Jürgen Stark: Abandon the Croke Park Agreement, cut welfare

Permabear · 12-09-2011 10:43AM

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Armin_Tamzarian · 12-09-2011 10:50AM

ChRoMe wrote: »

BTW I live in London and the social welfare here is far better than whats in Ireland, you are not comparing like with like.

Get real.
The last time I checked, basic dole for a single male in the UK was just under £70.00, which is less than half of what the same person would get if they claimed in Ireland.
Cost of living in Ireland may be high but the dole here is way too much and needs to be reduced.

wolfpawnat wrote: »

My ideas to save moola (FG/Labour feel free to use any of these in the Budget:D)

- No expenses for politicans, they are well enough paid, they don't need that too.
- No Child Benefit for households earning over €150,000 a year after tax.
- Stomp out ALL welfare fraud.
- 1% tax on people with assets over €2 million.
- All state, and semi-state body Board of Directors, CEO's, etc must take an immediate cut to their salaries, no one should be earning over €100,000 a year post tax!
- Rather than debt forgiveness, realistic talks between banks and people, if a person can only afford to pay back €100 a month, they that's all they can afford.

I am a genius I know, but I am too honest for Leinster House so I'd never get in!!!!!:D;)

Most of your points are fair enough except for these two.

- Stomp out ALL welfare fraud. - IMPOSSIBLE, well unless we just cut out SW altogether.

- 1% tax on people with assets over €2 million.
Why?
There's enough tax on income and expenditure not to mind taxing what people have acquired with their post-tax earnings.
Having a house / land worth 2million doesn't necessarily mean you can afford to pay +20k per annum in tax.
Then what? Force people to dispose of assests because they can't afford to pay?

Permabear · 12-09-2011 10:51AM

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doomed · 12-09-2011 11:04AM

Since it has been determined by the people abroad who run Ireland that we need to cut our way out of a recession then it is better to front load the pain and take a really big bite. It will hurt like hell but if people felt that things would settle down afterwards and everyone shared the pain they might just go for it. There are still plenty of options.

Public Sector pay - yes but confine the cuts to higher paid people. Some of those at the lower levels would be better off on the dole already and it must be really offensive to have pundits who are paid a large multiple of their wages calling for further reductions instead of tax increases for themselves.

Social welfare - yes. It is the elephant in the room and the levels have grown to an unsustainable level. BTW Why do we give child benefit to wealthy families?

Pension subsidies. Why on earth in a recession are we spending billions to encourage people to save money? It would make much more sense to say that for the next 5 years this tax hand out is eliminated.

Retrain surplus public servants as tax inspectors so everyone gets an audit. Jail for for tax evasion. Its theft. If it was good enough for
Al Capone it is good enough for some of Ireland's "respectable people".

End Free universtity fees. Replace it with a system of grants that take into account not only family income but assets. Since assets can be converted into income through sale and annuity they are potentially measureable.

A real wealth tax on income above a certain high level. Those rats who leave the country to avoid paying their share can go.

A higher rate of income tax above €150k. The argument that this will stifle economnic activity has never been a strong one but is convenient. Bear in mind that a lot of those who earn highest are not actually entrepreneurs but employees or self employed professionals.

The point is we are either all in this together or we are not.

Diarmuid · 12-09-2011 11:19AM

doomed wrote: »

Those rats who leave the country to avoid paying their share can go.

With attitudes like this, it's no wonder this country is in a mess.

Tabnabs · 12-09-2011 11:25AM

Permabear wrote: »

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But isn't that the elephant in the room? We can slash and burn state welfare and genuinely see people go short for food, heat and light, but those being paid by the state won't see anything like the cuts necessary to put a real dent in the deficit. And I don't mean the librarians, guys cleaning streets, and other low paid positions, it's the €100k plus group who can't justify their wages other than "they have a contract".

20Cent · 12-09-2011 11:37AM

Why is anyone still even listening to the ECB. They are mostly responsible for the crisis and have made it much worse and messed up every attempt of a solution. Not to mention they are forcing countries to pay private debt. All they care about is their banks getting paid not employment or whatever devastation is wrecked on Irish society.

Another report was released this week Gene Kerrigan wrote a piece about it in the Sindo it was not widely reported at all. The United Nations Conference on trade and development.
http://www.unctad.org/en/docs/tdr2011overview_embargo_en.pdf
It says pretty much the opposite of what Stark says:

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/gene-kerrigan/gene-kerrigan-hooray-were-back-on-track-again-2873035.html

The lead author of the report, Henier Flassbeck, a German professor of economics, said: "If governments stick to the policy of not only keeping fiscal deficits where they are but retrenching, cutting public expenditure, then we will end up in permanent recession."

