, it would be lower elsewhere, perhaps €50 per week, leaving another €25?

Godge · 13-09-2011 10:59PM

Stheno wrote: »

I never said they were justifiable I pointed out they took a 30% paycut.

Certainly social welfare and pensions haven't been cut to that level, so it's an example of the higher paid taking a far greater cut than anyone on social welfare.

Exactly, this is the point I keep making. Everyone talks about how the "higher-ups" meaning someone higher than them should take a bigger cut. I point out that the higher-ups have already taken a bigger cut. The debate should be moving on. We have made initial across-the-board cuts on everyone be they secretaries general or single mothers, those initial cuts have been broad and crude not targeted.

Now that general cuts have been applied to everything from secretaries general and taoisigh to social welfare recipients, we should be focussing on what is the correct rate for whatever it is you are doing. So those doing the most difficult jobs should be paid the most, those doing the least difficult jobs should be paid the least and those on social welfare should be paid less than either of the above. If everyone would agree with that principle, we could actually look at fixing the system.

After that, it is a matter of how you fix it in a transparent way. If you need to earn 50k to do better than social welfare, then either all salaries should be at least 50k or social welfare should be cut. If you are a heart surgeon and we need to pay you 250,000 to keep you in the country doing heart transplants then that is what we have to do. It might mean cutting secretaries general by another 30%, cutting all social welfare rates by 20%, increasing nurse pay by 2%, cutting teachers pay by 10%, cutting single parent allowance once a child reaches secondary school, cutting a clerical officers pay by 20%, leaving the pay of a Grade 8 in the health service alone. Or the opposite of the above. The point is that the cuts have reached a stage where the simple solution of if you earn 70k you should be cut by 10% and if you are on social welfare you should be untouched is no longer the correct solution. The correct solution is one that differentiates.

thisNthat · 13-09-2011 11:02PM

For a single person in shared accommodation (In Galway) if your rent is over €255 per month - €63.75 per week, you are not entitled to rent allowance, Its higher for Dublin. Link HERE

Stheno wrote: »

True, I'm lucky to have a couple of great butchers near me, €40 a month does us for all the meat we need (two adults, two occasional teenagers) which is just under €10 a week, compared to the supermarket it's a great deal.

Why do they not receive rent allowance? Is it because they are not renting for six months, or have a mortgage?

In a houseshare it should still be manageable though? I'd budget:

€75 a week for rent, leaving 113
€33 for food
€15 each for gas/esb
€5 for a payg phone
€5 for bins (based on tags)

That totals up to €148 leaving €40 for a single person, they might spend another €5 on internet access, leaving them with €35, and potentially putting by €10 a week for emergencies, leaves €25 for transport and other expenses?

Does that sound unreasonable?

I'm basing the €75 on monthly houseshare rent of €325 in Dublin, it would be lower elsewhere, perhaps €50 per week, leaving another €25?

wolfpawnat · 13-09-2011 11:05PM

Godge wrote: »

If you need to earn 50k to do better than social welfare, then either all salaries should be at least 50k or social welfare should be cut.

Need to earn over 50k, pet I will get in total;

217.80 JSA + 1 child dependant for 52 weeks = 11325.60
20 fuel allowance for 38 weeks = 760
which is 12085.60 for this year

I do get rent allowance, but 200 a month comes from my pocket!

Also the SW has taken cuts in the last 2 budgets, but when you are at the bottom of the pile there is very little left to come off!

Godge · 13-09-2011 11:06PM

thisNthat wrote: »

True but I'm not on about you What about people who are living independently of mammy and have to pay all bills with €188 only.

Only claimed the dole once and that was maybe 25 or more years ago now, can't really remember, and I was living at home with mammy, was entitled to IR£1.43 or something like that, in or around an hour's pay. Got me off the dole quick enough. If only they had the same means test now.

thebman · 13-09-2011 11:09PM

wolfpawnat wrote: »

A person who joined the dole queue since April 2010 only receives €150.

