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M6 - is the Galway Bypass necessary? (thread split)

12467

Comments

  • #152
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    I do want to see cyclists separated in Galway but that requires removing the traffic and repurposing roads which in turn requires a Bypass. Which bit of 'there is no space' do you idealogues not get?????


  • #153
    what_traffic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,002 ✭✭✭what_traffic


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    If I splatter a cyclist that I simply did not see my conscience is clear.

    Thats a very silly and stupid statement to make. Would not hold up in any Court on this Island, North or South.


  • #154
    what_traffic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,002 ✭✭✭what_traffic


    @ Iwannahurl re your dispute with MYOB. Would suggest that both of you just too agree that you both disagree on this point.


  • #155
    kiwipower
    Registered Users Posts: 802 ✭✭✭kiwipower


    Please excuse me addressing some of your points separately.
    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    I hadn't forgotten.

    The "Smarter Travel" plan, for a start.
    I just had a quick look at the Smarter Travel Plan. I can see a lot of positives to it.

    As long as they maintain the cycle/walkways so they are clean and secure I think them an excellent Idea.
    I like the ideas for improving the pedestrianisation of Galway City Centre, this is development. But there is the issue of what to do with the traffic presently using these routes? That traffic does not just disappear, even if we want it to, given other options SOME of this traffic will, but not all. For these ideas to work the traffic going through the city needs clear route to get around the city.
    As I see it many of these developments will not easy Galways congestion issues unless the GCOB is built. Again I would use foresight and attach a light rail (like Perth city has attached to its motorway system) to the GCOB.

    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    Removal of on-street parking on some city routes, along with a rigorous parking management strategy that includes 'performance pricing' to reduce parking-related congestion and put money back into making the city more conducive for shopping etc. Also a 'parking route' like they have in some European cities where cars are routed away from a central zone and there is sufficient parking on the route where people can leave their cars.

    Overhaul of the school transport system to make it much more user-friendly for city dwellers.

    30 kph zone in the city.

    A larger car-free zone in the city.

    Opening up of one-way streets to bicycles.

    I strongly agree about addressing on-street parking, especially in the Marys road type areas. I don't think it is fair or feasible to tell residence who have lived in these areas many years and who have no option but to park on the road to just push off. What I do think would work is the use of residences permits with restricted parking times. ie you can park here between 8pm and 8am Monday to Friday. 8am to 8pm Monday to Friday (+/-Saturday) these would become Road/cycleways and parking is not permitted. This would allow vehicles/cyclists and pedestrians safer easier movement.

    30km/hr zone - agree but needs enforcement. I would even consider the Australian example of these speed limits around schools.

    The school transport system needs a huge global rethink. It needs to consider working parents, after school-care, child safety. It needs to be local to where children live and enable safe bulk transport of children to there place of education &/or care.

    Along with your "parking route" idea, I would add low cost parking buildings +/-Park and Ride facilities on the outskirts of the city and more expensive parking buildings closer to the city centre.
    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    Personally I'd love to see congestion charging in the longer term. If feasible that could be used to fund more PT and P&R, I would imagine.

    They're just some ideas off the top of my head, in no particular order. The overall priority, as I would see it, is to first deal with all the excuses people have for preferring to chew their own arm off rather than leave their car. Having offered a large bunch of sweet carrots, then wield the economic stick. Or maybe you need to do both simultaneously.

    For the record, I do not support ANY members of the community who merely "like" using their car in the city, as per Galway Chamber of Commerce. Any traffic and transportation plan for Galway City must prioritise sustainability and the greater good, not the mere desires of car owners.

    As above I agree with a lot of what you say, but I also find I take issue with a lot of what you say.

    A congestion charge when there are limited other options is just another tax. The biggest and best way to "deal with all the excuses people have for preferring to chew their own arm off rather than leave their car." Is give them other options. Then use the carrot to make the option appeal.


    Unfortunately Iwanahurl my biggest issue with you in this thread is your approach to the arguments. I find your arguments are often hard to follow. You seem to often get caught in arguing for arguing's sake (or it appears sometimes to inflame.)

    Im still not clear on how you think your proposals or the Smarter Travel Plans proposals, will work without the GCOB?


  • #156
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    kiwipower wrote: »
    Im still not clear on how you think your proposals or the Smarter Travel Plans proposals, will work without the GCOB?
    No such thing as "smarter travel" in Galway. The phrase is but an oxymoron that means Dumb and Dumber Digging.

