Should history be removed as a compulsory subject on the Junior Cert?

Biggins · 11-09-2011 11:18PM

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"

George Santayana

Logical Fallacy · 11-09-2011 11:20PM

Threads like this normally boil down to people wanting to get rid of the subjects they sucked at.

Dionysus · 11-09-2011 11:20PM

jive wrote: »

"The only thing we learn from history is that we learn nothing from history." - Friedrich Hegel

If we weren't taught 11 compulsory subjects then I'd make an argument for it not being compulsory but when things such as CSPE and religion are compulsory you can hardly make any decent argument that history shouldn't be.

The new proposal is that there will be four compulsory subjects henceforth: English, Irish, Maths and, now, Science. Everything else, including Geography, will be optional. If this NCCA proposal is accepted it is anticipated that the new system will begin for first years in September 2012.

youngblood · 11-09-2011 11:21PM

Teutorix wrote: »

It can come up in paper one. Its in the leaving cert books also. They cant examine everything every year. A good standard of English will stand to anyone applying for a job in nearly any field

Its great to hear that they've included these things in the English curriculum.
im glad its changed and moved focus away from the usual essay writing, poetry reponses,novels, modern and shakespearan dramas etc

Aoifey! · 11-09-2011 11:21PM

I hated History, it was my worst subject, I did ordinary...but it should still be compulsory for the Junior Cert.

You can make an arguement for almost every subject to not be compulsory if you try hard enough, but why not let students learn a bit of everything up until Junior Cert, and then let them drop it from there on.

Teutorix · 11-09-2011 11:23PM

youngblood wrote: »

Its great to hear that they've included these things in the English curriculum.
im glad its changed and moved focus away from the usual essay writing, poetry reponses,novels, modern and shakespearan dramas etc

It may be in the curriculum but the majority of marks still go for all that sh!te. At most it will be 50 marks of the whole exam for a functional piece of english (excluding the essay if you choose a speech or something)

Dionysus · 11-09-2011 11:29PM

Teutorix wrote: »

Yes it does, i just finished my leaving cert this year. We learned how to write business letters including job applications and C.V.s

Kids are learning how to do this in 1st year of the Business Studies course, as their predecessors have been doing for many years. If the English curriculum is trying to teach this for the LC I'm not quite sure that this bodes well for your contention that the English curriculum is relevant and essential to Irish students.

Teutorix · 11-09-2011 11:33PM

Dionysus wrote: »

Kids are learning how to do this in 1st year of the Business Studies course, as their predecessors have been doing for many years. If the English curriculum is trying to teach this for the LC I'm not quite sure that this bodes well for your contention that the English curriculum is relevant and essential to Irish students.

Im not saying its covered well in all schools. But it is on the cirriculum and if it was taught right it would be effective. That said there is too much poetry and literature. But English should never be abolished as a subject.

Logical Fallacy · 11-09-2011 11:33PM

Dionysus wrote: »

Kids are learning how to do this in 1st year of the Business Studies course, as their predecessors have been doing for many years. If the English curriculum is trying to teach this for the LC I'm not quite sure that this bodes well for your contention that the English curriculum is relevant and essential to Irish students.

I think English is important for it's study of poems, plays and short stories. I will be completely honest and say if someone can't pick up the subtext or theme of a literary work i generally assume they are pretty damn dim.

So lets keep English so i don't despair at the world more than i already do.

Dionysus · 11-09-2011 11:35PM

Teutorix wrote: »

It may be in the curriculum but the majority of marks still go for all that sh!te. At most it will be 50 marks of the whole exam for a functional piece of english (excluding the essay if you choose a speech or something)

If the current English curriculum could get Irish students to stop saying things like "I seen them boys"; "I done that"; "you should of done that"; "he throne [threw] it at me" ad infinitum it would be a success. The basics are still not taught, and it shows. In curriculum terms, that is the fault of that curriculum and no other.

Most Irish people only understand English grammar when they learn another language.

confusticated · 11-09-2011 11:38PM

Teutorix wrote: »

Religion isnt compulsory, we never did it in my school.

When did you do the JC? I did mine in 2005 and we were the first year of my school to do it, another school in town had had it in place for two years and it was planned to be in place nationally by 2007 afaik.

