Joan Burton will drive up the number of old people suffering from cold this winter

cyberhog · 11-09-2011 06:40AM #1

Some older people are going to be in for a tough winter this year thanks to Joan Burton's cuts to the winter fuel allowance.

A report on fuel poverty in Ireland by UCD stated:

Ireland and the UK have the highest rates of seasonal mortality in northern Europe.... There are also strong associations between inadequately heated homes and increased rates of morbidity; higher incidences of various cardiovascular and respiratory diseases have been associated with chronic cold exposure from within the home through living in fuel-poor conditions.

It is perhaps logical to surmise that the fuel allowance, while ineffective in reducing the overall level of fuel poverty in Ireland, does reduce the severity of experience of fuel poverty among the low-income households it covers.

http://www.ucd.ie/gpep/research/archivedworkingpapers/2002/02-05.pdf

The cuts approved by Government last July were regrettable but necessary to achieve savings due to our commitments to the IMF-EU-ECB troika, Minister for Social Protection Joan Burton had said.

Sounds like Joan is more interested in looking after the troika than being Minister for Social Protection

I wonder if Joan has ever had to sit in a freezing cold house in the middle of winter because you have to ration your home heating? Somehow I doubt she has ever experienced the kind of severe hardship that she will put some older people through this winter.

Richard Hillman · 11-09-2011 06:44AM

Do you have links to the ULA?

MagicSean · 11-09-2011 06:51AM

"perhaps logical to surmise" Not exactly what you'd call a definitive conclusion.

wolfpawnat · 11-09-2011 07:56AM

Burton couldn't care less about the need to protect children and the elderly, if she did she would be advocating these aids for their welfare!

Instead of trying to stomp out welfare fraud and looking after those in need, Labour (who in their manifesto stated the would not touch those on welfare) are now helping with a budget that miraculously is far more severe than it should have been since we are doing well with our deal with the EU/IMF that will cut child benefit, pensions, fuel allowance, careers allowance, disability, and Job seekers for people who cannot help the position they are in!

4leto · 11-09-2011 08:29AM

I don't know if you are up with current affairs but we are still running a massive deficit, the IMF/ECB are breathing down our necks and we are still out of the money markets.

They have to cut somewhere Education, Social welfare and health are our 3 biggest budgets, each of these are politically sensitive.

I am not a fan of Burton or Labour but people have to realise the very welfare state is under threat and is in very real danger of totally failing if we don't check our budget.

So if burton cannot cut here, I ask where can she cut?

I am afraid tackling social welfare fraud is nowhere near enough.

the keen edge · 11-09-2011 09:05AM

Old people, save on home heating costs this winter by dying in October.

krudler · 11-09-2011 09:09AM

if only we could find a way to harness the hot air that billows out of that wretched geebags mouth we could heat the entire country.

Temptamperu · 11-09-2011 09:12AM

I rekcon we should insulate our own houses with the old folks... saving us money and the government. I really should run for politics

4leto · 11-09-2011 09:14AM

Please delete

Temptamperu · 11-09-2011 09:15AM

I didnt post in here before did I

4leto · 11-09-2011 09:17AM

Temptamperu wrote: »

I didnt post in here before did I

Sorry I mistakenly thought you were the OP

I deleted the post:(

mossyc123 · 11-09-2011 09:25AM

A well thought out OP.

Just a quick question.

Does this fuel allowance apply across the board or is it a special allowance for those who need it?

My parents are OAP's and they certainly don't need a fuel allowance as they are (like many, many people of that age) much better off then the general population.

Wibbs · 11-09-2011 09:27AM

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Burton couldn't care less about the need to protect children and the elderly, if she did she would be advocating these aids for their welfare!

Instead of trying to stomp out welfare fraud and looking after those in need, Labour (who in their manifesto stated the would not touch those on welfare) are now helping with a budget that miraculously is far more severe than it should have been since we are doing well with our deal with the EU/IMF that will cut child benefit, pensions, fuel allowance, careers allowance, disability, and Job seekers for people who cannot help the position they are in!

