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Jürgen Stark: Abandon the Croke Park Agreement, cut welfare

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Comments

  • #182
    HellFireClub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,912 ✭✭✭HellFireClub


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    No - I WANT A JOB. I want to be allowed to pursue the profession I trained hard and long for. I cannot because our austerity measures include cutting the jobs of front-line staff in the public services - no matter what government says.

    I am complaining at the portrayal of people like me as 'spongers' by some commentators here and the utter lack of compassion or understanding shown to those who despite having done the right thing - find themselves at the mercy of the SW system.

    I was in your exact situation until recently, the only way I could get out of it was self employment, which is ten times harder when you are on the dole than under any other, more normal, circumstances...

    The current system, as it is administered by the Dept. of Social Protection, is designed to keep people out of work and in a permanent state of dependency and abject hoplessness.


  • #183
    RedXIV
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,555 ✭✭✭RedXIV


    HellFireClub wrote: »
    I was in your exact situation until recently, the only way I could get out of it was self employment, which is ten times harder when you are on the dole than under any other, more normal, circumstances...

    The current system, as it is administered by the Dept. of Social Protection, is designed to keep people out of work and in a permanent state of dependency and abject hoplessness.

    Unfortunately this is very true. After College, myself and a group of others attempted to go the self employed route and found it incredibly difficult to do.

    Best of luck with your enterprise!


  • #184
    HellFireClub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,912 ✭✭✭HellFireClub


    RedXIV wrote: »
    Unfortunately this is very true. After College, myself and a group of others attempted to go the self employed route and found it incredibly difficult to do.

    Best of luck with your enterprise!

    I don't want to drag the thread off the discussion at hand, but I can tell you that in this country, if you try to get yourself off state dependency and try to start up a business, you are treated as a deviant. You'd get more thanks for staying on the dole and coming down once a month and standing in the depressing queue and filling in your little form at the hatch and doing the same every month on a completely open ended basis.

    The whole system is hopelessly dysfunctional, it's not possible to describe how utterly backwards the whole thing is, in relation to life on the dole, if you try to start up a job for yourself.


  • #185
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Monty Burnz wrote: »
    I don't think anynody - anybody - would portray the likes of you and Wolf as spongers. The spongers are the people who have never worked, or those who work and claim the dole at the same time.

    Sadly, Monty - not everyone makes the distinction.


  • #186
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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  • #187
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    This is a long post, so please forgive me if I only address a few of your points.
    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Agree - But we also created an elite class who believe they are 'entitled' to 'earn' huge salaries paid from the public purse.
    I think the PS salaries thing is indeed a much bigger issue than SW. And it's not just the people at the top who are making a killing.
    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Close the tax loopholes. Stop bringing in short-sighted tax initiatives and schemes like the SSIA. Much of the building boom was fed by tax incentives aimed at developers - now many of those properties are in NAMA? All US citizens are liable for federal tax regardless of country of residence - why not all Irish citizens? Move your money abroad - but give up your citizenship.
    The problem with this is that a lot of wealthy people would immediately up sticks give up their citizenship. US citizenship is treasured for practical reasons. Irish citizenship is just a point of pride, at best. Any other EU citizenship is just as useful and may confer other benefits. For example you pay no CGT in Portugal or Belgium as I understand it, which would be very advantageous to those with a lot of assets. And once they are gone, you can say good buy to whatever tax they did pay, plus their spending power, plus whatever they might invest in Irish business.
    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    - in the 1930s the country had come out of nearly two decades of war, was bankrupt, was servicing a debt to the UK until FF came to power, saw a flood of 'old' money transferred to the UK after independence and it was the height of the Great Depression. So for comparison purposes the 1930s don't really work.
    The 30s was just a date I picked out of the air. Think middle class in the UK a hundred years ago. Or in the US a hundred years ago, or whatever. The point is that the 'poor' in Ireland today have access to travel, knowledge, education, healthcare and all sorts of things at levels undreamed of by the middle class in the past. They are 'poor' only in relative terms, and we will always have relative poor.
    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Rather than make genuine improvements in our national services - government decided to award everyone in the country more money - with themselves and their advisors on exponentially more.
    Yup, classic Fianna Failure mismanagement and vote buying. They did it in the 70s and ruined us for the 80s. They did it in the 2000s and ruined us for god knows how long. And they will do it again when the Irish electorate, with characteristic amnesia, votes them back in again in the future. And the public will be surprised all over again the next time they ruin us.
    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    We have no choice but to pay - however, the method of raising the funds at the moment is to primarily target those who have very little and those who are just managing while those those who have a lot cannot be touched due to 'contractual' reasons, or they will take there money elsewhere or for what ever other reason is trotted out.
    ALL must share equally. We are not seeing that. We are seeing the existence of a protected elite. This wealthy elite simply did not exist in Ireland in the 1930s - or if it did - it was not publicly funded.
    The tax rises and cuts have not primarily targeted the unemployed and the pensioners - they've got off almost totally untouched. It's the people in the middle who have borne the overwhelming brunt of the crash.
    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Current government policy - which is in effect no different from the previous government's policy is compounding the divide between the haves and the have-nots while creating an intermediate category of the haves-for-nows.
    I disagree. They are dragging down the middle so that we have a class of working poor families who have less than the career dolers, only they work 40 hours a week for the privilege.
    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    The State did not invest in the country when we thought we had money...<snip>
    Yup, more mismanagement.
    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Current government policy is compounding those mistakes, while there is a growing 'Us Vs Them' tendency (the employed Vs the Unemployed, private Vs public sector) that is very worrying. Our society is starting to crumble - which is what the UNCTD report warns re:austerity measures) while we bicker amongst ourselves and those that caused this mess continue to be insulated from the repercussions.
    The UNCTD report does not apply to us. I don't know to what extent to bore you with economic details here, but let me just say that their arguments for deficit spending do not apply to countries that are already bankrupt - they apply to countries that still have scope to borrow. Of course, that's if you assume that they are correct in the first place, and many disagree.
    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    While we argue amongst ourselves, who is watching those in control?