A definition of insanity is to keep doing the same thing expecting a different result. The "austerity" cult members want us all living on slave wages with no social services so that every gambler gets their pound of flesh. Time to reverse the bank guarantee and let some of them contribute.
Want to know what the problem is look at Bondwatch: Next year the Government will load us with another €20bn in debt to pay off the gamblers. And by 2015 we'll generously pay a further €60bn of other people's gambling debts. And, no doubt, the EU (if it still exists) will pat us on the head again.

Permabear · 12-09-2011 11:47AM

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sarumite · 12-09-2011 11:52AM

20Cent wrote: »

Why is anyone still even listening to the ECB. They are mostly responsible for the crisis and have made it much worse and messed up every attempt of a solution. Not to mention they are forcing countries to pay private debt. All they care about is their banks getting paid not employment or whatever devastation is wrecked on Irish society.

I didn't see any references or sources, so I can only assume the above is an opinion.

A definition of insanity is to keep doing the same thing expecting a different result. The "austerity" cult members want us all living on slave wages with no social services so that every gambler gets their pound of flesh. Time to reverse the bank guarantee and let some of them contribute.

Even if we do as you say, we are still left with a deficit. We can't borrow money from the markets which means even tighter austerity. (for the record Ireland is far from "slave" wages even after several harsh budgets, using such emotive language really reduces the impact of your argument)

Permabear · 12-09-2011 11:58AM

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20Cent · 12-09-2011 12:01PM

Permabear wrote: »

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Note the words, "want us" which you failed to include in your quote.

sarumite · 12-09-2011 12:21PM

20Cent wrote: »

Note the words, "want us" which you failed to include in your quote.

Maybe s/he was doing your argument a favour by removing it. The argument that people who support a balancing of the states budget ("austerity cult members") are only doing so, so that they can see wages reduced to susbsitance level is asinine.

Godge · 12-09-2011 12:24PM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I can see what you mean about middle-classs public sector workers but from my experience of friends and neighbours, there are a lot of 50k public sector workers who having to pay for housing, doctors, medicine, dentists, college fees, school books and uniforms, extra tax, pension levy etc who did not get a holiday abroad this year while many social welfare recipients, thanks to rent allowance, mortgage help, back to school allowance, college grants, medical card etc, which are in addtion to their social welfare did manage to go on holiday.

How can you have a situation where it is easier for someone on social welfare to go abroad for a week or two than someone who is working to put food on the table? Even accepting that public sector workers and others are overpaid, their standard of living is not signficantly greater than those on social welfare and (if they have sick kids at school or college) in many cases is below those on social welfare.

I do share the belief that many (but not all) public servants are overpaid, the bigger problem is social welfare. While public servants might be 10-20% better off than their European counterparts, social welfare recipients are 100% upwards better off.

Godge · 12-09-2011 12:27PM

Tabnabs wrote: »

But isn't that the elephant in the room? We can slash and burn state welfare and genuinely see people go short for food, heat and light, but those being paid by the state won't see anything like the cuts necessary to put a real dent in the deficit. And I don't mean the librarians, guys cleaning streets, and other low paid positions, it's the €100k plus group who can't justify their wages other than "they have a contract".

I know 10-12 households on social welfare and they are far from going short on food, heat and light.

In fact, about 7-8 of those households had holidays abroad this year so if they are short on food, heat and light, it was nothing to do with the social welfare rate.

Monty Burnz · 12-09-2011 12:30PM

20Cent wrote: »

The "austerity" cult members want us all living on slave wages with no social services so that every gambler gets their pound of flesh. Time to reverse the bank guarantee and let some of them contribute.
Want to know what the problem is look at Bondwatch: Next year the Government will load us with another €20bn in debt to pay off the gamblers. And by 2015 we'll generously pay a further €60bn of other people's gambling debts. And, no doubt, the EU (if it still exists) will pat us on the head again.

Fantasy. We are running a huge current account deficit even without the huge Fianna Failure bank costs. Where are we supposed to magic up this money from exactly? :rolleyes:

Bannasidhe · 12-09-2011 12:30PM

Or we could learn the lessons of history and see what actually worked the last time there was a massive global recession - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Deal

The New Deal was a series of economic programs implemented in the United States between 1933 and 1936. They were passed by the U.S. Congress during the first term of President Franklin D. Roosevelt. The programs were responses to the Great Depression, and focused on what historians call the "3 Rs": Relief, Recovery, and Reform. That is, Relief for the unemployed and poor; Recovery of the economy to normal levels; and Reform of the financial system to prevent a repeat depression.