    Good post Kiwipower but I would point out that the GCOB will not bring a train between anywhere and anywhere else of importance. Light rail will have to go on freed up city roadspace.....eg instead of buslanes in the main.


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  • #157
    kiwipower
    Registered Users Posts: 802 ✭✭✭kiwipower


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    No such thing as "smarter travel" in Galway. The phrase is but an oxymoron that means Dumb and Dumber Digging.

    Good post Kiwipower but I would point out that the GCOB will not bring a train between anywhere and anywhere else of importance. Light rail will have to go on freed up city roadspace.....eg instead of buslanes in the main.

    Thanks Sponge Bob.
    I get what you mean about a GCOB Train not going from something to something. But it would allow for future developments and infrastructure. With Park and Ride and interconnecting local public transport it may facilitate people in avoiding the city centre when unnecessary. for example those living in Knocknacarra/Barna working in factories round Oranmore/Parkmore etc.


  • #158
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    It is a bit of an odd bridge Kiwipower, I'd consider an LRT east-west backbone on freed up city centre roadspace instead of those bloody buslanes.

    Problem is Hospital access, the ideal routes would wrap around the Hospital to my mind.


  • #159
    kiwipower
    Registered Users Posts: 802 ✭✭✭kiwipower


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    It is a bit of an odd bridge Kiwipower, I'd consider an LRT east-west backbone on freed up city centre roadspace instead of those bloody buslanes.

    Problem is Hospital access, the ideal routes would wrap around the Hospital to my mind.

    Your not wrong the Hospital is a problem! (I work there, travel from Limerick) There are many issues with the hospital, but related to this thread would be lack of parking, lack of public transport access, lack of easy travel between UHG & Merlin Park Campuses (hate to guess how many working hours a week are lost by staff travelling across the city.)

    It would make sense if an LRT was built on freed up city centre roads to either bring it either underground at the UGH with an access from the existing carpark, or from the street behind the nurses home, it could then service the University as well.


  • #160
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    I'd consider bringing it underground from Uni Road to Arch Motors ( through the hospital grounds) but only with a shallow single bore cut n cover tunnel mind :)

    Then I would immediately withdraw all the staff parking passes for NON shift workers ( meaning almost 100% of admin workers) if they live within 400m of the Light Rail. I'm a fecker like that Kiwipower :)

    I would ensure that staff parking passes do not work between 8am and 1pm either which is the peak period at the hospital. Last time I was in there they actually clamped a doctor for blocking ambulances down the back.

    Either get in early or feck off. :D

    But all of this after the bypass is built and roadspace becomes available.


  • #161
    kiwipower
    Registered Users Posts: 802 ✭✭✭kiwipower


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    I'd consider bringing it underground from Uni Road to Arch Motors ( through the hospital grounds) but only with a shallow single bore cut n cover tunnel mind :)

    Then I would immediately withdraw all the staff parking passes for NON shift workers ( meaning almost 100% of admin workers) if they live within 400m of the Light Rail. I'm a fecker like that Kiwipower :)

    I would ensure that staff parking passes do not work between 8am and 1pm either which is the peak period at the hospital. Last time I was in there they actually clamped a doctor for blocking ambulances down the back.

    Either get in early or feck off. :D

    But all of this after the bypass is built and roadspace becomes available.

    I so agree! Unfortunately I am classed as NON-hospital staff, even though i work for the HSE, so I dont have access to the staff carpark anyway! Have to bet the rush and get from limerick into work before 8am and pray one of the public non-tariffed parks are free. Either that or park in the public carpark and pay over €8 a day! :rolleyes:


    Would happily park in the park and ride in Oranmore and catch your LRT to work while I read my dirty romance thriller! ;) Just let me bring my bike on it so I can cycle out to Salthill for a lunchtime walk! Even better if the train from Limerick travelled faster, and didnt stop for breakfast in Ennis! Then I could read some medical textbooks as well! :p

    As for shift workers, other than those working a 12 or 14 hour day from 8 or 9am, the opening of the public carpark barriers at night, gives them a park straight outside the front doors of the hospital.

    Would still need Park&Rides outside the city for patients coming from Donegal, Tipperary and anywhere in between!


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  • #162
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,542 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    By the way, can you indicate whether you are an civil/roads engineer or some such? You seem to focus on these aspects of the GCOB (eg emphasising its design function as a bypass) whereas I am more concerned about local outcomes, local politics and local policies as well as broader issues such as orderly spatial planning and sustainability.