I didn't actually know history was compulsory, is it in all schools? I definitely have one friend who never did it in secondary school.

charlemont · 11-09-2011 11:39PM

No, History is very important to students as it can help explain a multitude of problems the world faces today, People with a good grasp of history tend to be more open minded and think outside the box, More tolerant of other cultures too.

Got an A in honours at the junior myself.:cool:

Icyseanfitz · 11-09-2011 11:40PM

yeah...no the only way we will advance as a race is if we learn from our past mistakes and victories aka history not teaching people about horrors such as hitler and ww2 would be opening us up for it to happen again

Teutorix · 11-09-2011 11:40PM

Dionysus wrote: »

If the current English curriculum could get Irish students to stop saying things like "I seen them boys"; "I done that"; "you should of done that"; "he throne [threw] it at me" ad infinitum it would be a success. The basics are still not taught, and it shows. In curriculum terms, that is the fault of that curriculum and no other.

Most Irish people only understand English grammar when they learn another language.

You cant blame the cirriculum for that when plenty of people grow up speaking perfectly fine English. Getting people to use correct syntax and grammar has to take place in the early years not at the age of 16/17/18. I have always used the best English available to me because of a few reasons. 1. my parents spoke to me like a human being, and never used idiotic baby talk. (neither of them having an education past leaving cert) 2. I was reading books while my peers had the attitude that reading books was "gay" 3. I payed attention in primary school where we learned the basics.

There is no excuse for people who sat the LC with me not knowing the difference between an adjective and and adverb when we were in the same english class in primary school.

Teutorix · 11-09-2011 11:42PM

confusticated wrote: »

When did you do the JC? I did mine in 2005 and we were the first year of my school to do it, another school in town had had it in place for two years and it was planned to be in place nationally by 2007 afaik.

I didn't actually know history was compulsory, is it in all schools? I definitely have one friend who never did it in secondary school.

2005 i think. didn't know it was being made mandatory. my sister just did her JC and she didnt sit religion either.

strobe · 11-09-2011 11:46PM

Jesus Christ what an awful suggestion. History is the study of humanity. If someone is willing to put forward an argument about humanity not being a relevant thing to learn about in school I'm all ears.

don ramo · 11-09-2011 11:58PM

you'll never know where your heading if you don't know where you came from,

i dunno who said that but it has always stuck with me,

i was never great at history but i do think its a vital subject that should be thought up to junior cert level at least, a very small number of students would pick history at 13, but at 16/17 youll know more about yourself and have some grasp of what you might do after your leaving cert, so youd be more likely to pick it for the LC,

also like i said i wasnt much good at it, but i remember in 3rd year when the class got split between honours and ordinary, i went with the honours crowd as i wanted to learn about my own countrys history, i wanted to know how i came to be here in this country, i dont need to know how billy hick came to be in tennesse,

history should be kept, and more irish history should be put into the ciriculum, also it mightent make a difference but i think it would be more interesting if the teachers learned a bit of the local history of the town they teach in, it would help get the students more interested in history that is right at there doorstep,

also it would be good if there was a recomended viewing material for students to watch at home, like the world at war series, that could then be disscussed in class,

also the irish language is one of the few pieces of truly irish culture remaining, and should be thought as well as it can, it might never become our national language again but it somthing worth keeping, i myself was useless at it, and ended up dropping it half way through 6th year as i didnt want any fails on my leaving cert and i always said to myself ill never do foundation level, its deffinately a regret that i didnt learn my true national language,

jive · 11-09-2011 11:59PM

Teutorix wrote: »

Religion isnt compulsory, we never did it in my school.

Fúckin' was in my school!! Got an A in it but it wasn't even worth it for the shíte I had to learn. It was probably equal to CSPE in ease though so once ya get a good grade it makes your bit of paper look good :P

Dionysus wrote: »

The new proposal is that there will be four compulsory subjects henceforth: English, Irish, Maths and, now, Science. Everything else, including Geography, will be optional. If this NCCA proposal is accepted it is anticipated that the new system will begin for first years in September 2012.