The bit in bold is a biggie. The amount of people out there openly defrauding the welfare system is utterly ridiculous. I can think of numerous people who do so. One guy is so brazen I really don't know how he gets away with it. No you really wouldn't believe it if I detailed how brazen he is, but the details would be too recognisable so... Yet another guy I know who is on welfare and gets crap when he is honest about his needs or if he picks up some (rare)work and declares it. I know another self employed guy whose business is going under because he can't hope to compete in his industry when his competitors for jobs are on welfare for their basic income and pad that out with undeclared tax free work and cutting their quotes accordingly. Some job areas are a nightmare and open secret for it. Where are the inspectors in all this?

:mad:

Wibbs · 11-09-2011 09:30AM

mossyc123 wrote: »

A well thought out OP.

Just a quick question.

Does this fuel allowance apply across the board or is it a special allowance for those who need it?

My parents are OAP's and they certainly don't need a fuel allowance as they are (like many, many people of that age) much better off then the general population.

Agreed. It should be means tested which should free up a lot of funds. Of all the groups in need of welfare I'm loathe to go for the elderly. They've for the most part worked hard all their lives and built up this country and IMHO deserve some security in their last years, but they're not a homogenous group either. Some are as you say very well off financially and that's great, but they should not be treated the same as some widower on his own with just the basic old age pension for sustenance.

Lord TSC · 11-09-2011 09:31AM

While we're on the subject...

I got a letter yesterday. A form from the social welfare which I was told to fill out to see if I was applicable for the fuel benefits. I never asked for it, since I'm 24 and living at home and thus don't need it, but I presume every unemployed person in the country thus got the form. Even apart from the expense of sending out the letter to over 400,000, I'd imagine you're going to get every Tom, Dick and Harry applying and even some getting it without actually needing it, since all it takes to apply now is to fill out the form they sent out.

Surely if there's a worry about actually being able to afford to pay all of this benefit and there's talks of cuts, the last thing you should be doing is bringing it to the attention of every unemployed person. Surely it would be more cost effecient to, say, take out adds in papers or on TV telling people they may be entitled. I'd imagine you'd get less chancers that way....

wolfpawnat · 11-09-2011 09:37AM

you are offered it after 18 months on the SW. They ask you to fill the form, it doesn't mean you will receive it. They take into account who you are living with etc

mossyc123 · 11-09-2011 09:41AM

I know it sounds awfully simplistic but why not invest all that we can in home insulation schemes.

Cut down future energy costs and put some young construction workers back in proper employnment.

Temptamperu · 11-09-2011 09:46AM

mossyc123 wrote: »

I know it sounds awfully simplistic but why not invest all that we can in home insulation schemes.

Cut down future energy costs and put some young construction workers back in proper employnment.

Common sense? in this country?

ejmaztec · 11-09-2011 09:54AM

Wibbs wrote: »

The bit in bold is a biggie. The amount of people out there openly defrauding the welfare system is utterly ridiculous. I can think of numerous people who do so. One guy is so brazen I really don't know how he gets away with it. No you really wouldn't believe it if I detailed how brazen he is, but the details would be too recognisable so... Yet another guy I know who is on welfare and gets crap when he is honest about his needs or if he picks up some (rare)work and declares it. I know another self employed guy whose business is going under because he can't hope to compete in his industry when his competitors for jobs are on welfare for their basic income and pad that out with undeclared tax free work and cutting their quotes accordingly. Some job areas are a nightmare and open secret for it. Where are the inspectors in all this?:mad:

Some people are still getting multiple benefits, each different to the others, and are racking up phenomenal incomes when these are all added together. I dread to think how many people in the country are getting these.

Because there are so many people unemployed, I don't think that the welfare crowd have the man-power to do a proper job where investigations are concerned, and I assume that they're not taking on many new recruits thanks to the cut-backs in general. For most fraudsters it's going to be business as usual, unless more people start tipping off the authorities.

headmaster · 11-09-2011 10:02AM

It's ok for some people to share the pain, but not everyone. Well, why bloody not? Pensioners get aprox€1000.00 per month into their hands, free fuel, free medical card, free tv license, free travel, free esb, free telephone line and everything else as well. This is huge, as most have very, very, few overheads. My own parent stays with us, pays us nothing, complains about everything, god knows what she's putting aside. Time for a real reality check here, it's very easy for some people to tell us how difficult it is to live on the pension, how hard is it to live on the amounts shown? not too hard at all if we're being honest. Most people here tell us the old need more of everything. Well, if you all took in your old relatives, you would soon know how flipping easy they are having it, time for the bull**** to stop and the truth to be told. The pension should be reduced or taxed and pretty severely as well.

