Joan Burton will drive up the number of old people suffering from cold this winter

Wibbs · 11-09-2011 10:33AM

El Weirdo wrote: »

Have you ever reported this person, Wibbs? If so, what was the outcome?

I didn't but someone else did. And what happened EL? Nothing. Ditto for another chancer I know who was reported by someone who he had ripped off.

Slightly disingenuous, tbf. They get a certain amount of free electricity credits, a fuel allowance and I believe that the line rental for the phone is free and they still have to pay for the calls.

Exactly. More than disingenuous IMH. They get a percentage off their electricity and it's not very high. Like you say it's a fuel allowance, not free fuel. Free travel on public transport is hardly breaking the bank either. Free phone line rental yes, not free calls. They lose the majority of these benefits if they live with a non retired person, so if headmaster's parent is getting any of that, beyond the medical card and the bus pass she's defrauding the system.

headmaster wrote:

Ole age pensioners are being paid way too much in money and extras, time for them to pay up. As a matter of interest, the majority paid nothing to this state all their lives. Truth hurts, doesn't it fella? Now it's time for pay up and shut up. End.

Huh? I dunno why you take such issue with pensioners, nor spout a lot of misinformed stuff about what they're entitled to? Maybe it's projection of conflict within your own situation? Who knows. Anyway where you get the "majority paid nothing to this state all their lives" notion is beyond me. So we didn't have a tax system in place since the foundation of this state then? We didn't have income tax or VAT or motor tax or... until you got your first job? That we somehow leaped from some odd taxless, jobless society to today? That somehow our parents, grandparents and great grandparents sat around all day, tax free, not building and maintaining this society? Truth hurts indeed.

amacachi · 11-09-2011 10:35AM

It's odd, on the one hand I keep hearing how 188 a week is enough for people to smoke, drink and smoke loads of drugs and yet pensioners on 219 supposedly can't afford to heat their house. Amazing.

mossyc123 · 11-09-2011 10:37AM

Bens wrote: »

Leave the pensioners alone. They have gone through more hardship now and in the past than any of the rest of us will ever see.

I don't know about the hardship thing really.

Someone turning 65 this year was born in 1946 not 1846.

The 1960's was probably a better time to be starting your working life then 2011 is.

We've a tendency to look back as if the country was some sort of a hellhole before 1990.

I don't buy it and I think it's a convenient piece of BS peddled by the older generation.

booboo88 · 11-09-2011 10:37AM

dark crystal wrote: »

In that case, it was a young mother who froze to death, not an elderly person.

I agree to an extent with the poster above, who stated that many pensioners have quite a lot of benefits, but not a lot of overheads. Why should they not be touched at all, in that case?

exactly my point, elderly people would be more vulnerable than a young person.

4leto · 11-09-2011 10:39AM

booboo88 wrote: »

I know but if they weren't so quick to give it to anyone on social welfare, elderly people do need their heat etc, i can see this ending with a few people dying being honest, remember last year when the woman froze to death as the council never turn back on the heating?

we're in for a bloody harsh winter and i think its a disgrace that we're cutting the most vulnerable. by that i mean the elderly, not the young ones who were "means tested"

And off course I couldn't disagree with that, I was reading another government department (local Government) was stacking up on grit. So some branches of government are preparing for a harsh winter.

I would love to say, don't cut anywhere, I don't know about fuel allowance entitlement for younger "means tested" people, but are there children involved in those means tests.

It is harsh and in comparison to any European country and even if fuel allowance is cut our OAPs are generous.

Wibbs · 11-09-2011 10:39AM

amacachi wrote: »

It's odd, on the one hand I keep hearing how 188 a week is enough for people to smoke, drink and smoke loads of drugs and yet pensioners on 219 supposedly can't afford to heat their house. Amazing.

Oh I agree. The problem as I see it is that the government(as per usual) won't be inventive with the cuts. Yes cut the pension, but apply the cuts to those who don't require the pension first. The well off pensioners that have independent pensions for a start. There's a vast gulf between say a retired surgeon paying no mortgage or rent and a working class widow living in rented accommodation.