Sigh as if Irish made it in there to be compulsory along with English, maths and science. Maths, English and science should be the only compulsory subjects IMO. Every job you're ever going to get will involve at least 1 of those 3. While history, geography, Irish etc. etc. all have their place I don't think any of them should be compulsory if that new system were to come in. As it stands though history should be compulsory because there are a lot more pointless subjects in the mix than history to be worrying about.

stealinhorses · 12-09-2011 12:11AM

Of course it should stay compulsory for the JC... as they say: "you don't know where you're going unless you know where you came from".

I do think, however, that the exam at LC level should be restructured. It favours people writing massive amounts of BS, over those with genuine insights and knowledge.

Liam Byrne · 12-09-2011 12:11AM

Teutorix wrote: »

You cant blame the cirriculum ...

I payed attention....

Cough!

Stained Class · 12-09-2011 12:42AM

Domo230 wrote: »

History and Maths were the only 2 useful things I learn t in secondary school.

Was Science not important?

That was my favorate.

History cool too. Loved it.

starlit · 12-09-2011 12:53AM

I see no point in removing History as a compulsory subject for the Junior Cert to be honest 'cause they would have to do the same for Geography. They couldn't have one on or not without the other.

Ya fair enough it be better to have them as options but I think it be a better idea is to have both of them options but you must do one of them as a compulsory subject as part the Junior Cert also having the option of taking the other subject as part of your four option subjects which often includes having to take a compulsory foreign language in some schools.

I think you be lost without having covered either History or Geography if you wish to take one of them for Leaving Cert, you'd be lost with the study if you hadn't studied them for Junior Cert as they are a lot more detailed in Leaving Cert and there is a lot more to remember and its more essay style exams in Leaving Cert for History and Geography.

I suppose I would be against making those subjects options for Junior Cert as I think and consider them as important subjects, you study them in primary school why not do them for Junior Cert and then have the option of doing them or not when it comes to the Leaving Cert as it stands with those subjects.

Although the majority of students will choose at least one or two languages they may have to choose at least one, either Business and or Science and or one humanity and creative type subjects like Home EC, Art, Music or Technical Graphics are more likely to be taken up. There might be more subject options in other schools in towns and cities than those down the country.

From my own experience, I loved History and Geography, I enjoyed Geography even as an exam subject but not History despite liking the subject I found it harder as an exam subject. While Geography was simple enough to learn. I was very lucky I not only enjoyed and liked both subjects was very good at them too, Geography being my best subject I took it up for Leaving Cert!
I did honours and passed with honours in both my History and Geography JC exams as well as having passed my honours Leaving Cert Geography with honours!

I suppose history and geography isn't for everyone, some are better at one than the other some loath them some love them, everyone has different interests and what they are good at.

Basically I think it be mad to make both History and Geography non complusory for the JC the same as the LC that having one of them as a compulsory option and the other as part of the four main options if you wish to take it on or else just pick another subject instead of it I think be more feasible!

Fair enough it be wise to cut down on JC subjects since the majority be doing 9 or 10 subjects maybe more that cutting down one or two subjects be a likely option like giving the option whether to take a language or not as an option rather than having to do at one language as a compulsory option. CSPE could easily go or at least just have continuous assessment and no exam might be worth considering.

Religion too could easily go or be reduced to just CA's and no final exam. In my opinion CSCPE and Religion are subjects that they could be revised and removed when it comes to exams but not necessary make them non compulsory subjects, keep them on just not as exam subjects and stick with CA's or projects and be graded on them as a final result for the end of the year instead of an exam or just not have them part of the JC exam results.

Overall I think it wouldn't be wise to not make History as an option for JC but keep it as a compulsory subject for now! Why learning it in primary school if you aren't going to continue for JC. Another option is to be made do History up to second year and then decide if a student wishes to do the history exam for the JC.

History and Geography are part of us why not embrace it in educational studies, not many of us would continue either or both on after Junior or Leaving Cert so don't think it make much of a difference to make them options for JC rather than keep them as compulsory subjects.

Chuck Stone · 12-09-2011 12:59AM

History should be replaced with Philosophy in secondary school. The philosophical mind will then have a better chance of deciphering what is propaganda and what is closer to fact when it comes to social history.

PseudoFamous · 12-09-2011 01:12AM

confusticated wrote: »

When did you do the JC? I did mine in 2005 and we were the first year of my school to do it, another school in town had had it in place for two years and it was planned to be in place nationally by 2007 afaik.

