€100bn public sector pension bill

Console · 11-09-2011 07:53PM

gigino wrote: »

yes, considering the country is bust and the IMF is here. Why should the government be spending about double what is does on the public service compared to ten years ago ? Why should the public sector worker in Dundalk be paid so much more than the public sector worker in Newry, and so much more than private sector worker in Dundalk?

Well I've heard there is a current employment freeze. But lets say I did get a job in the cleansing department in dublin city council. I go around cleaning the streets. So I guess you would deem my rate too be too high? ... so in other words you would think nothing of taking the crust out of my mouth?

Its one thing to go on about the over paid higher ups. points came be made. But to talk about average joe blow? and wanting ... lets be honest WISHING his wage was slashed? :rolleyes: ... what, "fu*k the sod give him min wage! but in my job i want more money!" :rolleyes:

The_Thing · 11-09-2011 07:59PM

gigino wrote: »

One public sector moderator in politics decides to shoot ( ban ) the messenger. Thats says more about boards.ie than anything else.

You were banned from politics for repeated trolling.

Scofflaw wrote: »

gigino, you've been banned twice already for trolling and persistently making inflammatory claims about PS workers. Last time I warned you that further behaviour along the same lines would result in a permaban.

And here we are. So, permabanned from Politics.

moderately,
Scofflaw

gigino · 11-09-2011 07:59PM

Console wrote: »

... so in other words you would think nothing of taking the crust out of my mouth?

I would not take the crust out of you mouth....maybe just give you less cake. I would simply say thats its unsustainable that we continue to have some the highest paid public servants in the world. The cleaners wages should be brought down to at least European levels. Why should cleaners here have a higher standard of living than those in the countries the IMF lenders come from ?

gigino · 11-09-2011 08:00PM

The_Thing wrote: »

You were banned from politics for repeated trolling.

any chance you would go for the ball, not the player?;)

squod · 11-09-2011 08:25PM

Given we are talking about a few hundred people, mostly former members of the Oireachtas and holders of a range of senior-level public- sector positions, they could all be reclassed under a new revenue code that taxes each of them individually so that all income they receive from the private sector is taken into account.

The end result would be that the taxpayer never pays anyone a pension of more than €60,000, the cap advocated by Fine Gael in its election manifesto, and even that is far too generous.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/letters/golden-pensions-2871863.html

Desmond FitzGerald, journalist, echoing the sentiment of the thread so far. Dunno how to raise this issue to another level. Feel outraged at the cost of this and the backtracking by FF/FG so far.

Yakult · 11-09-2011 09:11PM

Same shìt, different name.

gigino · 11-09-2011 09:14PM

squod wrote: »

Feel outraged at the cost of this and the backtracking by FF/FG so far.

I am disappointed at the IMF for not tackling the issue ....the government itself + its mates are some of its benefficaries

not yet · 11-09-2011 09:49PM

gigino wrote: »

I am disappointed at the IMF for not tackling the issue ....the government itself + its mates are some of its benefficaries

Yeah,yeah. and fvucking yeah..............happy now

Degsy · 11-09-2011 09:52PM

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Sorry I just think it's kind of funny that you can see the merits of cuts in the private sector, social welfare, children's allowance and the top of the public sector. To me it looks a bit like you can see the merits in cuts for everyone except the group that you just happen to fall into.

You might not even work in the PS but that's just what it looks like from that post.

You're the one who's all bent out of shape coz you failed to land a PS job some time back..

And as for believing a word that comes out of Eddie Hobbs mouth..the fcucker was telling people to remortage thier homes in order to buy property in Cape Verde...Cape Verde!!

not yet · 11-09-2011 10:02PM

Degsy wrote: »

You're the one who's all bent out of shape coz you failed to land a PS job some time back..

And as for believing a word that comes out of Eddie Hobbs mouth..the fcucker was telling people to remortage thier homes in order to buy property in Cape Verde...Cape Verde!!

spot on there degsy.

Some muppets in this country would cut the wage of a joe soap driving a truck for the council.