Mike 1972 · 11-09-2011 10:41AM

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Surely it would be more cost effecient to, say, take out adds in papers or on TV telling people they may be entitled. I'd imagine you'd get less chancers that way....

Not everyone reads papers or watches TV (even those who do may not watch/read Irish channels/papers) If anything Irish government departments spend too much on advertising (much of it completely pointless).

On the other hand their IT systems should be set up to ensure that only those actually entitled to the benefit should get the letters or better still should work out from the information already available to them who is entitled to the benefit and pay it automatically.

But if the SW system were actually efficient half the paper pushers would be out of work.

meitina · 11-09-2011 10:42AM

headmaster wrote: »

Oh gosh, i thought they decided they wanted me, not the other way round. I'd have thought that their responsibility was to bring me up as i wasn't working from 0 yrs to 16. Ole age pensioners are being paid way too much in money and extras, time for them to pay up. As a matter of interest, the majority paid nothing to this state all their lives. Truth hurts, doesn't it fella? Now it's time for pay up and shut up. End.

Oh,gosh!You are talking,like the old age might never catch you!
we all gonna be old one day,and you are going to have a taste of your own medicine, judging from what you'll teach your own kids....

booboo88 · 11-09-2011 10:43AM

4leto wrote: »

And off course I couldn't disagree with that, I was reading another government department (local Government) was stacking up on grit. So some branches of government are preparing for a harsh winter.

I would love to say, don't cut anywhere, I don't know about fuel allowance entitlement for younger "means tested" people, but are there children involved in those means tests.

It is harsh and in comparison to any European country and even if fuel allowance is cut our OAPs are generous.

So screw the elderly, they've had their day?

amacachi · 11-09-2011 10:44AM

Wibbs wrote: »

Oh I agree. The problem as I see it is that the government(as per usual) won't be inventive with the cuts. Yes cut the pension, but apply the cuts to those who don't require the pension first. The well off pensioners that have independent pensions for a start. There's a vast gulf between say a retired surgeon paying no mortgage or rent and a working class widow living in rented accommodation.

Exactly, but remember when FF (and I hate FF :pac: ) tried to cut the medical card for the ludicrously well-off top couple of percent of pensioners and they were "shamed" into making a U-turn? Now of course everyone will be cut a few quid a week. Also as far as I know it's not just pensioners losing this heating allowance, it's people on the dole, invalidity, disability etc.

dark crystal · 11-09-2011 10:44AM

booboo88 wrote: »

exactly my point, elderly people would be more vulnerable than a young person.

How was an elderly person more vulnerable in that case than the young mother who actually froze to death?

Solair · 11-09-2011 10:46AM

One of the biggest problems is the standard of building insulation / heating in Ireland and also in Britain. There are still many homes that have no central heating and almost no insulation and they tend to be occupied by elderly people.

There was something odd about British and Irish attitudes to cold weather in the past. It was like we pretended that we didn't actually have any.

In fact, Ireland's probably a bit better than England when it comes to central heating. It's amazing the amount of flats in England you'll find have nothing only electric heaters (and I'm not talking storage heating!)

A friend of mine lives in a flat in London and just before the harshest winter in about 30 years the local council decided that the double-glazing that had been fitted 20 years ago had to be removed as it was suddenly deemed to be a heritage building!

They now have damp problems and last winter had ice hanging from the ceiling over the windows!

There is something severely wrong with a bunch of regulations that would basically require people to freeze in order to ensure that the building looks sufficiently pretty.

To get back to Ireland - the biggest issue from what I can see dealing with even my own elderly relatives is single glazed, draughty windows. Properly insulated windows didn't seem to feature in Ireland or Britain until the late 1980s. Many homes built before the 1980s seem to have absolutely no insulation at all too. It's mind-boggling to see homes with not even basic insulation in the attic.

Then throw in the fact that until the 1970s, central heating was an optional extra and many older people seem to still see it as a ridiculous luxury.

These homes cost a fortune to heat and drive people into unnecessary fuel poverty over winter too.

