Should history be removed as a compulsory subject on the Junior Cert?

Dionysus

Just finished reading Fintan O'Toole's article in yesterday's Irish Times denouncing the current proposal by the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment to remove history from the list of compulsory Junior Certificate subjects:

In a memorable decade, why throw history out of the window?

Here's an extract:

'What happens if you dismantle this basic structure and bundle history into some general package of “social sciences” or “humanities”? As it happens, we don’t have to speculate: we can simply look across the water. Exactly this notion has been imposed on children in Britain. The result was spelled out recently by the English historian (and now Labour MP) Tristram Hunt.

Writing in the Observer , Hunt noted that “in most schools, the average 13-year-old is lucky to get one hour a week of history, making it difficult for even the most gifted classroom performer to develop a strong narrative arc. And when it is taught, history is too often batched together with other subjects into a vapid and generalised ‘humanities’ course which fails to do it justice. This state-sanctioned amnesia is becoming acute in some of our most deprived communities.”

Hunt pointed in particular to the way, in Britain, history has become the preserve of the well-to-do. Families who are already well-educated will want their children to study history, and will find a way to insist that they do. In working-class Knowsley, just outside Liverpool, 17 per cent of kids study history. In wealthy Richmond upon Thames, in suburban west London, the corresponding figure is 45 per cent. State-sponsored amnesia isn’t for everyone. It’s only for the masses.

There is surely no conspiracy here, but if you did want to further disenfranchise those who are already on the outside, making them historically illiterate would be a good plan. A sense of history is also a sense of possibility, of change, of community, of collective memory.

Movements of oppressed people – wage slaves, women, racial and national minorities – have always drawn on history for courage, inspiration, identity. Taking that away helps to keep people powerless, disconnected and steeped in the soporific belief that nothing ever changes.

An attack on historical literacy is also an attack on the idea of citizenship. We in Ireland know only too well that public historical narratives can become fossilised into tribal myths. But the answer to this problem is not less history but more. What happens when you cut people off from a sense of their own history isn’t that they cease to have a relationship to the past. It’s that their hunger for that relationship is fed with all kinds of crude and often dangerous nonsense. The current Junior Cert syllabus doesn’t just teach kids historical facts. It gives them an idea of historical method, of the ways in which evidence is gathered and assessed. It provides some protection against the manipulation of emotions by distorted and selective histories.'

---

Do you think history is unimportant enough to be left as an option in Irish schools for the Junior Cert? Should it really only be the preserve of those whom O'Toole argues will come from the more "educated" sections of society?

Nodin

Absolute madness. There's enough of a 'goldfish' phenomena as it is.

Bodhidharma

History should be compulsory for every human being, not just students. People who are lost with history are generally lost in the world.

AnneElizabeth

No

I got an A in Junior Cert History, three years later and I honestly can't remember a single thing. It's a waste of time, as is Geography.

Nodin

AnneElizabeth wrote: »

I got an A in Junior Cert History, three years later and I honestly can't remember a single thing. It's a waste of time, as is Geography.

So screw knowing what happened, where you are, or anywhere else. The world in a continous present....

Paulor94

*put witty comment here*

lol yo're ma

:P

achtungbarry

History is a wonderful subject. Aside from helping us understand the world we live in today it helps develop the ability to critically analyse evidence, form your own opinions and be able to defend them using that evidence.

I had a wonderful history lecturer at NUI Maynooth who actively encouraged us to disagree with him as long as we could back up our viewpoints. I learnt so much from the study of history, much more than simple historical facts. The skills I acquired were so valuable. I also now love reading history books and visiting historical sites.

History is a wonderful subject that should remain on the curriculum as a compulsory subject. It is certainly more useful than the study of poetry in dying minority languages.

whatdoicare

I had my history book read long before September of 1st year- I love History, not so keen on the Military chapters but found them interesting regardless.

Of course it should be compulsory - we all need to know where we came from and how we got there. We have to be able to learn from the mistakes and move forward. Otherwise those future generations interested in nothing but Jersey shore, Xfactor or whatever is the fad, will be all that's left to run the country!:eek:

Stinicker

No they should remove Irish instead.

rossie1977

i remember history at honours level being a walk in the park, bunch of photos and text that needed to be matched up

Stained Class

Stinicker wrote: »

No they should remove Irish instead.

