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Jürgen Stark: Abandon the Croke Park Agreement, cut welfare

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Comments

  • #332
    noodler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,832 ✭✭✭✭noodler


    wolfpawnat wrote: »
    The cost of living here is actually higher than 2007. Gas and Electricity have gone higher, food is more expensive, etc. Food in England is cheaper than here so of course they can have cheaper welfare rates and wages.

    Make my weekly shop cheaper and the cost of my electricity and heating lower and I will gladly take a significant cut to my SW! The government have decided to allowed a 20% mark up in prices so they have to accept that people will need more money to pay them!!!

    Apart from mortgage interest and energy prices, the vast majority of things on the CPI are cheaper now than in 2007/2008.


  • #333
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Stheno wrote: »
    Your link posted above ref. pensions clearly states that there is reform about to happen there, and that secretary generals have taken a 30% paycut in the public service, that's a good example of what you are looking for actually happening.
    Under the new scheme, which will apply to new entrants to the public service, there will be a maximum retirement age of 70 and a minimum pension age of 66. Pensions will be based on ‘career average’ earnings rather than final salaries.

    It will not apply to those currently employed - so no. They are not taking a hit.

    Secretary Generals - the question is - what do they earn now? Around the same as Enda as it happens....

    The cuts were token. Reforms will apply only to new entrants so won't come into effect until they retire in 20-40 years. And what new entrants - there a moratorium on PS appointments.


  • #334
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,007 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    A Primal Nut wrote: »
    How much money do you think that would save? It's tiny compared to the amount required.

    I often think challenging bonuses, payouts, tax breaks, etc; while justified morally, the motivation to challenge them is political rather than because they will actually generate a significant amount of money (they won't).

    I think a much better motivation is that bonuses have a negative effect on performance for most peoples jobs.

    http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_pink_on_motivation.html


  • #335
    bryaner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,180 ✭✭✭bryaner


    noodler wrote: »
    Apart from mortgage interest and energy prices, the vast majority of things on the CPI are cheaper now than in 2007/2008.

    Car insurance, house insurance and health insurance all up too, and I do the weekly shop and I can tell ya that's gone up as well..


  • #336
    woodoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,219 ✭✭✭woodoo


    wolfpawnat wrote: »
    Are you saying a child who is in this position due to a economic downturn should have to suffer nutritionally because you feel he should not get what he needs to develop correctly?

    No T Bone steak = malnutrition :D.

    Truthfully i can't believe what i'm reading. A stew is nutritious. The only time I eat steak is when i'm out for a meal once in a blue moon. I never spend money on steaks for the house. We have developed a strange view on what constitutes poverty in this country.


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  • #337
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,685 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    It will not apply to those currently employed - so no. They are not taking a hit.

    Secretary Generals - the question is - what do they earn now? Around the same as Enda as it happens....

    The cuts were token.

    From the article you quoted, if you'd only read it all?
    The Minister said a €200,000 maximum pay rate for new secretary generals of Government Departments had been introduced in June of this year, representing a reduction of almost 30 per cent. “I can tell the committee there’s no secretary general receiving a salary greater than that now,” he said.

    A 30% pay cut is not token, would you be happy with 30% less social welfare? Along with the increased taxes like the USC that higher earners pay?


  • #338
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    woodoo wrote: »
    No T Bone steak = malnutrition :D.

    Truthfully i can't believe what i'm reading. A stew is nutritious. The only time I eat steak is when i'm out for a meal once in a blue moon. I never spend money on steaks for the house. We have developed a strange view on what constitutes poverty in this country.

    I think you are taking what wolfpawnat said out of context. It was in response to a general people on SW have it nice and cushy theme and following a joking remark that I made that I would work for half my previous salary as I am getting mighty sick of chilli.
    The reference to ability to afford to purchase a t-bone was indicative of what we used to do when employed.

    But - As we were talking about managing on SW -does being on SW mean one must live in poverty?

    Some on here seem to believe we should live on bread and dripping :rolleyes:


  • #339
    Sir Oxman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,492 ✭✭✭Sir Oxman


    Stheno wrote: »
    From the article you quoted, if you'd only read it all?



    A 30% pay cut is not token, would you be happy with 30% less social welfare? Along with the increased taxes like the USC that higher earners pay?


    A 30% pay cut and still on 200k is token.
    Not one of those on that money are worth that. Not one.


  • #340
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Stheno wrote: »
    From the article you quoted, if you'd only read it all?



    A 30% pay cut is not token, would you be happy with 30% less social welfare? Along with the increased taxes like the USC that higher earners pay?