I would go a bit further too. Many older Irish and British people have some rather odd attitudes to some of these things. I know that I have had major arguments with elderly relatives to convince them to let family members pay to install central heating. It wasn't a case of pride or anything like that. They basically seemed to think that it was a totally unnecessary luxury and in one case, an elderly aunt, actually argued that 'the awl gas dries out the air'.

I've seen similar attitudes from older British people too. It's like they lived through hard times and seem to put themselves into dangerous situations like that.

There are also ridiculous attitudes from landlords and local authority landlords about heating / insulation standards.

The case of that woman freezing to death in an apartment was just nuts. It should not have been able to happen as the building regulations, even in the 1960s, should not have allowed the construction of a building that could get that cold and if the heating system was removed it should not have been occupied.

We urgently need a serious programme of insulation and heating upgrading / installation. It should have been done during the boom times but wasn't!

It would save lives, reduce CO2 outputs, and reduce health costs and save wasted resources being spent on fuel allowances that heat the sky above homes!

We have to get realistic about heating and building regulations. They're still treated as some kind of minor inconvenience.

4leto · 11-09-2011 10:49AM

booboo88 wrote: »

So screw the elderly, they've had their day?

No
Increase their pension, double it and install free gas central heating to everyone on a pension.

Would you do that.

We a re going to have the same debate as the cuts get more and more politically sensitive. Will you also say screw the sick when the health budget is slashed, and it will be slashed, there is no doubt about that.

I as I said would love to say don't cut anywhere when it effects the most vulnerable but I just don't think that is possible.

booboo88 · 11-09-2011 10:53AM

4leto wrote: »

No
Increase their pension, double it and install free gas central heating to everyone on a pension.

Would you do that.

We a re going to have the same debate as the cuts get more and more politically sensitive. Will you also say screw the sick when the health budget is slashed, and it will be slashed, there is no doubt about that.

I as I said would love to say don't cut anywhere when it effects the most vulnerable but I just don't think that is possible.

Thats exactly where they are cutting, the most vulnerable. never mind those pensioners who the private pension, they wont cut there, our their own bloody pockets, when this is all their mess.

headmaster · 11-09-2011 10:56AM

westendgirlie wrote: »

So you left home at 16? After that you never got your mum to wash your skid marked pants, make you dinner or give you some beer tokens cos you were skint?

Judging by your attitude to your parents you sound like you were a nightmare to bring up. So power to your mum for turning the tables and giving you a taste of the miserable life you gave her!

westendgirlie
Another one of the muppets that judge people without knowing anything. Yes, i left home at 16, worked abroad all my life, didn't come home for 50 years. I came back when my mother became ill, permanently a few years later and we are looking after her now for quite a while. Most Irish are not doing this, we are. No, my mum didn't do much for me, but i will for her. This does not take away from the fact that ole age pensioners are being paid double what should be given.

So you bright spark, stop jumping to conclusions that have no basis. Typical small town irish gossiper, i've met quite a lot of you. No change in all those years on that score

El Weirdo · 11-09-2011 10:57AM

Solair wrote: »

We urgently need a serious programme of insulation and heating upgrading / installation. It should have been done during the boom times but wasn't!

It would save lives, reduce CO2 outputs, and reduce health costs and save wasted resources being spent on fuel allowances that heat the sky above homes!

Not to mention a badly-needed employment injection.

4leto · 11-09-2011 11:03AM

Solair wrote: »

One of the biggest problems is the standard of building insulation / heating in Ireland and also in Britain. There are still many homes that have no central heating and almost no insulation and they tend to be occupied by elderly people.

There was something odd about British and Irish attitudes to cold weather in the past. It was like we pretended that we didn't actually have any.

In fact, Ireland's probably a bit better than England when it comes to central heating. It's amazing the amount of flats in England you'll find have nothing only electric heaters (and I'm not talking storage heating!)

A friend of mine lives in a flat in London and just before the harshest winter in about 30 years the local council decided that the double-glazing that had been fitted 20 years ago had to be removed as it was suddenly deemed to be a heritage building!

They now have damp problems and last winter had ice hanging from the ceiling over the windows!