Well said!

History is looking at the past as a guide to the future.

polka dot

I think all the current compulsory subjects should stay compulsory I loved JC history (and LC history even more so...)

The course is nice, the papers are fine and I don't see any logical reason for not having it as a compulsory subject.

Biggins

History helps us understand who we are - how we got there and how to recognise where we are going - besides sometimes helping us to see where we are possibly committing previous mistakes (and learn from them)!

Remove history from the list of compulsory Junior Certificate subjects?
I think they should remove those that made the stupid suggestion!

efb

Go to the tech- not compulsory there!

General General

Dionysus wrote: »

Just finished reading Fintan O'Toole's article in yesterday's Irish Times denouncing the current proposal by the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment to remove history from the list of compulsory Junior Certificate subjects:

In a memorable decade, why throw history out of the window?

Here's an extract:

'What happens if you dismantle this basic structure and bundle history into some general package of “social sciences” or “humanities”? As it happens, we don’t have to speculate: we can simply look across the water. Exactly this notion has been imposed on children in Britain. The result was spelled out recently by the English historian (and now Labour MP) Tristram Hunt.

Writing in the Observer , Hunt noted that “in most schools, the average 13-year-old is lucky to get one hour a week of history, making it difficult for even the most gifted classroom performer to develop a strong narrative arc. And when it is taught, history is too often batched together with other subjects into a vapid and generalised ‘humanities’ course which fails to do it justice. This state-sanctioned amnesia is becoming acute in some of our most deprived communities.”

Hunt pointed in particular to the way, in Britain, history has become the preserve of the well-to-do. Families who are already well-educated will want their children to study history, and will find a way to insist that they do. In working-class Knowsley, just outside Liverpool, 17 per cent of kids study history. In wealthy Richmond upon Thames, in suburban west London, the corresponding figure is 45 per cent. State-sponsored amnesia isn’t for everyone. It’s only for the masses.

There is surely no conspiracy here, but if you did want to further disenfranchise those who are already on the outside, making them historically illiterate would be a good plan. A sense of history is also a sense of possibility, of change, of community, of collective memory.

Movements of oppressed people – wage slaves, women, racial and national minorities – have always drawn on history for courage, inspiration, identity. Taking that away helps to keep people powerless, disconnected and steeped in the soporific belief that nothing ever changes.

An attack on historical literacy is also an attack on the idea of citizenship. We in Ireland know only too well that public historical narratives can become fossilised into tribal myths. But the answer to this problem is not less history but more. What happens when you cut people off from a sense of their own history isn’t that they cease to have a relationship to the past. It’s that their hunger for that relationship is fed with all kinds of crude and often dangerous nonsense. The current Junior Cert syllabus doesn’t just teach kids historical facts. It gives them an idea of historical method, of the ways in which evidence is gathered and assessed. It provides some protection against the manipulation of emotions by distorted and selective histories.'

---

Do you think history is unimportant enough to be left as an option in Irish schools for the Junior Cert? Should it really only be the preserve of those whom O'Toole argues will come from the more "educated" sections of society?

Kids in Richmond read History as the winners, kids in Knowsley read it as the losers.

& History is bunk.

I support a Research & Research Methods course to replace History & Geography.

Dionysus

Stained Class wrote: »

Well said!

It's far past boring how you never fail to bring your hatred of Irish into as many threads as possible, Stained Class. Time to find a new scapegoat.

youngblood

Stinicker wrote: »

No they should remove Irish instead.

If Irish is to be removed or made optional, so should English

Teutorix

youngblood wrote: »

If Irish is to be removed or made optional, so should English

Because we dont need english in everyday life, for things like, writing letters, applying for jobs, reading anything anywhere that is in english. :rolleyes:

woodoo

AnneElizabeth wrote: »

I got an A in Junior Cert History, three years later and I honestly can't remember a single thing. It's a waste of time, as is Geography.