Console · 11-09-2011 10:02PM

not yet wrote: »

Yeah,yeah. and fvucking yeah..............happy now

I preferred the other way

not yet · 11-09-2011 10:07PM

gigino wrote: »

I am disappointed at the IMF for not tackling the issue ....the government itself + its mates are some of its benefficaries

P.S Learn to spell please it's less irritating.

not yet · 11-09-2011 10:08PM

Console wrote: »

I preferred the other way

True.......but i'd have got a ban:)

goose2005 · 11-09-2011 10:09PM

Console wrote: »

So you begrude someone getting paid more? ... so instead of council workers getting privatised money - which would be what around ten euro an hour? .. you'd begrude workers getting 12-14 per hour from the council? .. remember, its not like they are getting 20euro p.h.

Thats pretty terrible. Thats like begruding someone who works is tesco or something because you deem their rate is "too high"

Yes, I do "begrudge" it. Why should I pay (via taxes) €14 an hour for a job, when the going rate is €10 an hour? Would you be OK with a state-run supermarket, subsidised by tax-payers, paying €20 an hour to employees who provide substandard service and cannot be fired?

So if you were in their job you would decline such a pension right?

Of course not, but that's irrelevant. No-one would refuse if the government offered them a million euro for no reason - that is hardly an argument for handing out a million euro to random people.

not yet wrote: »

spot on there degsy.

Some muppets in this country would cut the wage of a joe soap driving a truck for the council.

I would, if his wage was higher than that of someone driving a truck for a local firm - and if he couldn't be fired and got a far more generous pension. The state is basically bankrupt. Our balance is climbing towards minus €200,000,000,000.

not yet · 11-09-2011 10:16PM

goose2005 wrote: »

Yes, I do "begrudge" it. Why should I pay (via taxes) €14 an hour for a job, when the going rate is €10 an hour? Would you be OK with a state-run supermarket, subsidised by tax-payers, paying €20 an hour to employees who provide substandard service and cannot be fired?

Of course not, but that's irrelevant. No-one would refuse if the government offered them a million euro for no reason - that is hardly an argument for handing out a million euro to random people.

I would, if his wage was higher than that of someone driving a truck for a local firm - and if he couldn't be fired and got a far more generous pension. The state is basically bankrupt. Our balance is climbing towards minus €200,000,000,000.

I do the time returns for two drivers in a local council.

They both earn 10.95 an hour, but what the **** cut them to minimum wage........or better still do away with minimum wage and let dog eat dog. eh goose, how about that for a plan

not yet · 11-09-2011 10:23PM

goose2005 wrote: »

Yes, I do "begrudge" it. Why should I pay (via taxes) €14 an hour for a job, when the going rate is €10 an hour? Would you be OK with a state-run supermarket, subsidised by tax-payers, paying €20 an hour to employees who provide substandard service and cannot be fired?

Of course not, but that's irrelevant. No-one would refuse if the government offered them a million euro for no reason - that is hardly an argument for handing out a million euro to random people.

I would, if his wage was higher than that of someone driving a truck for a local firm - and if he couldn't be fired and got a far more generous pension. The state is basically bankrupt. Our balance is climbing towards minus €200,000,000,000.

And the 200 billion will be solved by cutting the wage of low paid council workers, jesus christ can't you fvcking people tell the difference between a consultant and a local council worker.

galwayrush · 11-09-2011 10:23PM

In the real world, no money in the kitty means no money to pay out.
The country is broke, the pampered elite should get a massive cut in their massive pensions as a result.

not yet · 11-09-2011 10:31PM

galwayrush wrote: »

In the real world, no money in the kitty means no money to pay out.
The country is broke, the pampered elite should get a massive cut in their massive pensions as a result.

Ah.....another ill informed person, how original.

Degsy · 11-09-2011 10:34PM

goose2005 wrote: »

Yes, I do "begrudge" it. Why should I pay (via taxes) €14 an hour for a job, when the going rate is €10 an hour? Would you be OK with a state-run supermarket, subsidised by tax-payers, paying €20 an hour to employees who provide substandard service and cannot be fired?