There is something severely wrong with a bunch of regulations that would basically require people to freeze in order to ensure that the building looks sufficiently pretty.

To get back to Ireland - the biggest issue from what I can see dealing with even my own elderly relatives is single glazed, draughty windows. Properly insulated windows didn't seem to feature in Ireland or Britain until the late 1980s. Many homes built before the 1980s seem to have absolutely no insulation at all too. It's mind-boggling to see homes with not even basic insulation in the attic.

Then throw in the fact that until the 1970s, central heating was an optional extra and many older people seem to still see it as a ridiculous luxury.

These homes cost a fortune to heat and drive people into unnecessary fuel poverty over winter too.

I would go a bit further too. Many older Irish and British people have some rather odd attitudes to some of these things. I know that I have had major arguments with elderly relatives to convince them to let family members pay to install central heating. It wasn't a case of pride or anything like that. They basically seemed to think that it was a totally unnecessary luxury and in one case, an elderly aunt, actually argued that 'the awl gas dries out the air'.

I've seen similar attitudes from older British people too. It's like they lived through hard times and seem to put themselves into dangerous situations like that.

There are also ridiculous attitudes from landlords and local authority landlords about heating / insulation standards.

The case of that woman freezing to death in an apartment was just nuts. It should not have been able to happen as the building regulations, even in the 1960s, should not have allowed the construction of a building that could get that cold and if the heating system was removed it should not have been occupied.

We urgently need a serious programme of insulation and heating upgrading / installation. It should have been done during the boom times but wasn't!

It would save lives, reduce CO2 outputs, and reduce health costs and save wasted resources being spent on fuel allowances that heat the sky above homes!

We have to get realistic about heating and building regulations. They're still treated as some kind of minor inconvenience.

Great and interesting post, just to add to your comment, personally we are trying to get my elderly ill father's house renovated, the grants are generous,
but the problem is him.

He is offering up the same stupid excuses as "drying out the air", but we are starting to realise he just doesn't want the hassle of the building and disruption that will cause. I think that is a common theme with the elderly.

mawk · 11-09-2011 11:14AM

We could get a few of the pensioners that are living alone to move in together. A human radiates nearly 3.5kw between sensible and latent heat. Thats as much as a big electric heater. five of them in a room? Toasty

Solves loneliness too.

westendgirlie · 11-09-2011 11:19AM

headmaster wrote: »

westendgirlie
Another one of the muppets that judge people without knowing anything. Yes, i left home at 16, worked abroad all my life, didn't come home for 50 years. I came back when my mother became ill, permanently a few years later and we are looking after her now for quite a while. Most Irish are not doing this, we are. No, my mum didn't do much for me, but i will for her. This does not take away from the fact that ole age pensioners are being paid double what should be given.

So you bright spark, stop jumping to conclusions that have no basis. Typical small town irish gossiper, i've met quite a lot of you. No change in all those years on that score

Headmaster, first and foremost I put a question mark at the end of my sentences. That put the onus on you to explain your comments.
Secondly, your own statement on a public forum gave me right to reply. You will see that I typed the words "judging by your comments". I was responding to you, no one else. Kind of difficult to gossip about someone when they are the person you are talking to. Wouldn't you agree?
Thirdly, your initial post and the one quoted above contradict each other somewhat. You talk of pensioners benefitting from esb, phone and fuel perks. As said by another poster. These are not available if you are living with someone else. Unless, you mother has her own phone and electric supplies in your abode?

I don't want to take away from the fact that you say your mother is terminally ill. I understand how stressful a situation like that can be. You are entitled to carers allowance though and I would advise you to find out about it.

What your mother does with the remains of her money is none of my business. Whether she contributes to your household is between you and her.

ejmaztec · 11-09-2011 11:20AM

headmaster wrote: »

westendgirlie
Another one of the muppets that judge people without knowing anything. Yes, i left home at 16, worked abroad all my life, didn't come home for 50 years. I came back when my mother became ill, permanently a few years later and we are looking after her now for quite a while. Most Irish are not doing this, we are. No, my mum didn't do much for me, but i will for her. This does not take away from the fact that ole age pensioners are being paid double what should be given.