It wouldn't take much to jog your memory. If you never covered it at all you would truly be ignorant of history and geography.

youngblood

Teutorix wrote: »

Because we dont need english in everyday life, for things like, writing letters, applying for jobs, reading anything anywhere that is in english. :rolleyes:

Unfortunately-none of the English curriculum at second level deals with any of the things you mentioned

Dionysus

Teutorix wrote: »

Because we dont need english in everyday life, for things like, writing letters, applying for jobs, reading anything anywhere that is in english. :rolleyes:

Here we go again with the obvious retort to this chimera: and of course when we read Shakespeare and the rest of those esoteric pointless types, we are really learning about how to write job applications and how to read modern English? (because, of course, most of us apparently don't know how to read unless we study Shakespeare :rolleyes:)

Now, back to the merits or otherwise of history.

Teutorix

youngblood wrote: »

Unfortunately-none of the English curriculum at second level deals with any of the things you mentioned

Yes it does, i just finished my leaving cert this year. We learned how to write business letters including job applications and C.V.s

Liam Byrne

History should be taught, but keeping in mind that history books are usually written by the "victors" in a conflict, or by partisan / localised commentators.

I mean, I wouldn't trust a history book referring to the past decade as written by an FF apologist.

Remember when we were all playing cowboys & indians, and the indians were the baddies, except for the fact that we now know that they were defending their own land from being taken from them by the cowboys ?

A comprehensive, unbiased version of history should be compulsory, but I don't think the human race has ever had access to such a thing.

Teutorix

Liam Byrne wrote: »

A comprehensive, unbiased version of history should be compulsory, but I don't think the human race has ever had access to such a thing.

Well natural history is about as unbiased as it gets. But thats not what we learn about in school.

youngblood

Teutorix wrote: »

Yes it does, i just finished my leaving cert this year. We learned how to write business letters including job applications and C.V.s

Was that examined/assessed in your main English Paper 1/2?

Was it covered in the main English programme or was it LCAP?

EarlERizer

"A people without the knowledge of their past history, origin and culture is like a tree without roots" - Marcus Garvey

Stinicker

youngblood wrote: »

If Irish is to be removed or made optional, so should English

I disagree, English in the language of our country, it is highly important that we educate our people in both our current language and the International Language of Business and Trade. The vast majority of other countries focus mainly on English as their second language. However in Ireland we focus on Irish as the second language with a slight sprinkling of French to confuse matters even more.

Ireland should drop Irish to a speciality subject and facilitate those who genuinely want to learn it and stop trying to beat it into the rest of us who don't care for the subject.

We should be teaching students Mandarin Chinese, Spanish and Portugeuse three important language for Latin America and China. Irish is of no use to no one and its continued teaching is a waste of time and resources. Where are Irish people immigrating to today? The UK, Oz, NZ, Canada and the USA and all have practically no second language skills. Portuguese and Spanish immigrants are flocking to Latin America where there are great opportunities yet for most Irish people this isn't a great option.

Irish was preserved by Fianna Fail as a way of trying to exclude the Public Sector from hiring the more intelligent members of society and you were told to learn Irish to get into the civil service for a job for life.

Irish is effecting students grades when they should be learning more important subjects which would enable them to be employable outside this rainswept rock we call home.

jive

"The only thing we learn from history is that we learn nothing from history." - Friedrich Hegel

If we weren't taught 11 compulsory subjects then I'd make an argument for it not being compulsory but when things such as CSPE and religion are compulsory you can hardly make any decent argument that history shouldn't be.

Teutorix

youngblood wrote: »

Was that examined/assessed in your main English Paper 1/2?

Was is the main English programme or was it Applied?

It can come up in paper one. Its in the leaving cert books also. They cant examine everything every year. A good standard of English will stand to anyone applying for a job in nearly any field, Irish however will not. Saying that English should be abolished if Irish is is just fúcking ignorant. Irish is a cultural language, it has no real application unless you want to read to news to the handful of people who watch the news in Irish.

Stained Class

Dionysus wrote: »

It's far past boring how you never fail to bring your hatred of Irish into as many threads as possible, Stained Class. Time to find a new scapegoat.

Get over yourself & stick to the subject in hand.

I didn't bring it up!:mad:

Teutorix

jive wrote: »

"The only thing we learn from history is that we learn nothing from history." - Friedrich Hegel

If we weren't taught 11 compulsory subjects then I'd make an argument for it not being compulsory but when things such as CSPE and religion are compulsory you can hardly make any decent argument that history shouldn't be.