    You'd think we'd have worked out about Divide and Conquer as a tactic by now...
    We are entering conspiracy theory territory here.
    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    We are a country - not an economy. Is your whole family life based around your income/expenditure or is there more to it? There is more to a society then the economy - there is quality of life for all citizens. There should also be the will of the government to ensure all citizens are treated equally - not show such blatant favouritism. Assuming you have kids - do you favour one over the others? Is it Johnny and Mary were caught slogging apples. Johnny's pocket money is stopped but Mary's get's to keep 90% of hers?
    no question of favouring Johnny over Mary in our system - we massively favour the unemployed, the pensioners and those unable to work by confiscating wealth from those who produce it and giving it to them. It's pretty clear which way the favouritism works.

    It's more like a situation where Johnny has a job and Mary doesn't (for whatever reason), and every day when Johnny comes home with a tenner, Dad takes four quid off him to give to Mary. Due to tax rises etc., Johnny comes home and says, "Dad, I only got paid 8 euro today," and Dad still takes 4 euro from Johnny to give to Mary, instead of cutting a euro from Mary's cut so that Johnny still sees a bit of a difference between working and not working.


  • #188
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #189
    Sir Oxman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,492 ✭✭✭Sir Oxman


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Sadly, Monty - not everyone makes the distinction.


    Neither does he/she.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=74354586&postcount=99


  • #190
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    gambiaman wrote: »
    Neither does he/she.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=74354586&postcount=99

    What?? :confused:

    Where do I state that anyone on the dole is a sponger in that post?

    Any chance of an apology?


  • #191
    Sir Oxman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,492 ✭✭✭Sir Oxman


    Monty Burnz wrote: »
    What?? :confused:

    Where do I state that anyone on the dole is a sponger in that post?

    Any chance of an apology?

    "The vast majority have not only enough for their basic needs, they have plenty left over for sun holidays, the bookies, cigarettes and whatever else floats their boats."


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  • #192
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    gambiaman wrote: »
    "The vast majority have not only enough for their basic needs, they have plenty left over for sun holidays, the bookies, cigarettes and whatever else floats their boats."

    So if someone is on the dole and they spend money on anything other than shelter and food, you think they are a sponger? :confused:


  • #193
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Monty Burnz wrote: »

    The problem with this is that a lot of wealthy people would immediately up sticks give up their citizenship. US citizenship is treasured for practical reasons. Irish citizenship is just a point of pride, at best. Any other EU citizenship is just as useful and may confer other benefits. For example you pay no CGT in Portugal or Belgium as I understand it, which would be very advantageous to those with a lot of assets. And once they are gone, you can say good buy to whatever tax they did pay, plus their spending power, plus whatever they might invest in Irish business.