But sure we all know FDR was a well know leftie...oh hang on. No he wasn't.

We have around 1/2 million adults dependent on SW in this country - most of them as a direct result of the financial melt-down caused by government mis-management of the economy, little or no regulation of the financial sector and unsustainable speculation on property.

These are 1/2 a million people who do not have a disposable cent as it is but are about to be hit by fuel charges imposed by utility companies who can squander 900 per chair and pay senior staff outrageous salaries.

These are 1/2 a million people who are struggling to eat never mind keep a roof over their heads - and if they have dependent children must find thousands of euro a year to fund our so-called free education but are being told by the overpaid mandarins in Leinster House (elected and unelected) that we are all in this together and must all take a hit. A 15% cut in 10,000 P.A is a Vastly different proposition to a 10% cut from 100,000 a year. And this from people who can claim expenses just for showing up at their place of work.

But lets all buy Irish, lets get the retail sector going, lets cut VAT in the hospitality sector, lets have 2 years scrappage scheme to aid the Japanese, French, Germany motor industries.

1/2 a million people in this country have no choice in what they buy - they buy the cheapest they can get. They cannot afford to eat out. They cannot afford to put petrol in the car.

Every week there is another example of how those who were tasked with running the state are still riding the gravy train into a plush and comfortable retirement, while those who gambled on property developement can still get salaries of up to 200,000 a year from our money.

Latest one :

THE chairman of the state’s implementation body for health sector reform has received over €1 million in severance fees, non-tendered projects from former colleagues and other payouts since retiring from the health service.

Read more: http://www.examiner.ie/ireland/hse-reformer-receives-1m-since-retiring-167207.html#ixzz1Xjnnl2Ay

But hey - the country is broke so lets hit those who already have nothing. Let's ignore the UNCTD Report on why austerity measures are a very bad idea. Let's ignore the lessons of history which show that investment in employment, regualtion of financial sector, accountability and protection of the vulnurable actually work to kick start an economy.

Lets all heed the advise of a banker having a hissy fit instead...

I should say I have no problem with either Child benefit or Old Age Pension being means tested - in fact, I think they should be. My own mother has a medical Health Card while also having full private insurance - she has never even claimed the card as simply doesn't need it. I know people who put the Child benefit straight into a saving account and others who need it to pay utility bills so their children can be kept warm.

Irish society is deeply divided and historically the vulnerable have been not only left unprotected by the institutions of the state - but often specifically targeted while an elite gorge themselves at the trough of public monies. At least when it was the Anglo-Irish Ascendancy we could all 'blame' Britain - WHO DO WE BLAME NOW?

wolfpawnat · 12-09-2011 12:43PM

syklops wrote: »

Dole in the UK is 65GBP or about 71 euros a week. In Ireland it is 196 euro.

Dole is actually €188, and will no doubt be decreased more in the next budget. Not too much of a difference, but it makes your argument void if you cannot quote facts.

Diarmuid wrote: »

My mistake. I should have quoted your whole list. How much are all your proposals going to raise?

About a billion, not enough I know, but a good start.

Also with all these austerity measures solely to pay Europe, where are we ever going to get money for job creation.

Obama is investing over $100 billion in job creation. Now I know we don't have that sort of money here, but it does need to be a 2 pronged approach. You cannot expect unemployed people to just die so we don't have to be a burden on the government, and the country cannot afford the 450,000 unemployed, so we need to get back to work and nothing is being done to do that

Monty Burnz · 12-09-2011 12:44PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Irish society is deeply divided and historically the vulnerable have been not only left unprotected by the institutions of the state - but often specifically targeted while an elite gorge themselves at the trough of public monies. At least when it was the Anglo-Irish Ascendancy we could all 'blame' Britain - WHO DO WE BLAME NOW?

I'm genuinely baffled by this attitude. Whatever about the past, in the present day someone who has never worked a day in their lives, has never bothered to go to school, and never intends to do anything useful at all in future can live a comfortable life with all their needs met. Not only their needs in fact - it seems that the entitlement culture has extended to luxuries like entertainment and sun holidays.

Can anyone remember what you'd have to be earning before tax to match the take-home (take home, as if they left it in the first place :rolleyes:) income of a guy on the dole with 3 kids?

There are genuinely vulnerable people who are still getting shafted - autistic children and adults, the mentally ill and so forth. But the unemployed and the pensioners are very, very well looked after in this country - in fact, the amount of money pensioners get is absolutely ridiculous.

Perhaps you could explain to us exactly where in the world you'd have to go as a pensioner or SW recipient to get better treatment than you do here, in our bankrupt little kleptocracy?