4leto · 11-09-2011 10:03AM

Wibbs wrote: »

The bit in bold is a biggie. The amount of people out there openly defrauding the welfare system is utterly ridiculous. I can think of numerous people who do so. One guy is so brazen I really don't know how he gets away with it. No you really wouldn't believe it if I detailed how brazen he is, but the details would be too recognisable so... Yet another guy I know who is on welfare and gets crap when he is honest about his needs or if he picks up some (rare)work and declares it. I know another self employed guy whose business is going under because he can't hope to compete in his industry when his competitors for jobs are on welfare for their basic income and pad that out with undeclared tax free work and cutting their quotes accordingly. Some job areas are a nightmare and open secret for it. Where are the inspectors in all this?:mad:

I know someone who got caught, a taximan drawing the dole and paying no taxes. In the case against him there were photographs, logs of his whereabouts for a week, it was as if they hired a detective. So that is the level of evidence you need for a conviction, you could hire the extra staff, but that would offset the savings.

A happy ending, no, he was told to pay it back in increments, then after about 6 months of repayments he pleaded illness and poverty and that put a stop to that.

He is genuinely ill now and can't work, karma some would say.

ejmaztec · 11-09-2011 10:04AM

headmaster wrote: »

It's ok for some people to share the pain, but not everyone. Well, why bloody not? Pensioners get aprox€1000.00 per month into their hands, free fuel, free medical card, free tv license, free travel, free esb, free telephone line and everything else as well. This is huge, as most have very, very, few overheads. My own parent stays with us, pays us nothing, complains about everything, god knows what she's putting aside. Time for a real reality check here, it's very easy for some people to tell us how difficult it is to live on the pension, how hard is it to live on the amounts shown? not too hard at all if we're being honest. Most people here tell us the old need more of everything. Well, if you all took in your old relatives, you would soon know how flipping easy they are having it, time for the bull**** to stop and the truth to be told. The pension should be reduced or taxed and pretty severely as well.

How much did you pay your parents when they brought you up?

booboo88 · 11-09-2011 10:08AM

4leto wrote: »

I don't know if you are up with current affairs but we are still running a massive deficit, the IMF/ECB are breathing down our necks and we are still out of the money markets.

They have to cut somewhere Education, Social welfare and health are our 3 biggest budgets, each of these are politically sensitive.

I am not a fan of Burton or Labour but people have to realise the very welfare state is under threat and is in very real danger of totally failing if we don't check our budget.

So if burton cannot cut here, I ask where can she cut?

I am afraid tackling social welfare fraud is nowhere near enough.

While I agree with what your saying, they're are people born in 1990 getting the free allowance aswell(i know this for a fact as i work in a leccy co)
so rather than taking anything else off the elderly, just remove it from those who havent paid a damn tax in their bloody life:rolleyes:

respect your elders, used to be a thing people lived by, now it seems people class the elderly as a burden which is a very sad state we're in.

El Weirdo · 11-09-2011 10:09AM

Wibbs wrote: »

...One guy is so brazen I really don't know how he gets away with it. No you really wouldn't believe it if I detailed how brazen he is, but the details would be too recognisable so...

Have you ever reported this person, Wibbs? If so, what was the outcome?

headmaster wrote: »

Pensioners get aprox€1000.00 per month into their hands, free fuel, free medical card, free tv license, free travel, free esb, free telephone line

Slightly disingenuous, tbf. They get a certain amount of free electricity credits, a fuel allowance and I believe that the line rental for the phone is free and they still have to pay for the calls.

headmaster · 11-09-2011 10:18AM

ejmaztec wrote: »

How much did you pay your parents when they brought you up?