I don't think many 23 year olds without dependants need it either, but I was merely stating the facts to the people saying that all people on SW get it.

Fair enough about the 23 thing, I forgot but there are plenty just above it that are entitled to the full amount.

I mean I would be entitled to it and am unemployed but have not applied as I think I should have a job shortly enough and have savings which is the other thing about people in this group. Most don't have mortgages or loans of any kind I imagine if they are like me and most of the people I know are and some of them are also unemployed.

Stheno · 13-09-2011 11:12PM

@ thisnthat: Fair enough, but currently in Dublin there are 782 houseshares on daft for €350 or less

Which increases the available cash to someone on €188 plus rent allowance to an additional €59 compared to my original figures, as €350 a month when calculated over 52 weeks is €80.79 per week rent allowance limit, but the claimant only pays €24 as opposed to the €75 I based my budget on.

So on €188 a week a single persons outgoings based on a budget I've used in the past,(if they lived in Dublin, in a houseshare, paying less than €350 a month rent would be:

Rent €24
€33 for food
€15 each for gas/esb
€5 for a payg phone
€5 for bins (based on tags)

Total of €97, leaving €91 for everything else after the essential basics are covered.

wolfpawnat if you are only supposed to cover €24 per week from your own pocket for rent allowance, that's €104 a week, are you paying extra due to you not claiming everything you should?

wolfpawnat · 13-09-2011 11:14PM

thebman wrote: »

Fair enough about the 23 thing, I forgot but there are plenty just above it that are entitled to the full amount.

I mean I would be entitled to it and am unemployed but have not applied as I think I should have a job shortly enough and have savings which is the other thing about people in this group. Most don't have mortgages or loans of any kind I imagine if they are like me and most of the people I know are and some of them are also unemployed.

If they joined the dole queue prior to April 2010, they are entitled to the full amount regardless of age.

Anyone who doesn't have dependant before 25 does not need a lot of money. They should be in college until at least the age of 21 or doing some sort of apprenticeship or something. NEVER should someone under the age of 21 be on the dole at all!!!

Godge · 13-09-2011 11:16PM

thisNthat wrote: »

For a single person in shared accommodation (In Galway) if your rent is over €255 per month - €63.75 per week, you are not entitled to rent allowance, Its higher for Dublin. Link HERE

The example given was in Dublin and suggested that the rent payable for a monthly houseshare is €325. I have recently helped someone move in to shared rented accommodation from their family home and can confirm that that figure is accurate for Dublin - in fact could be lower for some parts as this was a nice area close enough to walk to city centre. The maximum ceiling for a single person in dublin is €390 which seems generous based on my experience. So should be no problem in Dublin.

http://www.daft.ie/searchsharing.daft?s%5Bcc_id%5D=c19&s%5Ba_id%5D=&s%5Bmnp%5D=&s%5Bmxp%5D=250&s%5Broom_type%5D=either&search=1&s%5Bsearch_type%5D=sharing&s%5Bfurn%5D=&s%5Brefreshmap%5D=1&search_type=sharing&fr=default&refine.x=65&refine.y=20

A quick search on daft.ie finds 92 available properties for sharing at less than €250 in Galway for a single room, similarly it seems that there is no problem finding accommodation at the rent allowance rates bringing me back to the original point that unless you live with mammy, you won't have a problem claiming rent allowance.

Stheno · 13-09-2011 11:16PM

wolfpawnat wrote: »

NEVER should someone under the age of 21 be on the dole at all!!!

I'd argue differently as you do get school drop outs, people who are in state care, and need support, and may be on social welfare prior to the age of 21.

wolfpawnat · 13-09-2011 11:18PM

Stheno wrote: »

wolfpawnat if you are only supposed to cover €24 per week from your own pocket for rent allowance, that's €104 a week, are you paying extra due to you not claiming everything you should?