Religion isnt compulsory, we never did it in my school.

Biggins

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"

George Santayana

Logical Fallacy

Threads like this normally boil down to people wanting to get rid of the subjects they sucked at.

Dionysus

jive wrote: »

"The only thing we learn from history is that we learn nothing from history." - Friedrich Hegel

If we weren't taught 11 compulsory subjects then I'd make an argument for it not being compulsory but when things such as CSPE and religion are compulsory you can hardly make any decent argument that history shouldn't be.

The new proposal is that there will be four compulsory subjects henceforth: English, Irish, Maths and, now, Science. Everything else, including Geography, will be optional. If this NCCA proposal is accepted it is anticipated that the new system will begin for first years in September 2012.

youngblood

Teutorix wrote: »

It can come up in paper one. Its in the leaving cert books also. They cant examine everything every year. A good standard of English will stand to anyone applying for a job in nearly any field

Its great to hear that they've included these things in the English curriculum.
im glad its changed and moved focus away from the usual essay writing, poetry reponses,novels, modern and shakespearan dramas etc

Aoifey!

I hated History, it was my worst subject, I did ordinary...but it should still be compulsory for the Junior Cert.

You can make an arguement for almost every subject to not be compulsory if you try hard enough, but why not let students learn a bit of everything up until Junior Cert, and then let them drop it from there on.

Teutorix

youngblood wrote: »

Its great to hear that they've included these things in the English curriculum.
im glad its changed and moved focus away from the usual essay writing, poetry reponses,novels, modern and shakespearan dramas etc

It may be in the curriculum but the majority of marks still go for all that sh!te. At most it will be 50 marks of the whole exam for a functional piece of english (excluding the essay if you choose a speech or something)

Dionysus

Teutorix wrote: »

Yes it does, i just finished my leaving cert this year. We learned how to write business letters including job applications and C.V.s

Kids are learning how to do this in 1st year of the Business Studies course, as their predecessors have been doing for many years. If the English curriculum is trying to teach this for the LC I'm not quite sure that this bodes well for your contention that the English curriculum is relevant and essential to Irish students.

Teutorix

Dionysus wrote: »

Kids are learning how to do this in 1st year of the Business Studies course, as their predecessors have been doing for many years. If the English curriculum is trying to teach this for the LC I'm not quite sure that this bodes well for your contention that the English curriculum is relevant and essential to Irish students.

Im not saying its covered well in all schools. But it is on the cirriculum and if it was taught right it would be effective. That said there is too much poetry and literature. But English should never be abolished as a subject.

Logical Fallacy

Dionysus wrote: »

Kids are learning how to do this in 1st year of the Business Studies course, as their predecessors have been doing for many years. If the English curriculum is trying to teach this for the LC I'm not quite sure that this bodes well for your contention that the English curriculum is relevant and essential to Irish students.

I think English is important for it's study of poems, plays and short stories. I will be completely honest and say if someone can't pick up the subtext or theme of a literary work i generally assume they are pretty damn dim.

So lets keep English so i don't despair at the world more than i already do.

Dionysus

Teutorix wrote: »

It may be in the curriculum but the majority of marks still go for all that sh!te. At most it will be 50 marks of the whole exam for a functional piece of english (excluding the essay if you choose a speech or something)

If the current English curriculum could get Irish students to stop saying things like "I seen them boys"; "I done that"; "you should of done that"; "he throne [threw] it at me" ad infinitum it would be a success. The basics are still not taught, and it shows. In curriculum terms, that is the fault of that curriculum and no other.

Most Irish people only understand English grammar when they learn another language.

confusticated

Teutorix wrote: »

Religion isnt compulsory, we never did it in my school.

When did you do the JC? I did mine in 2005 and we were the first year of my school to do it, another school in town had had it in place for two years and it was planned to be in place nationally by 2007 afaik.

I didn't actually know history was compulsory, is it in all schools? I definitely have one friend who never did it in secondary school.

charlemont

No, History is very important to students as it can help explain a multitude of problems the world faces today, People with a good grasp of history tend to be more open minded and think outside the box, More tolerant of other cultures too.