    I am neither (albeit I did get offered a civil engineering course in the CAO many years ago!), I am an extremely high usage road user. As a result, roads and road planning are a personal interest in to which I have read extensively.
    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    It is clear to me, and to high profile advocates of the bypass, that a key objective of the GCOB is to pave the way for massive new development in the city centre. Correct me if I am wrong, but you have either denied that is the case, dismissed it as irrelevant or ignored it because the bypass is "needed as a bypass", and "any traffic improvements for the city are nearly entirely unconnected to the bypass".

    I've dismissed it as I cannot see how the bypass is ever going to alleviate traffic in Galway Docks - as traffic there is not through traffic.
    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    Brian Walsh TD, a former board member of the Harbour Board (and possible current director of the Harbour Company -- I am still trying to confirm that) has stated categorically that the GCOB is needed to make the ambitious harbour development plan possible.

    Politics.

    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    MYOB, my impression is that you have good technical/engineering knowledge of strategic infrastructure like the GCOB.

    Looking just at the above two plans (they being by far the largest infrastructural developments proposed for the city, apart from the proposed bypass itself) can you give your opinion regarding (a) what relevance the Galway City Outer Bypass has to such massive development proposals, and (b) the likely traffic generation effects of the major developments.

    Both are going to be traffic generators, in an area that the bypass is not going to alleviate. I wouldn't be for them unless the planning authorities require serious transport planning constraints on them. As one of the proposers is CIE, a requirement to provide stations in Renmore, Oranmore etc with a commuter service might be one option (this would reduce traffic coming in from the East to Galway City Centre and *would* alleviate traffic in the Docks area)
    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    With regard to traffic reduction effects, cycle safety etc, it is self-evident that reducing motorised traffic through significant modal shift and extensive pro cycling/walking measures is not the same as reducing motorised traffic by constructing a bypass and then leaving the same number of cyclists/pedestrians to fend for themselves in an otherwise unchanged urban environment, especially with more traffic-generating development being proposed. If you believe otherwise, then so be it.

    Anto has already shown that the cycling proportion in Galway is higher than average so it unlikely any modal shift is going to be cycling more than bus/train..
    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    "You are anti-car and nothing else". Please don't say that to Betsy. She's sitting in the driveway outside and is very sensitive.
    [/QUOTE]

    You've never given an impression of anything but.


  • #163
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    kiwipower wrote: »
    I so agree! Unfortunately I am classed as NON-hospital staff, even though i work for the HSE, so I dont have access to the staff carpark anyway!
    P and R in Oranmore would be ideal if they ever do build an LRT of sorts. I reckon I will be long crumbledy into the finesht dusht by then. :rolleyes:

    The GCOB bridge would look like these ones from what I remember and will be curved very much like these are.

    800px-Sunnibergbruecke_nordwest.jpg

    800px-Abdoun_Bridge_%288%29.jpg


  • #164
    kiwipower
    Registered Users Posts: 802 ✭✭✭kiwipower


    MYOB wrote: »
    I've dismissed it as I cannot see how the bypass is ever going to alleviate traffic in Galway Docks - as traffic there is not through traffic.

    I would generally agree with you MYOB. But I do know of the Docks being used as through traffic. Some colleges travel from the Tuam road through Lough-atholia & the Docks and out to Salthill. I have even meet folk who travel from Oranmore down the Dublin Road out Lough Atholia & the Docks to reach the UHG.


  • #165
    kiwipower
    Registered Users Posts: 802 ✭✭✭kiwipower


    Hey Sponge bob.
    Thanks for posting them.

    Can we please have the top one for Galway?
    The one with the Beautiful scenery, lovely warm weather and green fields? :p

    Oh the bridges look lovely too!


  • #166
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,542 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    kiwipower wrote: »
    I would generally agree with you MYOB. But I do know of the Docks being used as through traffic. Some colleges travel from the Tuam road through Lough-atholia & the Docks and out to Salthill. I have even meet folk who travel from Oranmore down the Dublin Road out Lough Atholia & the Docks to reach the UHG.

    People are strange.

    Even when the 'ring road' is locked with traffic I can't see that the Docks is any faster? Its taken me 50 minutes to get from Hynes Yard carpark back to Renmore before let alone UHG to Oranmore!