I didn't actually know history was compulsory, is it in all schools? I definitely have one friend who never did it in secondary school.

Religion is compulsory, but it's non compulsory as an exam. It's really more of a doss class than anything, like CSPE and SPHE. Watch a movie, talk philosophically for a bit, pretty pointless. I ended up mitching most religion classes after 2nd year.

History is completely optional, as are foreign languages, etc., but some schools might impose it on students. I've never studied it, though.

doovdela wrote: »

I see no point in removing History as a compulsory subject for the Junior Cert to be honest 'cause they would have to do the same for Geography. They couldn't have one on or not without the other.

Geography isn't compulsory, either. I took it up for the first time in fifth year for easy points.

The only compulsory subjects are Irish, English and Maths at Leaving cert, and Irish, English, Maths, CSPE, PE, Science and SPHE at junior cert.

IsMiseLisa · 12-09-2011 01:40AM

Philosophy is the last thing we need to force into the heads of dip****s all over the country.

Randomer. · 12-09-2011 02:45AM

Should be compulsory for the leaving cert. It's actually interesting, you can really see the difference between people who did history in schools v those who did not. They tend to have a much broader view or the world/life/humanity.

Cookie_Monster · 12-09-2011 02:51AM

we should get rid of all the suedo-mythical Irish history parts and focus more on the actual facts of our past but aside from that it should very much stay on the curriculum

Helix · 12-09-2011 02:54AM

No

unless they actually figure out how to teach it properly, yes

Plautus · 12-09-2011 03:00AM

Chuck Stone wrote: »

History should be replaced with Philosophy in secondary school. The philosophical mind will then have a better chance of deciphering what is propaganda and what is closer to fact when it comes to social history.

Yeah. That's historiography and the philosophy of history. General philosophy might help you with the historical method, but it's no substitute for, eh, learning about the historical method, the sources (or as the boys in the firm call it - the empirical data), and the events themselves

And why do you single out 'social history' (however you're defining it) as being especially prone to bias? The discipline essentially thrives on professional disputation, and it would be hard to find a 'part' of history that is not contentious and/or witness to accusation and counter-accusation of bias amongst scholars.

Billy86 · 12-09-2011 03:04AM

Bodhidharma wrote: »

History should be compulsory for every human being, not just students. People who are lost with history are generally lost in the world.

Couldn't agree more. I do think though that it should be largely restructured. There is far too much emphasis on 'this happened on that date' and whatnot, which has an importance but should be the be-all and end-all. They should change the history curriculum to be a little similar to what classics is for the leaving cert (e.g. teaching about culture, politics, societal structures, etc).

If they can teach that in a way to show the young teens the sheer absurdities of how certain dictators and such got to power, of how much power the Catholic Church had in Ireland and why it was never challenged, to basically show where society went wrong, why and how it went wrong, what it took for those wrongs to be 'righted' (to differing extents) and so on, that would be a big step in the right direction. Rather than being about a series of chronological events, junior cert history should use the principle of "learn from your mistakes" and apply it to the youth, essentially allowing them to learn from the mistakes of the past.

I am 25, so I have a bit of a memory of 'Catholic, Catholic Ireland' but not as much as many on here would. Kids going into first year now though, would likely have very little idea of it at all. So, for example, if you were to teach them the ins-and-outs of it, they would likely be disgusted, intrigued, and amused (for want of a better word) at the absurdity of it all. Same for the banking crisis for another 10-15 years down the line as another example, or The Troubles to show the dangers of discrimination and better alternative routes to avoid/overcome it.

Use that to teach the dangers of demagoguery, of putting all your faith in one side, or failing to actively question the world around you, and it can avoid situations like that occurring in the future. Also, if anybody thinks situations like that would not happen in the modern world... look at the Tea Party in America

. Kids are very impressionable from ages 11-16, so get about making sure the educational system actually has some impact on shaping them as people (and not vessels for statistical information) during that time.

If done right, it could also turn history from being one of the more 'boring' classes into something very interesting. Shame it will never happen though...

Apologies if that came over as rambling; it's quite late.

Should history be removed as a compulsory subject on the Junior Cert?

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