Got an A in honours at the junior myself.:cool:

Icyseanfitz

yeah...no the only way we will advance as a race is if we learn from our past mistakes and victories aka history not teaching people about horrors such as hitler and ww2 would be opening us up for it to happen again

Teutorix

Dionysus wrote: »

If the current English curriculum could get Irish students to stop saying things like "I seen them boys"; "I done that"; "you should of done that"; "he throne [threw] it at me" ad infinitum it would be a success. The basics are still not taught, and it shows. In curriculum terms, that is the fault of that curriculum and no other.

Most Irish people only understand English grammar when they learn another language.

You cant blame the cirriculum for that when plenty of people grow up speaking perfectly fine English. Getting people to use correct syntax and grammar has to take place in the early years not at the age of 16/17/18. I have always used the best English available to me because of a few reasons. 1. my parents spoke to me like a human being, and never used idiotic baby talk. (neither of them having an education past leaving cert) 2. I was reading books while my peers had the attitude that reading books was "gay" 3. I payed attention in primary school where we learned the basics.

There is no excuse for people who sat the LC with me not knowing the difference between an adjective and and adverb when we were in the same english class in primary school.

Teutorix

confusticated wrote: »

When did you do the JC? I did mine in 2005 and we were the first year of my school to do it, another school in town had had it in place for two years and it was planned to be in place nationally by 2007 afaik.

I didn't actually know history was compulsory, is it in all schools? I definitely have one friend who never did it in secondary school.

2005 i think. didn't know it was being made mandatory. my sister just did her JC and she didnt sit religion either.

strobe

Jesus Christ what an awful suggestion. History is the study of humanity. If someone is willing to put forward an argument about humanity not being a relevant thing to learn about in school I'm all ears.

don ramo

you'll never know where your heading if you don't know where you came from,

i dunno who said that but it has always stuck with me,

i was never great at history but i do think its a vital subject that should be thought up to junior cert level at least, a very small number of students would pick history at 13, but at 16/17 youll know more about yourself and have some grasp of what you might do after your leaving cert, so youd be more likely to pick it for the LC,

also like i said i wasnt much good at it, but i remember in 3rd year when the class got split between honours and ordinary, i went with the honours crowd as i wanted to learn about my own countrys history, i wanted to know how i came to be here in this country, i dont need to know how billy hick came to be in tennesse,

history should be kept, and more irish history should be put into the ciriculum, also it mightent make a difference but i think it would be more interesting if the teachers learned a bit of the local history of the town they teach in, it would help get the students more interested in history that is right at there doorstep,

also it would be good if there was a recomended viewing material for students to watch at home, like the world at war series, that could then be disscussed in class,

also the irish language is one of the few pieces of truly irish culture remaining, and should be thought as well as it can, it might never become our national language again but it somthing worth keeping, i myself was useless at it, and ended up dropping it half way through 6th year as i didnt want any fails on my leaving cert and i always said to myself ill never do foundation level, its deffinately a regret that i didnt learn my true national language,

jive

Teutorix wrote: »

Religion isnt compulsory, we never did it in my school.

Fúckin' was in my school!! Got an A in it but it wasn't even worth it for the shíte I had to learn. It was probably equal to CSPE in ease though so once ya get a good grade it makes your bit of paper look good :P

Dionysus wrote: »

The new proposal is that there will be four compulsory subjects henceforth: English, Irish, Maths and, now, Science. Everything else, including Geography, will be optional. If this NCCA proposal is accepted it is anticipated that the new system will begin for first years in September 2012.

Sigh as if Irish made it in there to be compulsory along with English, maths and science. Maths, English and science should be the only compulsory subjects IMO. Every job you're ever going to get will involve at least 1 of those 3. While history, geography, Irish etc. etc. all have their place I don't think any of them should be compulsory if that new system were to come in. As it stands though history should be compulsory because there are a lot more pointless subjects in the mix than history to be worrying about.

stealinhorses

Of course it should stay compulsory for the JC... as they say: "you don't know where you're going unless you know where you came from".

I do think, however, that the exam at LC level should be restructured. It favours people writing massive amounts of BS, over those with genuine insights and knowledge.

Liam Byrne

Teutorix wrote: »

You cant blame the cirriculum ...

I payed attention....

Cough!