Oh gosh, i thought they decided they wanted me, not the other way round. I'd have thought that their responsibility was to bring me up as i wasn't working from 0 yrs to 16. Ole age pensioners are being paid way too much in money and extras, time for them to pay up. As a matter of interest, the majority paid nothing to this state all their lives. Truth hurts, doesn't it fella? Now it's time for pay up and shut up. End.

4leto · 11-09-2011 10:19AM

booboo88 wrote: »

While I agree with what your saying, they're are people born in 1990 getting the free allowance aswell(i know this for a fact as i work in a leccy co)
so rather than taking anything else off the elderly, just remove it from those who havent paid a damn tax in their bloody life:rolleyes:

respect your elders, used to be a thing people lived by, now it seems people class the elderly as a burden which is a very sad state we're in.

I am just saying she has to cut somewhere and no matter where she cuts it is going to effect the weaker members of society.

Its the way it works at first you cut what is easy, but as time goes on you have to start cutting things which would have been impossible to cut, say 5 years ago.

The last thing they will cut (and they will have to eventually) is health, so expect to see more trollies in casualty, ETC, in the future.

People seem to think cutting social welfare fraud is the great painless panacea to solve all the problems of the budget deficit it is no where even nearly enough.

westendgirlie · 11-09-2011 10:24AM

headmaster wrote: »

Oh gosh, i thought they decided they wanted me, not the other way round. I'd have thought that their responsibility was to bring me up as i wasn't working from 0 yrs to 16. Ole age pensioners are being paid way too much in money and extras, time for them to pay up. As a matter of interest, the majority paid nothing to this state all their lives. Truth hurts, doesn't it fella? Now it's time for pay up and shut up. End.

So you left home at 16? After that you never got your mum to wash your skid marked pants, make you dinner or give you some beer tokens cos you were skint?

Judging by your attitude to your parents you sound like you were a nightmare to bring up. So power to your mum for turning the tables and giving you a taste of the miserable life you gave her!

Bens · 11-09-2011 10:25AM

Wait for the calls from politicians to "Check on your elderly neighbors during the cold weather as its particularly hard on the elderly", as soon as the weather gets cold.

Yet they are the ones who make sure that the elderly cant afford to have the heat on.

Leave the pensioners alone. They have gone through more hardship now and in the past than any of the rest of us will ever see. And their high taxes brought the rest of us up.

El Weirdo · 11-09-2011 10:26AM

headmaster wrote: »

Ole age pensioners are being paid way too much in money and extras, time for them to pay up. As a matter of interest, the majority paid nothing to this state all their lives. Truth hurts, doesn't it fella? Now it's time for pay up and shut up. End.

Well you sound truly delightful. I sincerely hope that you are not an actual headmaster because with that attitude, I really fear for our kids.

booboo88 · 11-09-2011 10:27AM

4leto wrote: »

I am just saying she has to cut somewhere and no matter where she cuts it is going to effect the weaker members of society.

Its the way it works at first you cut what is easy, but as time goes on you have to start cutting things which would have been impossible to cut, say 5 years ago.

The last thing they will cut (and they will have to eventually) is health, so expect to see more trollies in casualty, ETC, in the future.

People seem to think cutting social welfare fraud is the great painless panacea to solve all the problems of the budget deficit it is no where even nearly enough.

I know but if they weren't so quick to give it to anyone on social welfare, elderly people do need their heat etc, i can see this ending with a few people dying being honest, remember last year when the woman froze to death as the council never turn back on the heating?

we're in for a bloody harsh winter and i think its a disgrace that we're cutting the most vulnerable. by that i mean the elderly, not the young ones who were "means tested"

dark crystal · 11-09-2011 10:32AM

booboo88 wrote: »

I know but if they weren't so quick to give it to anyone on social welfare, elderly people do need their heat etc, i can see this ending with a few people dying being honest, remember last year when the woman froze to death as the council never turn back on the heating?

we're in for a bloody harsh winter and i think its a disgrace that we're cutting the most vulnerable. by that i mean the elderly, not the young ones who were "means tested"

In that case, it was a young mother who froze to death, not an elderly person.

I agree to an extent with the poster above, who stated that many pensioners have quite a lot of benefits, but not a lot of overheads. Why should they not be touched at all, in that case?

Joan Burton will drive up the number of old people suffering from cold this winter

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