Rent allowance is not a set amount to the best of my knowledge, and I think it is assessed on a case to case basis. Also my partner is living here and though he is a student he has no grant and does not have an income though they will not believe me (I have provided them with paperwork, but to no avail!)

Godge · 13-09-2011 11:20PM

Stheno wrote: »

@ thisnthat: Fair enough, but currently in Dublin there are 782 houseshares on daft for €350 or less

Which increases the available cash to someone on €188 plus rent allowance to an additional €59 compared to my original figures, as €350 a month when calculated over 52 weeks is €80.79 per week rent allowance limit, but the claimant only pays €24 as opposed to the €75 I based my budget on.

So on €188 a week a single persons outgoings based on a budget I've used in the past,(if they lived in Dublin, in a houseshare, paying less than €350 a month rent would be:

Rent €24
€33 for food
€15 each for gas/esb
€5 for a payg phone
€5 for bins (based on tags)

Total of €97, leaving €91 for everything else after the essential basics are covered.

wolfpawnat if you are only supposed to cover €24 per week from your own pocket for rent allowance, that's €104 a week, are you paying extra due to you not claiming everything you should?

Out of the €91 euro per week, if you save €15, you will get the holiday away in Ibiza. That is €750, more than enough for a week in the sun with spending money, which is better than a lot of working people I know can afford.

http://www.ebookers.ie/shop/packageSearch?type=aph&search=Search&aph.leaveSlice.orig.key=DUB&aph.nonStop=false&aph.returnSlice.time=Anytime&aph.returnSlice.date=15/10/11&aph.leaveSlice.dest.key=Ibiza&aph.leaveSlice.time=Anytime&aph.rooms[0].chlds=0&aph.rooms[0].snrs=0&aph.rooms[0].adlts=2&aph.hotel.keyword.key=Ibiza&aph.leaveSlice.date=08/10/11&aph.ar.rt.cabin=C&aph.ar.rt.onlyShowRefundable=false&aph.ar.rt.flexAirSearch=false&aph.ar.rt.numChild=0&aph.ar.rt.narrowSel=false&aph.ar.rt.returnSlice.time=Anytime&aph.ar.rt.leaveSlice.date=08/10/11&aph.ar.rt.leaveSlice.orig.key=DUB&aph.ar.rt.nonStop=false&aph.ar.rt.leaveSlice.time=Anytime&aph.ar.rt.numSenior=0&aph.ar.rt.leaveSlice.dest.key=IBZ&aph.ar.rt.numAdult=2&aph.ar.rt.returnSlice.date=15/10/11

wolfpawnat · 13-09-2011 11:21PM

Stheno wrote: »

I'd argue differently as you do get school drop outs, people who are in state care, and need support, and may be on social welfare prior to the age of 21.

My apologies, I should rephrase, generally a person under the age of 21 should not be on it. I am friends with a girl/boy (going through hormone treatment at the moment, random I apologise) who was in foster care and got a degree in UCD. So there is help there for people from different socio-economic backgrounds.

Stheno · 13-09-2011 11:22PM

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Rent allowance is not a set amount to the best of my knowledge, and I think it is assessed on a case to case basis. Also my partner is living here and though he is a student he has no grant and does not have an income though they will not believe me (I have provided them with paperwork, but to no avail!)

I'd seriously considering escalating your appeals, half of the reason imo that we have welfare abuse here is that those who are entitled are too afraid to challenge the system, while those who have no qualms about doing so take advantage of everything you can.

I would argue however that your income claims are somewhat misleading as you do not include the rent allowance you get, if you were to reduce your welfare payments by €200 a month and class that as income you would have to say you live rent free, or if you include your rent allowance your total would probably increase by (estimate) €4-5k minimum, which brings you very close to what one person on minimum wage would earn even though you are not claiming all you should.

thisNthat · 13-09-2011 11:27PM

Godge wrote: »

A quick search on daft.ie finds 92 available properties for sharing at less than €250 in Galway for a single room, similarly it seems that there is no problem finding accommodation at the rent allowance rates bringing me back to the original point that unless you live with mammy, you won't have a problem claiming rent allowance.