    If their Irish citizenship is a mere 'convenience' perhaps we are better off without them? I discussed this idea with my brother who is very a wealthy businessman resident on the Continent with Irish/Swiss/German passports -but he considers himself Irish. He had no issue with paying tax simply for being Irish in exchange for voting rights - his income is not earned in Ireland.
    The 30s was just a date I picked out of the air. Think middle class in the UK a hundred years ago. Or in the US a hundred years ago, or whatever. The point is that the 'poor' in Ireland today have access to travel, knowledge, education, healthcare and all sorts of things at levels undreamed of by the middle class in the past. They are 'poor' only in relative terms, and we will always have relative poor.

    We have also always had elitism, clientism and social injustice - doesn't mean we cannot strive for a more equatable society.
    Yup, classic Fianna Failure mismanagement and vote buying. They did it in the 70s and ruined us for the 80s. They did it in the 2000s and ruined us for god knows how long. And they will do it again when the Irish electorate, with characteristic amnesia, votes them back in again in the future. And the public will be surprised all over again the next time they ruin us.

    Oh God don't.... I have nightmares about the return of FF!
    The tax rises and cuts have not primarily targeted the unemployed and the pensioners - they've got off almost totally untouched. It's the people in the middle who have borne the overwhelming brunt of the crash.

    I disagree. They are dragging down the middle so that we have a class of working poor families who have less than the career dolers, only they work 40 hours a week for the privilege.

    I agree - the middle income bracket is targeted more than anyone. I am advocating equal treatment - we all give without exception an amount which is proportionally equal relative to income - a tenner from 188 is proportionally greater than 10,000 from 100,000 (not being an economist I do not have the language to describe what I mean so I hope that makes sense)
    We are entering conspiracy theory territory here.
    More Political Theory really.
    no question of favouring Johnny over Mary in our system - we massively favour the unemployed, the pensioners and those unable to work by confiscating wealth from those who produce it and giving it to them. It's pretty clear which way the favouritism works.

    It's more like a situation where Johnny has a job and Mary doesn't (for whatever reason), and every day when Johnny comes home with a tenner, Dad takes four quid off him to give to Mary. Due to tax rises etc., Johnny comes home and says, "Dad, I only got paid 8 euro today," and Dad still takes 4 euro from Johnny to give to Mary, instead of cutting a euro from Mary's cut so that Johnny still sees a bit of a difference between working and not working.

    Is the current system not more akin to Johnny earns 10 euro a week. Dad takes 4 euro from that. Dad pays Mam and himself 3 euro and Mary gets 50 cent. Johnny is cut back to 8 euro - Dad takes 4.50, pays himself and Mam 2.90 and Mary gets 20 cent? Jurgan next door gets IOU for 20 euro - Dad borrows 40 euro from Pierre....


  • #194
    Sir Oxman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,492 ✭✭✭Sir Oxman


    Monty Burnz wrote: »
    So if someone is on the dole and they spend money on anything other than shelter and food, you think they are a sponger? :confused:

    They are your words in that post not mine, so no.
    I'm tired of lazy stuff like that being routinely posted the millisecond a thread on cutting SW begins, 'the vast majority' followed by 'sun holidays', 'fags', 'booze' all silly buzzwords which are not applicable to 'the vast majority' unless you personally know the 'vast majority' of unemployed workers.


  • #195
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    gambiaman wrote: »
    They are your words in that post not mine, so no.
    I'm tired of lazy stuff like that being routinely posted the millisecond a thread on cutting SW begins, 'the vast majority' followed by 'sun holidays', 'fags', 'booze' all silly buzzwords which are not applicable to 'the vast majority' unless you personally know the 'vast majority' of unemployed workers.
    Wait a minute:

    1. You posted that I did not distinguish between spongers and non-spongers on the dole.

    2. When challenged to prove this, you quote a post where I was arguing that the amount of money paid to those on the dole is sufficient to cover not only their basic needs, but allows them money to pay for luxuries too.

    3. When I point out that this means that you are interpreting that to mean that they are spongers, you just say 'no' and come out with some unrelated waffle. :confused:

    So can I have my apology now please?


  • #196
    Sir Oxman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,492 ✭✭✭Sir Oxman


    Monty Burnz wrote: »
    Wait a minute:

    1. You posted that I did not distinguish between spongers and non-spongers on the dole.

    2. When challenged to prove this, you quote a post where I was arguing that the amount of money paid to those on the dole is sufficient to cover not only their basic needs, but allows them money to pay for luxuries too.