Debtocracy · 12-09-2011 12:53PM

If we could go back to living as a poor country with the debts of a poor country this would be fine. However, the current austerity programme involves going back to live as a poor country while retaining the debts of a rich country. Failure is certain - either we will continue to run bloated deficits or we will default.

COYW · 12-09-2011 12:54PM

Godge wrote: »

I do share the belief that many (but not all) public servants are overpaid, the bigger problem is social welfare. While public servants might be 10-20% better off than their European counterparts, social welfare recipients are 100% upwards better off.

I agree that SW is more of an issue that public sector salaries. The dole grew at 3 times the rate of inflation during the boom years and those on the dole have felt very little pain in terms of cuts, from my experiences. The dole is still proving to be a very viable career option for people, which is completely wrong.

I grew up in an area with a very high percentage of long term unemployed people and their lifestyles have not changed since the downturn. The lads my age, late 20s, still go to 1 or 2 premier league games per month and spend Friday and Saturday night out in the pub when they are around. I was speaking to another long term unemployed person on Saturday morning who was on her way to the doctor with her sore hand that she bumped the night before.

Monty Burnz · 12-09-2011 12:57PM

COYW wrote: »

I grew up in an area with a very high percentage of long term unemployed people and their lifestyles have not changed since the downturn. The lads my age, late 20s, still go to 1 or 2 premier league games per month and spend Friday and Saturday night out in the pub when they are around. I was speaking to another long term unemployed person on Saturday morning who was on her way to the doctor with her sore hand that she bumped the night before.

Did you not get the memo? These people are VULNERABLE! They HAVE NOTHING!

At least, that's what it said in Das Kapital. I haven't looked out my window in 150 years to learn the current situation.

murphaph · 12-09-2011 12:57PM

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Dole is actually €188, and will no doubt be decreased more in the next budget. Not too much of a difference, but it makes your argument void if you cannot quote facts.

Of course it doesn't invalidate his argument. He was a few Euro out but his point stands!

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Also with all these austerity measures solely to pay Europe, where are we ever going to get money for job creation.

Erm, these "austerity" measures are not to "pay Europe", they are because we have a multi-billion Euro current account deficit! If it wasn't for Europe we'd have had to implement real austerity immediately as soon as borrowing on the bond markets became impossible. I wish the Europeans had been able to leave us sort our own mess out tbh. We're a country that generates about 30-35bn in taxes. That's how much we should be spending.

Bannasidhe · 12-09-2011 12:58PM

Godge wrote: »

I can see what you mean about middle-classs public sector workers but from my experience of friends and neighbours, there are a lot of 50k public sector workers who having to pay for housing, doctors, medicine, dentists, college fees, school books and uniforms, extra tax, pension levy etc who did not get a holiday abroad this year while many social welfare recipients, thanks to rent allowance, mortgage help, back to school allowance, college grants, medical card etc, which are in addtion to their social welfare did manage to go on holiday.

.

Dentist - Medical card covers a cleaning and tooth extraction only.
Medicine - 50 c charge per item with MC.
College Fees - ALL undergraduate course still have free fees for all students.
Schools allowance -

Rates
The allowance paid for each eligible child aged 2-11 on or before 30 September 2011 is €200.

The allowance paid for each eligible child aged 12-22 on or before 30 September 2011 is €305.

http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Schemes/SupplementaryWelfareAllowance/Pages/BacktoSchoolClothingandFootwearAllowance.aspx#Rates3

wolfpawnat · 12-09-2011 01:01PM

COYW wrote: »

I grew up in an area with a very high percentage of long term unemployed people and their lifestyles have not changed since the downturn. The lads my age, late 20s, still go to 1 or 2 premier league games per month and spend Friday and Saturday night out in the pub when they are around. I was speaking to another long term unemployed person on Saturday morning who was on her way to the doctor with her sore hand that she bumped the night before.

We cannot make 380,000 people suffer for the actions of the 80,000 people who took the píss during the boom!

I can barely get by with mine, but I am an honest person left with no options for the last 2 years with a child to raise. I do not go out at all (i last went to the cinema to see Harry Potter 7 part 2 and before that Twilight Eclipse, hardly a great social life!

Bannasidhe · 12-09-2011 01:02PM

murphaph wrote: »

Of course it doesn't invalidate his argument. He was a few Euro out but his point stands!

Erm, these "austerity" measures are not to "pay Europe", they are because we have a multi-billion Euro current account deficit! If it wasn't for Europe we'd have had to implement real austerity immediately as soon as borrowing on the bond markets became impossible. I wish the Europeans had been able to leave us sort our own mess out tbh. We're a country that generates about 30-35bn in taxes. That's how much we should be spending.