  • #167
    kiwipower
    Registered Users Posts: 802 ✭✭✭kiwipower


    MYOB wrote: »
    People are strange.

    Even when the 'ring road' is locked with traffic I can't see that the Docks is any faster? Its taken me 50 minutes to get from Hynes Yard carpark back to Renmore before let alone UHG to Oranmore!

    I agree!
    But they do.
    I could never understand the ones coming from the Tuam road heading down to Moan-a-geshia then onto Lough Atholia. I ALWAYS avoid that route in heavy traffic! I guess they figure Bohemore & Quincentennial are worse.

    Please excuse my spelling on the Irish names.:rolleyes:


  • #168
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,542 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    I'll revise my comment to "There's no through traffic (except a few serially confused people that'll probably avoid the bypass too) going through the Docks".


  • #169
    kiwipower
    Registered Users Posts: 802 ✭✭✭kiwipower


    MYOB wrote: »
    I'll revise my comment to "There's no through traffic (except a few serially confused people that'll probably avoid the bypass too) going through the Docks".

    I approve of your amendment and second your amendment!


  • #170
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Which bit of 'there is no space' do you idealogues not get?????



    "No space" for whom?

    There is adequate space for people, but very little for private cars. Since the majority of traffic on Galway City's roads is composed of private cars, and many if not most of these are single occupant, motorists therefore take up a grossly disproportionate amount of the finite space available.

    This is wasteful, inefficient and unsustainable.

    Which part of this illustration do car dependants not get?



    person-capacity.gif


  • #171
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    MYOB wrote: »
    You've never given an impression of anything but.



    You've never inferred anything but.


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  • #172
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    MYOB wrote: »
    People are strange.

    Even when the 'ring road' is locked with traffic I can't see that the Docks is any faster? Its taken me 50 minutes to get from Hynes Yard carpark back to Renmore before let alone UHG to Oranmore!



    Indeed, especially those Galway motorists who spend as much time sitting in their cars as they would walking the same distance.

    Hynes Yard carpark (Dock Road?) to general Renmore area: approx 3.5 km or 40 minutes on foot. Ten to fifteen minutes by bike.

    I travelled along part of that link regularly once upon a time. The worst bit was the appalling road surface and drainage, as well as seeing lines of vehicles illegally obstructing the footpaths with impunity. The best part was whizzing by hundreds of vehicles stalled in traffic, all the way from the Monivea Road to Fr Griffin Road.

    I'm not so anti-car that I don't own one, fully taxed, insured and paid for (and full of petrol just now, after laying out a horrendous €80 to fill it).

    I am, however, very anti stupidity and pointless pursuits. And much of the "driving" in Galway City is stupid and pointless. Anyone who willingly submits themselves to unnecessary slow-moving torture of this kind every day needs their head examined, IMO.


  • #173
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    kiwipower wrote: »
    Oh the bridges look lovely too!



    Is that a 50 mph or 50 kph limit I see?

    If the latter, that would be a human rights violation against Irish drivers...


  • #174
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,542 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    Indeed, especially those Galway motorists who spend as much time sitting in their cars as they would walking the same distance.

    Hynes Yard carpark (Dock Road?) to general Renmore area: approx 3.5 km or 40 minutes on foot. Ten to fifteen minutes by bike.

    The contents of my van don't fit on a bike. Or a bus, for that matter.


  • #175
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,542 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    Is that a 50 mph or 50 kph limit I see?

    If the latter, that would be a human rights violation against Irish drivers...

    Most likely km/h. Its Jordan which I can't find solid info on the speed limits for but it appears they're lower across the board than here, and in km/h - but thats off blog postings not official info.


  • #176
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    MYOB wrote: »
    The contents of my van don't fit on a bike. Or a bus, for that matter.




    The key word in my post above is "unnecessary".

    For example, commercial traffic in Galway City is held up by unnecessary car use. Loading bays are often occupied by car users who have no necessity (or right) to park there.

    Then again, footpaths in Galway City are often occupied by van drivers who have no necessity (or right) to park on them.

    All part of Galway City's car-is-king culture.


  • #177
    tharlear
    Registered Users Posts: 130 ✭✭tharlear


    I'll revise my comment to "There's no through traffic (except a few serially confused people that'll probably avoid the bypass too) going through the Docks

    Last year when I was home in October , I left parents house with my brother to go to oranmore at 8.30am on a tuesday, father left at same time, we turn left down bishop o'Donnell road and over the Quin bridge, and took the 4 lane road all the way to destination, he went down taylors hill around by the docks and out through Renmore and
    turned right on to the coast road at castlegar pitch. He got there 15min before us. Same thing that evening on the return trip, only he beat us by 20 minutes. He always uses the dock road to get across galway.