    3. When I point out that this means that you are interpreting that to mean that they are spongers, you just say 'no' and come out with some unrelated waffle. :confused:

    So can I have my apology now please?


    Oops, I will apologise for picking you up on the 'sponger' 'non-sponger' differentiation.
    My reply to Bannasidhe about you was inaccurate in that case.

    I will stand over my subsequent points - there are a lot of terribly misinformed posts (yours that I linked to included) painting a very broad brush to bolster arguments when the subject of SW cuts arise.


  • #197
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Dentist - Medical card covers a cleaning and tooth extraction only.
    Medicine - 50 c charge per item with MC.
    College Fees - ALL undergraduate course still have free fees for all students.
    Schools allowance - http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Schemes/SupplementaryWelfareAllowance/Pages/BacktoSchoolClothingandFootwearAllowance.aspx#Rates3


    For someone working

    Cleaning - 65 euro
    Extraction - 100 euro
    Medicine - 120 euro per month
    College Fees - 2,000 euro per year (not paid by those on grant)


    Imagine two children at college, another one with asthma medication every month, and a fourth with bad teeth. For someone on 50k a year, that would put them well below social welfare.


  • #198
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Dannyboy83 wrote: »
    I cannot quote Scofflaw's post as the thread is locked, so I'm simply going to provide a link for anyone interested:
    Public Sector Pay Pyramid
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=63181034&postcount=9

    We frequently hear many in the public sector claim that they are not overpaid, or not by much.
    In many cases - this is true.

    Reforms should start by flattening out the public pay pyramid.

    When Public servants on this forum hear people calling for reductions in the Public Sector Pay & Pensions bill, they are gripped with terror because they imagine they will be taking a hefty paycut.
    They won't. The senior or middle manager will - but they'd rather keep the ordinary PS workers ignorant of that little fact.

    Wrong, the managers at the top - those over €130,000 are overpaid, many of the middle managers at 80-100k are correctly paid.

    The real problem is where so many of the public servants are - long-serving nurses, gardai, teachers and prison officers are paid way too much by international standards. Clerical Officers earning 35,000 when a private sector equivalent would be lucky to earn 20,000 are another example of the overpaid.


  • #199
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    gambiaman wrote: »
    Oops, I will apologise for picking you up on the 'sponger' 'non-sponger' differentiation.
    My reply to Bannasidhe about you was inaccurate in that case.
    Ok, that's fair enough. Much respect.


  • #200
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    To me these two statements from our esteemed leaders sum up the divide:
    Justice Minister frustrated by Drumm response to Anglo investigation
    Wednesday, September 07, 2011 - 12:14 PM

    Justice Minister Alan Shatter said today that he is disappointed that the former chief executive of Anglo Irish Bank has not co-operated with a Garda inquiry into the bank.

    Minister Shatter said that it is frustrating that David Drumm has not co-operated with the Gardaí.


    Read more: http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/justice-minister-frustrated-by-drumm-response-to-anglo-investigation-519540.html#ixzz1XlDROy7M

    600 inspectors track benefit cheats
    Monday, September 12, 2011 - 04:46 PM


    Ms Burton said social welfare fraud is often perceived as a victimless crime but undermines public confidence.

    “You need to target the areas that are most at risk and you need to send out a message that fraud is taken absolutely seriously in this country, that it is not tolerated,” said Ms Burton.

    “There is no such thing as an acceptable level of fraud.

    “Any euro of fraud taken out of this Department is at the cost of somebody like an old age pensioner and that is not acceptable.”



    Read more: http://www.examiner.ie/breakingnews/ireland/600-inspectors-track-benefit-cheats-520248.html#ixzz1XlDka7p3


    Not ONE banker has yet to be prosecuted ...apparently fraud will be tolerated depending on how much one took.


  • #201
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    No - I WANT A JOB. I want to be allowed to pursue the profession I trained hard and long for. I cannot because our austerity measures include cutting the jobs of front-line staff in the public services - no matter what government says.


    I would love to have a job in the profession I trained hard and long for. But that is not always possible. You have to change. If that wasn't the case, you would still have blacksmiths going around telling us that they want a job in the profession they trained for.

    As for those trained for jobs in the public service, I work with a couple of trained teachers who cannot get jobs teaching but turn their hands to other things.