So you bright spark, stop jumping to conclusions that have no basis. Typical small town irish gossiper, i've met quite a lot of you. No change in all those years on that score

You seem to be jumping to conclusions in assuming that you're in the minority when it comes to Irish people looking after an old parent, which says a lot.

CorkMan · 11-09-2011 11:29AM

I know a man he has his OAP, pension from work and a pension from when he worked in the UK.

The man doesn't spend a haypenny.

Wibbs · 11-09-2011 12:09PM

ejmaztec wrote: »

You seem to be jumping to conclusions in assuming that you're in the minority when it comes to Irish people looking after an old parent, which says a lot.

Yep and while he was away apparently no one was paying tax and contributing to Irish society in all that time.

headmaster wrote:

As a matter of interest, the majority paid nothing to this state all their lives. Truth hurts, doesn't it fella?

So jumping to incorrrect and indeed oft daft conclusions all over the place. Apparently saying "truth hurts" makes that ok though. Then the crowning glory of

So you bright spark, stop jumping to conclusions that have no basis

Physician heal thyself.

ejmaztec · 11-09-2011 12:15PM

CorkMan wrote: »

I know a man he has his OAP, pension from work and a pension from when he worked in the UK.

The man doesn't spend a haypenny.

His mattress is probably so thick with cash, he needs a ladder to climb into bed.

woodoo · 11-09-2011 12:29PM

I don't believe this cut will leave the elderly cold. Pensions are not bad these days. And they get money of phone, electric etc. And still get the fuel allowance.

yourpics · 11-09-2011 12:32PM

4leto wrote: »

I don't know if you are up with current affairs but we are still running a massive deficit, the IMF/ECB are breathing down our necks and we are still out of the money markets.

They have to cut somewhere Education, Social welfare and health are our 3 biggest budgets, each of these are politically sensitive.

I am not a fan of Burton or Labour but people have to realise the very welfare state is under threat and is in very real danger of totally failing if we don't check our budget.

So if burton cannot cut here, I ask where can she cut?

I am afraid tackling social welfare fraud is nowhere near enough.

Create jobs = more income tax generated = smaller welfare bill

Lord TSC · 11-09-2011 12:33PM

wolfpawnat wrote: »

you are offered it after 18 months on the SW. They ask you to fill the form, it doesn't mean you will receive it. They take into account who you are living with etc

AH, ok. Thought it might have been a mass letter sent round.

Jesus, that's made me pretty depressed now >_< I don't think I'm on 18 months. I'd have said about 14. But still

woodoo · 11-09-2011 12:33PM

Wibbs wrote: »

The bit in bold is a biggie. The amount of people out there openly defrauding the welfare system is utterly ridiculous.

Absolutely. So many at it. As it is the penalties for getting caught are very low.

Perhaps toughen the sentence and maybe 5 years at reduced dole if caught. Jail would be the big one. If only for a month or 2.

El Siglo · 11-09-2011 12:38PM

To be honest I would rather be taxed and see the money go to helping people that need it; old people, young people, health and education. I can't see how cutting the fuel allowance will help in paying of the bailout, it really boggles the mind. Especially when you see articles like this... If they want to raise the pension age to 70, fair enough. However, if they want to make life a little bit more miserable for the elderly who are dependent on the state pension, then there's something wrong. I can't understand why anyone would want to begrudge an elderly person a few extra bob for some coal or gas? Just my 2 cents.

El Weirdo · 11-09-2011 12:44PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Yep and while he was away apparently no one was paying tax and contributing to Irish society in all that time.

Well, I can think of someone who doesn't sound like they were.

headmaster wrote: »

Yes, i left home at 16, worked abroad all my life, didn't come home for 50 years.

JONJO THE MISER · 11-09-2011 12:51PM

Cant believe she got to be a minister after her performance on Vincent Browne before the election, i would not trust her to run a milk run never mind a goverment department.

Joan Burton will drive up the number of old people suffering from cold this winter

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