Of course not, but that's irrelevant. No-one would refuse if the government offered them a million euro for no reason - that is hardly an argument for handing out a million euro to random people.

I would, if his wage was higher than that of someone driving a truck for a local firm - and if he couldn't be fired and got a far more generous pension. The state is basically bankrupt. Our balance is climbing towards minus €200,000,000,000.

Too many people on the dole while foreign people do the work irish people feel is beneath them..."why should *I* work in Centra with *my* degree?

Da_Doc · 11-09-2011 10:41PM

The arguements put up here by the public sector bashers are so tired. Teachers, nurses, gards etc. are doing the same job with less resources, having to put in extra hours than they were originally contracted for and payn more than a persons dole a week in taxes and other contributions. For example a teacher of four years experience with a Gross of 36k taking home 24k a year.

Do we or do we not want to attract high quality graduates into these jobs. I for one want high quality teachers teaching my children should I in the future be lucky enough to have them. I want nurses who are happy in their work looking after my parents as they get older god forbid they need any healthcare.

As for the arguments saying that we should get rid of the defined benefit pensions, these used to be common place in the private and public sector and still should be. I never thought id hear workers shouting to give up even more workers rights than already have in recent years.

I fully agree that there shoul be efficiency gains made in how the public sector is being run and that needs to start right at the top but bashing frontline taxpaying workers is ridiculous and completely counter productive.

not yet · 11-09-2011 10:47PM

Da_Doc wrote: »

The arguements put up here by the public sector bashers are so tired. Teachers, nurses, gards etc. are doing the same job with less resources, having to put in extra hours than they were originally contracted for and payn more than a persons dole a week in taxes and other contributions. For example a teacher of four years experience with a Gross of 36k taking home 24k a year.

Do we or do we not want to attract high quality graduates into these jobs. I for one want high quality teachers teaching my children should I in the future be lucky enough to have them. I want nurses who are happy in their work looking after my parents as they get older god forbid they need any healthcare.

As for the arguments saying that we should get rid of the defined benefit pensions, these used to be common place in the private and public sector and still should be. I never thought id hear workers shouting to give up even more workers rights than already have in recent years.

I fully agree that there shoul be efficiency gains made in how the public sector is being run and that needs to start right at the top but bashing frontline taxpaying workers is ridiculous and completely counter productive.

One of the best framed,most educated posts I've seen here.

Why can't more people have this outlook !!!! yeah cut the pay of guys on 200k or 150k but ffs how can you justify cutting someone on 22k

tails_naf · 11-09-2011 10:55PM

There are a few tactics/patterns of attack that are used in every single one of these debates by the same folks that totally derail the discussion - which I'm sure is the intention.

1) When the issue of huge pensions/pay or very high average salaries comes up etc - immediately we hear talk of 'loads' of people on 22k, and how could we dream of cutting anything in the PS as these people are already half on the breadline.

Believe me - almost no one wants to hit the lads on 22k. It's dishonest to always direct the discussion to talk about those. If there were cuts, I'm sure we could all agree they would be on a sliding scale to those on 22k wouldn't be touched.

2) The word begrudger is thrown around wildly, without basis. Any comment that some pay is too much, some perk is too good, is met with 'ahh you're a begrudger'.

Not so in most cases. There are no shortage of begrudgers in all walks of life - but Just because I would say I don't like how my taxes are being spent on higher that average/going rate salaries, uncapped defined benefit pensions that only track up, or final years of work given as holidays - doesn't make me a begrudger. I just want value for money, a decent return on investment, etc.

3) The absolute unwillingness to admit there is waste, there are few incentives to work hard beyond personal drive, and the assertion that performance reviews and consequences based on performance have no affect.

I know keeping the status quo is important for those in the PS, as there is a fear any chink in the armor at all and all will be lost. However, unless there is an honest effort by those in the PS to admit to, and weed out the waste, then the only long term solution will be pretty drastic for the average PS worker (the hard-workers and the lazy alike).