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  • #202
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Not ONE banker has yet to be prosecuted ...apparently fraud will be tolerated depending on how much one took.
    This is a disgrace, and I don't know who would argue otherwise. These cases are very, very hard to prove, so they should do what they do in the US: charge whatever people they can with whatever they can, then get them to name names for reduced sentences. Shake the weakest branch and see what falls out.

    One caveat: stupidity is not criminal. It's yet to be established to what extent the bank management were idiotic, and to what extent they were criminal.

    A proposal I've made many times is that remuneration for bank management should be paid 5 years in arrears: if they do something stupid to make their performance look good in the short term, the fallout will arrive before they get to collect their winnings. This will encourage them to manage prudently with a medium-to-long term outlook.

    A simple, cheap solution.


  • #203
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Godge wrote: »
    I would love to have a job in the profession I trained hard and long for. But that is not always possible. You have to change. If that wasn't the case, you would still have blacksmiths going around telling us that they want a job in the profession they trained for.

    As for those trained for jobs in the public service, I work with a couple of trained teachers who cannot get jobs teaching but turn their hands to other things.

    Does the same apply to barristers and MDs?

    7 years of university (actually I have 2 primary degrees - and yes - I paid fees and worked) so 10 years of university leading to a specialisation and I should just like that my turn hand to something else?

    What else did you have in mind?
    Would thou likest fries with that good sire? Can I interest thee in supersizing?

    I did that 30 years ago (and stacked shelves in Dunnes, worked on a bread round, picked spuds) - is that the best Ireland can offer me, and the many like me?

    Most likely I will have to emigrate (again!) and my taxes will go to another exchequer.


  • #204
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Godge wrote: »
    For someone working

    Cleaning - 65 euro
    Extraction - 100 euro
    Medicine - 120 euro per month
    College Fees - 2,000 euro per year (not paid by those on grant)


    Imagine two children at college, another one with asthma medication every month, and a fourth with bad teeth. For someone on 50k a year, that would put them well below social welfare.

    SW -
    Dentistry - No work to be done to 'save' a tooth. Its extraction or nothing. It's free to be gummy!
    Medicine - not all are covered by Medical Health card you know - the eardrops my GP prescribed last month cost me 8 euro - same as they'd cost you. But percantage of mt income wise - they cost me a lot more than they would cost someone on 50,000 k (I used to be that person!)

    There seems to be this perception among some of the employed commenting here that life on the dole is all smoking fags, watching Sky, soaking up the sun.

    The reality for many of us is 188 per week -o.k - lets divide that up into food money (40 max), utility bills money (10 off gas and leccy so bill doesn't build up, transport money (how necessary IS that journey - I'm lucky - Aldi in walking distance), a bit put aside for clothes/ household essentials like cleaning products money (do I need new clothes? No I have a needle and thread), money for things like stamps, printer ink for job applications...now how much do we have left in case there is an emergency...hmmmmmm...a whole 50 cent eh!

    That is not even to discuss the sheer soul destroying awfulness of it as so eloquently described by wolfpawnat.


  • #205
    HellFireClub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,912 ✭✭✭HellFireClub


    Godge wrote: »
    Wrong, the managers at the top - those over €130,000 are overpaid, many of the middle managers at 80-100k are correctly paid.

    The real problem is where so many of the public servants are - long-serving nurses, gardai, teachers and prison officers are paid way too much by international standards. Clerical Officers earning 35,000 when a private sector equivalent would be lucky to earn 20,000 are another example of the overpaid.

    Just think about this for a minute... If you are Managing Director of a private company at the present time, (if you own or part own the business), you have to basically risk your home in order to get an overdraft, because the banks will not give you an overdraft now without it being fully secured. If you are MD of your own company at the moment, you have to put the security of yourself, your wife and your kids, on the line in order for you to just survive in business. This might not be the case for every business but I personally know lads who cannot sleep at night with the responsibilities that they are carrying, as their businesses find it more difficult to get paid, more difficult to find work, etc. These lads are paying themselves 35k a year for the privilege of working for themselves, and for the privilege of putting their family homes on the line in order to get to see January.

    Now meanwhile, back on the ranch that is the Irish Public Service parallel universe, we have middle and higher ranking "managers", who never have to take an actual risk or make a difficult decision in their entire careers, earning 80k, 100k, 250k, 400k, etc???

    There is something completely wrong with all of this. Seriously, why does a manager who is insulated from any personal financial risk whatsoever in terms of their business management role, need to be paid insanely high sums such as 60k or 80k a year???