These austerity measures are being implemented because the government converted banking debt into sovereign debt. They did not ascertain the extent of the banking debt prior to guaranteeing it. The amount required so far is well in excess of our gross national income. It was this which pushed the Irish economy over the edge.

Solair · 12-09-2011 01:06PM

I am really getting sick of this 'operation human shield' being used by the upper echelons of the public and civil service.

There are outrageously high salaries at various levels of the public sector and in the sheltered organisations like ESB, Bord Gais, RTE etc. They have to be looked at and reduced to sane levels.

Remember, those companies may be 'commercial' but they are effectively mildly reformed monopolies operating in a somewhat deregulated market. When they are operating with huge salaries, those are being passed onto you in your power bills, your license fees etc

Every time anyone mentions public sector pay / public spending, there is an immediate reaction of throwing the low paid public sector workers and those surviving on welfare onto the chopping block.

It's not just spin either, the middle and upper tiers of the public sector have a tendency to pull up the ladder and to want to inflict austerity on the lower tiers first before they'll even consider their own fat cat salaries.

Take a look at the HSE for example, anytime there's a budget cut they slash frontline services while leaving the administrators and layer upon layer of overpaid management alone.

Is this because they are protecting their empire? Or, is it just a way of getting the public to feel that the cuts are outrageous as they are choosing to target them at front line services rather than reducing the overheads i.e. very crewel spin?

We have to stop the middle / upper managers from hiding behind the poor. It's getting ridiculous and I am constantly amazed that more of the media analysis does not focus on this.

I know RTE won't as it's a public body itself, but the newspapers and commercial media should be able to highlight this 'human shield' issue.

Then you've issues like rent allowance which is a large % of the welfare and health budget and is funnelling vast amounts of public money into the pockets of private landlords. Surely, direct provision of public housing would have been more cost-effective? It might not have gotten Fianna Fail so many votes and funding from property developers and the landlord classes, but it would have made financial sense!

The system needs total reform!

No more b/s and no more hiding or fallacious arguments based on fat-cat middle/senior management pretending that they're in the same category as office cleaners. Things HAVE to change!

Idbatterim · 12-09-2011 01:06PM

Between 2000 and 2011, we have seen a cumulative increase in the dole of 95 percent, but cumulative inflation of 34 percent.

How do you explain that?

buying elections!

Bannasidhe · 12-09-2011 01:06PM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I'm genuinely baffled by this attitude. Whatever about the past, in the present day someone who has never worked a day in their lives, has never bothered to go to school, and never intends to do anything useful at all in future can live a comfortable life with all their needs met. Not only their needs in fact - it seems that the entitlement culture has extended to luxuries like entertainment and sun holidays.

Can anyone remember what you'd have to be earning before tax to match the take-home (take home, as if they left it in the first place :rolleyes:) income of a guy on the dole with 3 kids?

There are genuinely vulnerable people who are still getting shafted - autistic children and adults, the mentally ill and so forth. But the unemployed and the pensioners are very, very well looked after in this country - in fact, the amount of money pensioners get is absolutely ridiculous.

Perhaps you could explain to us exactly where in the world you'd have to go as a pensioner or SW recipient to get better treatment than you do here, in our bankrupt little kleptocracy?

Perhaps you would like to tell me where those who 'run' this country could go to get betters wages, expenses, severance packages, pensions, golden handshakes and a 'do not go to jail' card?

Monty Burnz · 12-09-2011 01:08PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Perhaps you would like to tell me where those who 'run' this country could go to get betters wages, expenses and a 'do not go to jail' card?

They are grossly overpaid, and corruption is unpunished. I've been ringing that bell for years. Everyone sucking on the teat of the taxpayer is getting far too much - it's just the other side of the same coin.

wolfpawnat · 12-09-2011 01:08PM

murphaph wrote: »

Erm, these "austerity" measures are not to "pay Europe", they are because we have a multi-billion Euro current account deficit! If it wasn't for Europe we'd have had to implement real austerity immediately as soon as borrowing on the bond markets became impossible. I wish the Europeans had been able to leave us sort our own mess out tbh. We're a country that generates about 30-35bn in taxes. That's how much we should be spending.

We are billions above what we are earning in tax but we are also paying back €80billion in loans to Europe. We are nowhere near that bad in our deficit as €80 billion.

Also everyone that is high and mighty, how many of you are actually doing this at work when you are supposed to be working? If your jobs that boring, I will swap, you can stay home and contemplate how to pay the next bill on a menial sum while I work at your medium pay job. Simples

Jürgen Stark: Abandon the Croke Park Agreement, cut welfare

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