    When a 30% pay cut brings the salary down to 200,000 - yes it is a token and also shows how ridiculous their pre-cut salary was...and it only took til June 2011 to get that.

    So - do you think our top civil servants deserve to be paid the same as our elected leader? I would like really like to know why you think such wages are justifiable. I can't fathom how ...


  • #341
    woodoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,219 ✭✭✭woodoo


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Some on here seem to believe we should live on bread and dripping :rolleyes:

    And I'm not one of them. A balanced diet yes. Expensive cuts of meat regularly no.


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  • #342
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,685 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    I never said they were justifiable I pointed out they took a 30% paycut.

    Certainly social welfare and pensions haven't been cut to that level, so it's an example of the higher paid taking a far greater cut than anyone on social welfare.


  • #343
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Stheno wrote: »
    I never said they were justifiable I pointed out they took a 30% paycut.

    Certainly social welfare and pensions haven't been cut to that level, so it's an example of the higher paid taking a far greater cut than anyone on social welfare.

    I think we are interpreting it differently - am I right to think you see the actual percentage as significant? In which case yes - 30% cut is a lot.
    However, I see it in terms of real reduction in income. Taking 10,400 down to 9,776 or 40,000 to 35,000 are far greater hits.


  • #344
    bryaner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,180 ✭✭✭bryaner


    Stheno wrote: »
    I never said they were justifiable I pointed out they took a 30% paycut.

    Certainly social welfare and pensions haven't been cut to that level, so it's an example of the higher paid taking a far greater cut than anyone on social welfare.

    The last social welfare cut was meant to be 4.5%, but it ended up being 12.5% don't really know how something to do with adult dependent rate being cut, I went from €106.90 to €93.60, now believe me I miss €13.30 a lot more than they will miss 60-70k..


  • #345
    Sir Oxman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,492 ✭✭✭Sir Oxman


    Stheno wrote: »
    I never said they were justifiable I pointed out they took a 30% paycut.

    Certainly social welfare and pensions haven't been cut to that level, so it's an example of the higher paid taking a far greater cut than anyone on social welfare.


    As Bannaisdhe and Bryaner has said, the percentage does not equate across the range from ~200k to ~10k

    The hit is immeasurably harder and austere for the person living on 10k


  • #346
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Bannasidhe wrote:
    Fixed that.

    Don't do this "fixed your post" stuff, because...
    sarumite wrote: »
    I would much rather that you didn't "fix"my post to reflect an untruth. The fact that Ireland Inc is staying here is not a reflection on the reality of the government finances.

    ...it quite rightly annoys people. You could equally well have simply responded that you thought it was "most" not "some".

    moderately,
    Scofflaw


  • #347
    noodler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,832 ✭✭✭✭noodler


    bryaner wrote: »
    Car insurance, house insurance and health insurance all up too, and I do the weekly shop and I can tell ya that's gone up as well..


    There is a measurement for these things on the CSO.

    I'll just tell you the weekly shop is only one component of the CPI.


  • #348
    thisNthat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 298 ✭✭thisNthat


    syklops wrote: »
    Dole in the UK is 65GBP or about 71 euros a week. In Ireland it is 196 euro.
    In Ireland it's €188 not €196 and when that's your only form of income for all bills and rent etc its a big difference.


  • #349
    ArmaniJeanss
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,998 ✭✭✭✭ArmaniJeanss


    No matter how much of a cut the top civil servants or consultants take it will never be enough to move the debate onto the lower paid civil servant or onto welfare.

    Its a continuous fudge, if they were cut to €130K tomorrow any attempt to move on would be stymied by 'why dont all those people on €130K take a hit first to lead the way before the people on €40K get hit". Or Pat Kennys salary would get brought into it.


  • #350
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,685 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    I think we are interpreting it differently - am I right to think you see the actual percentage as significant? In which case yes - 30% cut is a lot.
    However, I see it in terms of real reduction in income. Taking 10,400 down to 9,776 or 40,000 to 35,000 are far greater hits.

    So what's changed your stance from earlier in the thread when you said:
    I am arguing for cuts to be applied across the board. No section to be exempt.
    ?????

    See
    here

    Seems to me your "across the board" argument for cuts is in terms of high earners, and not actually across the board.

    I was on JSB in 2005, it was 134 a week and is now 196 a week, which I was on this year for a month when I was between jobs, that's approximately a 41% increase in six years, cost of living has not risen anywhere near that amount as numerous people have pointed out.

    I'd suspect there is plenty of scope for further cuts in both social welfare, and public sector payments, plenty of private sector companies have imposed pay cuts on their employees.


  • #351
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    thisNthat wrote: »
    In Ireland it's €188 not €196 and when that's your only form of income for all bills and rent etc its a big difference.