    Don't tell me there is no more low hanging fruit. It's all there in front of your eyes, it's just been placed out of bounds by the most bizarre and frustrating agreement ever, the Croke Park Agreement.

    My suggestion is that those within the PS on the VERY front line, on 45K or under, leave them alone. Anyone else who is the business of bean counting and implementing union dicktats within the public service, these people should be taken out of the remit of the Croke Park Agreement and where they are on a salary that exceeds 45K, it should be defaulted back down to 45k, whether it is 80k, 120k or whatever.

    It is a nonsense to say that there are MD's of small companies out there paying themselves 100K and the likes, the lads I know who are running their own businesses are paying themselves 35k a year IF THEY ARE LUCKY and they have been put into a position by their bank where in order to try to ride out this recession, their houses are on the line in order to capitalise their businesses, and these are not businesses that are carrying any excess fat, these are businesses that have been cut down to the bare bone in terms of overheads, salary costs, rent, etc...


  • #206
    COYW
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,930 ✭✭✭COYW


    Monty Burnz wrote: »
    One caveat: stupidity is not criminal. It's yet to be established to what extent the bank management were idiotic, and to what extent they were criminal.

    And a big caveat at that. I have to be quite honest and say that I can't see any bankers being brought to justice, sadly. Also, I know a few people who work in the Irish banks and their blind loyalty towards the bank is staggering. If their boss said "jump", they would respond with "How high, sir". They wouldn't dare question any instructions given in relation to lending etc.


  • #207
    murphaph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,117 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    ChRoMe wrote: »
    If social welfare has to be hit to make the ends meet for the country ok. However its a disgrace that society looks to poorest first.
    It doesn't. The top few percent of earners pay 85% of the tax that looks after the poor. Should the top earners be taxed more?

    Taxes were introduced in the form of the USC and the public sector had a (small) pay cut and pension levy applied before the dole was touched. The pension has still not been touched 4 years into our so called austerity program.

    What is your actual definition of poor Chrome? I think this is where you and others here might disagree.


  • #208
    irishh_bob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,700 ✭✭✭irishh_bob


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    dont forget the sheltered professionals like GP,s , dentists etc


  • #209
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    SW -
    Dentistry - No work to be done to 'save' a tooth. Its extraction or nothing. It's free to be gummy!
    Medicine - not all are covered by Medical Health card you know - the eardrops my GP prescribed last month cost me 8 euro - same as they'd cost you. But percantage of mt income wise - they cost me a lot more than they would cost someone on 50,000 k (I used to be that person!)

    There seems to be this perception among some of the employed commenting here that life on the dole is all smoking fags, watching Sky, soaking up the sun.

    The reality for many of us is 188 per week -o.k - lets divide that up into food money (40 max), utility bills money (10 off gas and leccy so bill doesn't build up, transport money (how necessary IS that journey - I'm lucky - Aldi in walking distance), a bit put aside for clothes/ household essentials like cleaning products money (do I need new clothes? No I have a needle and thread), money for things like stamps, printer ink for job applications...now how much do we have left in case there is an emergency...hmmmmmm...a whole 50 cent eh!

    That is not even to discuss the sheer soul destroying awfulness of it as so eloquently described by wolfpawnat.

    Itemising what the dole can actually buy is the best form of comparison. Is there a "welfare basket" comparison between countries available anywhere?

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • #210
    wolfpawnat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,124 ✭✭✭wolfpawnat


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    Itemising what the dole can actually buy is the best form of comparison. Is there a "welfare basket" comparison between countries available anywhere?

    cordially,
    Scofflaw

    Not really, Child Benefit and JSA are lower in England but they have free healthcare and necessary dental care for under 12s, many have subsidised cooked school lunches as part of the school system, free books for school and subsidised school uniforms, we don't.


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  • #211
    Crazy Horse 6
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,474 ✭✭✭Crazy Horse 6


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    To me these two statements from our esteemed leaders sum up the divide:




    Read more: http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/justice-minister-frustrated-by-drumm-response-to-anglo-investigation-519540.html#ixzz1XlDROy7M





    Read more: http://www.examiner.ie/breakingnews/ireland/600-inspectors-track-benefit-cheats-520248.html#ixzz1XlDka7p3


    Not ONE banker has yet to be prosecuted ...apparently fraud will be tolerated depending on how much one took.
    Your either in the golden circle or your not.


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