Well I live in Galway city as I've no car so need public transport to get anywhere. So go back to daft.ie and Galway city and click on the link the says "Are you looking for places that accept rent allowance" and your 92 places soon goes down to just 9 properties. So I guess you want the 1000's of unemployed people in Galway who wish to get rent allowance to apply for these 9 properties???.
I could also save money by leaving the lights off and not turning on the heat or appliances :rolleyes:
Again don't be getting upset cause your wrong once in a while

McDave · 13-09-2011 11:33PM

Good OP Permabear. And is that some kind of record for the number of 'Thanks'?

Personally, I think we should impose another round of pay cuts in the public services (and protect actual jobs there), reduce social welfare entitlements, and go to town on professional fees. Added to that, service-related public authority charges which impact on small businesses should be reduced. And what about this so-called bonfire of the quangos?

Despite the talk, Ireland is still living ridiculously beyond its means. I don't think we can count on much real economic growth coming our way, so we're not going to reverse-amortise our way out of this one with some wheeze on GDP figures.

Godge · 13-09-2011 11:49PM

thisNthat wrote: »

Well I live in Galway city as I've no car so need public transport to get anywhere. So go back to daft.ie and Galway city and click on the link the says "Are you looking for places that accept rent allowance" and your 92 places soon goes down to just 9 properties. So I guess you want the 1000's of unemployed people in Galway who wish to get rent allowance to apply for these 9 properties???.
I could also save money by leaving the lights off and not turning on the heat or appliances :rolleyes:
Again don't be getting upset cause your wrong once in a while

I got 13 properties, when I refined the search, maybe four more landlords have seen the lie of the land since you checked:D.

The 1000s of unemployed people are not all looking for a place at the same time. Also not all of them are single and therefore would have a bigger rent allowance. Point is, if you look today, and you are the only one looking, you have a choice of properties, be it my 13 or your 9, do you really need a wider choice?

Don't believe I am wrong about anything. I pointed out that there are properties available in Galway below the rent allowance ceiling. You refined it by asking how many accept rent allowance today but there was still a choice for the person who became unemployed today. Let's look at some figures.

59 extra people became unemployed in Galway City between July and August 2011 - cannot find later figures on cso.ie. it would not be unreasonable to assume that only 10% of these are single people looking for accommodation immediately, the rest either married or living with mammy or living in their own house paying a mortgage or living in existing rental accommodation. That gives a result of 6. Assuming the monthly rate of increase is the same now, then that means there are six people chasing the 9 or 13 properties available. So no problem.

13-09-2011 11:59PM

As long as we refuse to own up to the fact that we pay too little tax we'll never solve this deficit problem.

:cool:

Sir Oxman · 14-09-2011 12:03AM

Godge wrote: »

Only claimed the dole once and that was maybe 25 or more years ago now, can't really remember, and I was living at home with mammy, was entitled to IR£1.43 or something like that, in or around an hour's pay. Got me off the dole quick enough. If only they had the same means test now.

They do.

ballyharpat · 14-09-2011 12:15AM

Crazy Horse 6 wrote: »

100 euro left over a week. Where you living at home with mammy?