    Have you never heard of rent allowance? That is the first big lie in your post. Fuel allowance is the second.


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  • #352
    wolfpawnat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,124 ✭✭✭wolfpawnat


    noodler wrote: »
    Apart from mortgage interest and energy prices, the vast majority of things on the CPI are cheaper now than in 2007/2008.

    Meat is actually more expensive in supermarkets a lot of the time I have noticed too!
    woodoo wrote: »
    No T Bone steak = malnutrition :D.

    Truthfully i can't believe what i'm reading. A stew is nutritious. The only time I eat steak is when i'm out for a meal once in a blue moon. I never spend money on steaks for the house. We have developed a strange view on what constitutes poverty in this country.

    Haha talk about selective reading. :rolleyes:I stated to another poster that I am not eating T-Bone steak, only mince and chicken. He stated children don't need meat and I stated that to give children what is recommended for them on a nutritional scale is to include meat! I would be shocked if my toddler had the ability to eat t-bone steak, not that I have checked. He tends to eat about a fistful of food at any time! So to fit a steak in would be damn impressive.

    Do not quote peoples posts if you are not going to quote them accurately!


  • #353
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,685 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    wolfpawnat wrote: »
    Meat is actually more expensive in supermarkets a lot of the time I have noticed too!

    I refuse to buy meat in a supermarket and look for a decent butcher instead, tends to work out much cheaper.


  • #354
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    murphaph wrote: »
    The whole thing about our top heart surgeons leaving if their pay is touched....well, perhaps Ireland can't actually afford top heart specialists. Most countries in the world can't. Rich countries can.


    Fair enough, but that is a policy choice that we should make. Do we want the highest social welfare rates in Europe or do we want a health service that can carry out heart transplants? Let us be up front about the decision and make it clear that we are preserving the right of some people to have a few cigarettes and beers every week at the expense of heart surgeons.


  • #355
    wolfpawnat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,124 ✭✭✭wolfpawnat


    Godge wrote: »
    Have you never heard of rent allowance? That is the first big lie in your post. Fuel allowance is the second.

    Not everyone on SW is eligible for either. It is not automatic!


  • #356
    Sir Oxman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,492 ✭✭✭Sir Oxman


    Godge wrote: »
    Have you never heard of rent allowance? That is the first big lie in your post. Fuel allowance is the second.

    Are we talking of unemployed people on rent allowance (either 12% or 20% I can't find the report link) or are we discussing everybody in receipt of SW benefits? the same with fuel allownance.
    I ask because everyone gets lumped into 'the dole' on these threads when 'the dole' is ~4billion out of the 21+ billion SW budget.

    It should be unnecessary to remind people that 300k plus working people have landed on 'the dole' in the past three years some of whom now their only income is the social insurance fund they paid into all of their working lives.
    (That's not pointed at you, but everyone who says 'the dole' should be this, that and the other.)


  • #357
    bryaner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,180 ✭✭✭bryaner


    noodler wrote: »
    There is a measurement for these things on the CSO.

    I'll just tell you the weekly shop is only one component of the CPI.

    One component on the CPI, and one very important component per week for a family of 4..


  • #358
    wolfpawnat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,124 ✭✭✭wolfpawnat


    Stheno wrote: »
    I refuse to buy meat in a supermarket and look for a decent butcher instead, tends to work out much cheaper.

    The reduced to clear aisle is a great one for me ;) But I tend to wait until I have to go into the city and go to Moore Street and the Liberties for my meats :) Can't lose! :D


  • #359
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    I 'fixed' where you said some retired staff are not being replaced to most. 'Some' implies a lesser number than the more accurate 'most'. How is that an untruth?

    Do you have hard figures for this? Teachers and nurses are being replaced but I am not sure whether it is some or most are not being replaced as I do not have the figures.


  • #360
    thisNthat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 298 ✭✭thisNthat


    Godge wrote: »
    Have you never heard of rent allowance? That is the first big lie in your post. Fuel allowance is the second.
    Not everyone is entilted to rent allowance and fuel allowance. You don't automatically get rent allowance and fuel allowance once your on social welfare, which means some unemployed people are "ONLY" entitled to €188 per week. Don't be getting upset and aggressive cause your wrong once in a while :D


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  • #361
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    thisNthat wrote: »
    Not everyone is entilted to rent allowance and fuel allowance. You don't automatically get rent allowance and fuel allowance once your on social welfare, which means some unemployed people are "ONLY" entitled to €188 per week. Don't be getting upset and aggressive cause your wrong once in a while :D


    Well, yes, you won't qualify for rent allowance if you are living at home with mammy while claiming unemployment benefit.


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