Note - as I've mentioned in a number of comments, a number of my family members, relations and friends are PS workers, and most are VERY diligent, dedicated, hard workers - and most also can point to at least 2-3 in their offices of 20 or so people that are absolutely dead wood. So 10 to 15% based on this personal sample.
So the question has to be addressed - weed out the dead wood percentage people, and cut costs, or instead accept a blanket salary reduction of the same percentage. I will happen sooner or later.

Console · 11-09-2011 10:55PM

goose2005 wrote: »

Yes, I do "begrudge" it. Why should I pay (via taxes) €14 an hour for a job, when the going rate is €10 an hour? Would you be OK with a state-run supermarket, subsidised by tax-payers, paying €20 an hour to employees who provide substandard service and cannot be fired?

I hate the whole 'I pay their taxes so I pay their job' mentality .. Taxes are forced upon us. We all contribute to the pool. Sadly we dont have a say. Sucks but true.

But as for what you said ... I mean, no one was stopping you (or anyone else) from getting a job in the council and getting that "over paid" wage.
Its quite funny tho. Only as recession hit (and people were loosing their jobs) that people had an issue with the PS and its "over-paying" jobs. Like against the higher ups? fair enough. But even average jow-blow? not really right .. I reckon as soon as people were loosing their jobs they moaned and begrudery came out ... "I lost my job and theres some lazy fecker in the council getting 13 euro an hour! bleeding joke!" - same person had no issue when he was making good money pre-recession.

gigino · 11-09-2011 10:57PM

not yet wrote: »

P.S Learn to spell please it's less irritating.

not yet wrote: »

........or better still do away with minimum wage and let dog eat dog. eh goose, how about that for a plan

I'll learn to spell when you learn to punctuate.;)

Console wrote: »

I hate the whole 'I pay their taxes so I pay their job' mentality .. Taxes are forced upon us. We all contribute to the pool.

The private sector are the net contributers to the "pool", as you call it. People paid by the government on the other hand...

galwayrush · 11-09-2011 11:02PM

not yet wrote: »

Ah.....another ill informed person, how original.

Ill informed... ffs:pac::pac::pac: . I live in the real world,any time i don't get paid by a client, i have no income , i can't see why my tax money should be paying over the odds pensions for pampered overpaid people. In the real world, we can only draw down on what we collect. Hard to understand for some i guess....:pac::pac::pac:

not yet · 11-09-2011 11:03PM

gigino wrote: »

I'll learn to spell when you learn to punctuate.;)

yeah how bout u do tat then and weel all be happy then we can get back two the proper debate bout da politics

galwayrush · 11-09-2011 11:05PM

not yet wrote: »

One of the best framed,most educated posts I've seen here.

Why can't more people have this outlook !!!! yeah cut the pay of guys on 200k or 150k but ffs how can you justify cutting someone on 22k

200 / 150 K a year are the pampered elite i was refering to, not hard working staff on the front line.

woodoo · 11-09-2011 11:05PM

Console wrote: »

I hate the whole 'I pay their taxes so I pay their job' mentality .. Taxes are forced upon us. We all contribute to the pool. Sadly we dont have a say. Sucks but true.

Thats true. If you work then you pay your taxes or else you're breaking the law. Its not a choice or a generous contribution.

Da_Doc · 11-09-2011 11:20PM

gigino wrote: »

The private sector are the net contributers to the "pool", as you call it. People paid by the government on the other hand...

I know lets privatise the public sector then the workers can be paid by corporations and can be net contributers too. Get real, these are jobs that have to be done and the people doing them have to be paid by someone.

I 100% agree with earlier posters that there is wastage and serious efficiency gains could be made but public sector workers are huge contributers in terms of taxes, in terms of consumption expenditure, and in many cases they were doing jobs that many didnt want to do pre recession.

gigino · 11-09-2011 11:21PM

And what do you think the government spends all this tax money on, as well as the 20 billion or so per year it needs to borrow to keep the show on the road ? A large part goes on the " public sector pension bill ", as mentioned by the o.p. The thing that Michael O'Leary calls a " scam".

€100bn public sector pension bill

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