No I wasn't living at home with Mammy. I have my own house and have a small mortgage on it, it is e25 a week, and that is the same I would be paying were I renting and getting rent allowance. The reason I have a small mortgage is that I have a small, affordable house and I paid off most of my mortgage when I was making big money in construction.
Another reason I had money left over and was able to live on so little was because I had plenty of time, I wasn't working :rolleyes::rolleyes: , so with my time I was able to cook all my own meals and shop for the best deals on everything. While I was unemployed I did between 15 and 30 hours voluntary work every week as well, because I did not like being unemployed and felt that I should be contributing to my generous country, since that same country was giving me JSA and that was coming from the pocket of the working people, the taxpayers.
Thanks for your concern though-did you move out of Mammys house, only to go from being a dependent of Mammy to a dependent of the state?:D

p1akuw47h5r3it · 14-09-2011 12:49AM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Dentist - Medical card covers a cleaning and tooth extraction only.
Medicine - 50 c charge per item with MC.
College Fees - ALL undergraduate course still have free fees for all students.
Schools allowance - http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Schemes/SupplementaryWelfareAllowance/Pages/BacktoSchoolClothingandFootwearAllowance.aspx#Rates3

I kno the debate has moved on from this but I have only read this far.

I just wanted to point out that if on SW, the person's child not only gets free tuition fees, but also does not have to contribute a student charge. Instead they pay 38 euro as an administration or something.

wolfpawnat · 14-09-2011 06:45AM

Stheno wrote: »

I would argue however that your income claims are somewhat misleading as you do not include the rent allowance you get, if you were to reduce your welfare payments by €200 a month and class that as income you would have to say you live rent free, or if you include your rent allowance your total would probably increase by (estimate) €4-5k minimum, which brings you very close to what one person on minimum wage would earn even though you are not claiming all you should.

My rent allowance goes straight into my landlords bank account, as I live in Dublin it is ridiculously high! It is about €700 a month (as I said I don't receive the money myself) so that would be approximately another €8400 a year.

I would say at this time that a person with a family to look after on minimum wage would actually get Rent Allowance and Family Income Supplement so those who are at the bottom of the pay scale are given assistance to prevent them coming to conclusion they would be better off in the SW!

RichardAnd · 14-09-2011 08:52AM

Deleted User wrote: »

As long as we refuse to own up to the fact that we pay too little tax we'll never solve this deficit problem.

:cool:

Do we though? I'd be more inclined to think that the problem is not too little tax but rather, to much spending.

Heavy taxes might bring in more cash but they also leave the average Joe with less to spend which means less growth, less employment and generally less wealth. The trick is to balance a reasonable tax level with a modest set of bills.

Godge · 14-09-2011 11:13AM

RichardAnd wrote: »

Do we though? I'd be more inclined to think that the problem is not too little tax but rather, to much spending.

Heavy taxes might bring in more cash but they also leave the average Joe with less to spend which means less growth, less employment and generally less wealth. The trick is to balance a reasonable tax level with a modest set of bills.

We pay the wrong kind of taxes. Taxation in Ireland is heavily dependent on income tax relative to the rest of Europe.

As we need to maintain a low corporation tax to counteract our geographical position on the edge of Europe, the correct option is to increase taxes on assets. Some assets are liquid and easily moveable (cash in bank) and cannot really be taxed any higher than they are now. The focus therefore should be on taxation of illiquid assets that cannot easily be moved (property and land). This penalises those who are not maximising return from their asset. For example, a tax on empty commercial premises would force commercial property owners to drop rents further to get anyone in and therefore encourages economic activity.

wolfpawnat · 14-09-2011 11:14AM

Godge wrote: »

We pay the wrong kind of taxes. Taxation in Ireland is heavily dependent on income tax relative to the rest of Europe.

As we need to maintain a low corporation tax to counteract our geographical position on the edge of Europe, the correct option is to increase taxes on assets. Some assets are liquid and easily moveable (cash in bank) and cannot really be taxed any higher than they are now. The focus therefore should be on taxation of illiquid assets that cannot easily be moved (property and land). This penalises those who are not maximising return from their asset. For example, a tax on empty commercial premises would force commercial property owners to drop rents further to get anyone in and therefore encourages economic activity.

I likey you thinking!!!!!

Jürgen Stark: Abandon the Croke Park Agreement, cut welfare

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