    And before Iwannanurl gets upset with us for taking 2 cars, the travelling party included 3 people over the age of 80, 2 under 3 one pregnant adult, the brother and I . No way we were going to walk or cycle 12 to 14KM, even taking 2 buses would have requied us to walk 3KM, and as always it was pissing rain.


  • #178
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    tharlear wrote: »
    Last year when I was home in October , I left parents house with my brother to go to oranmore at 8.30am on a tuesday, father left at same time, we turn left down bishop o'Donnell road and over the Quin bridge, and took the 4 lane road all the way to destination, he went down taylors hill around by the docks and out through Renmore and
    turned right on to the coast road at castlegar pitch. He got there 15min before us. Same thing that evening on the return trip, only he beat us by 20 minutes. He always uses the dock road to get across galway.


    Which means he goes through the signalised Moaning-ageisha junction right?

    Might he therefore be one of those Galway motorists who is not whining about how the lights are sooooooo totally bad?

    By the way, i've just remembered that I favoured that route for my 24 km total daily commute, despite unpleasantries like the cycle-hostile one-way system on Merchant's Road and the water pooling on Lough Atalia Road, because I'd rather rub chili in my eyes than cycle on those stupid so-called "cycle paths" over the Quincentenary Bridge.


  • #179
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,542 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    Might he therefore be one of those Galway motorists who is not whining about how the lights are sooooooo totally bad?

    The moaning generally stopped once the lights were finally properly programmed to make it only as bad as it had been when it was a roundabout. The first few weeks I suspect I'd have been quicker hiking with a military pack of all my kit...


  • #180
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    MYOB wrote: »
    The moaning generally stopped once the lights were finally properly programmed to make it only as bad as it had been when it was a roundabout. The first few weeks I suspect I'd have been quicker hiking with a military pack of all my kit...



    Date, approximate or exact?


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  • #181
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,542 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    Date, approximate or exact?

    Seeing as I can't remember when the roundabout was removed other than it being "after 2008" I can't remember how long it took GCC to fix the light programming. Add "few weeks" to whatever the date was for the approximate date.

    There's still improvements they could make to timing - and layout, such as making the right turn lane from Wellpark longer


  • #182
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    Jeez, that long?

    And they're still moaning.

    Galway Chamber whipping up more opposition to removal of other roundabouts, and in doing so still whining about Moneenageisha. See Galway City forum.


  • #183
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,542 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    Jeez, that long?

    And they're still moaning.

    Galway Chamber whipping up more opposition to removal of other roundabouts, and in doing so still whining about Moneenageisha. See Galway City forum.

    I'll look in a bit. At least one of the roundabouts that was mentioned last time I saw a list was far too big to be effectively replaced by a crossroads but I think the freesheet with the list may have got its wires crossed and it was only going to be signalised

    The Moneenageisha roundabout was far, far too small to be any more effective than a crossroads for the traffic figures using it.


  • #184
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    MYOB wrote: »
    I've dismissed it as I cannot see how the bypass is ever going to alleviate traffic in Galway Docks - as traffic there is not through traffic.

    Politics.

    Both are going to be traffic generators, in an area that the bypass is not going to alleviate. I wouldn't be for them unless the planning authorities require serious transport planning constraints on them. As one of the proposers is CIE, a requirement to provide stations in Renmore, Oranmore etc with a commuter service might be one option (this would reduce traffic coming in from the East to Galway City Centre and *would* alleviate traffic in the Docks area)


    You dismiss as mere "politics" the statements of those who claim that a major purpose of the GCOB is to alleviate city centre traffic (mainly in the City Centre/Docks area) in order to make space for new traffic, which you accept will be generated by the massive redevelopments proposed for that side of the city.

    You also claim that traffic in the Docks area is not "through traffic", though a couple of recent posts suggest that at least some motorists coming from the West are using that route as an alternative to the N6, which in turn suggests a degree of East to West through traffic also.

    This got me wondering, and I did a very brief check back to the beginning of this thread to see what posters might be saying about the need for the GCOB. Here's a quote from 2008:
    87% of Quincentennial bridge traffic is commuter traffic (Bord Pleanala report)
    That presumably means commuter traffic from Knocknacarra and the now built-up "rural" areas beyond.

    You've also stated that the GCOB is needed "as a bypass" and that "any traffic improvements for the city are nearly entirely unconnected to the bypass".

    You have read extensively on road engineering and planning matters, eg junction capacities, traffic flows etc. I haven't; my interests are more on the socio-political side.

    I now find myself wondering (a) who is the bypass intended for, (b) who is actually going to use the bypass, (c) what effect will the bypass have on traffic in different city locations, especially in the Docks/Lough Atalia area, which seems to at least partly function as an alternative commuter route to the QB, and (d) will there be any general relieving effect on city centre traffic?

    The business associations are claiming that city centre trade is being affected by the lack of a bypass.

    Galway is a small city. It is not inconceivable that different areas are being used as through routes. Likewise, if traffic in the city generally will be alleviated by the GCOB, and this paves the way for massive redevelopment in the centre (Ceannt Station and the Docks) then is it not likely that there will be a general resurgence of traffic around town as motorists adapt to the newly generated traffic. Would that not bring us back to square one in due course?


  • #185
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,542 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    a: Those who need to get past Galway City. Knocknacarra is far enough out that people for there would count for this

    b: see a:

    c: Minimal. There is obviously *some* traffic using the Docks that might be bypass suitable but by and large the traffic through there is terminating in the city.

    d: see c:


  • #186
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    Presumably An Board Pleanala is not (overtly) a political entity in terms of its regulatory functions.

    Here is a one-paragraph summary of the rationale for the GCOB, taken from the Inspector's report:
    The need for the scheme is stated to be derived from government policy and development plans and to cater for the increasing volumes of traffic on the existing highway network within Galway City and its environs.

    It is explained that the existing road system in and around Galway City has insufficient capacity to deal with traffic wishing to use it, in particular at peak times.

    With traffic growth it is stated that the provision of the Galway City Outer Bypass would increase road and junction capacity on the highway network and it is noted that the need for a bypass is included in the National Road Needs Study and the National Development Plan, as well as being an objective of the Galway City and County Development Plans. The proposed N6 major inter-urban road is currently proposed to terminate at a roundabout on the extreme eastern edge of Galway City.

    Without the proposed bypass the traffic to and from the centre and northern and western environs of Galway City would have to use the existing congested inner city road network. This network developed over a period of time and does not meet current design standards.

    With the design of the bypass to current standards there would be a transfer of traffic from the existing road network to the bypass with a consequent reduction in the number of road traffic accidents.
    Emphasis added.

    @MYOB: you have insisted that "any traffic improvements for the city are nearly entirely unconnected to the bypass".

    My contention is that the GCOB is strongly desired for two main over-arching purposes: (1) a generalised reduction of traffic congestion across the entire city network in order to free up road space, and (2) that road space is needed for the increased traffic that will inevitably result from further 'organic' growth in city traffic generally but especially from massive planned deveopments such as Ceannt Station and the Harbour.

    I would further contend that the official rationale for the GCOB supports my position and contradicts your repeated position that "any traffic improvements for the city are nearly entirely unconnected to the bypass".

    For the record, I support objective 1 above, but I have serious concerns about objective 2.


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  • #187
    kiwipower
    Registered Users Posts: 802 ✭✭✭kiwipower


    Iwannahurl - Seriously?
    I give you this:
    kiwipower wrote: »
    Please excuse me addressing some of your points separately.


    I just had a quick look at the Smarter Travel Plan. I can see a lot of positives to it.

    As long as they maintain the cycle/walkways so they are clean and secure I think them an excellent Idea.
    I like the ideas for improving the pedestrianisation of Galway City Centre, this is development. But there is the issue of what to do with the traffic presently using these routes? That traffic does not just disappear, even if we want it to, given other options SOME of this traffic will, but not all. For these ideas to work the traffic going through the city needs clear route to get around the city.
    As I see it many of these developments will not easy Galways congestion issues unless the GCOB is built. Again I would use foresight and attach a light rail (like Perth city has attached to its motorway system) to the GCOB.




    I strongly agree about addressing on-street parking, especially in the Marys road type areas. I don't think it is fair or feasible to tell residence who have lived in these areas many years and who have no option but to park on the road to just push off. What I do think would work is the use of residences permits with restricted parking times. ie you can park here between 8pm and 8am Monday to Friday. 8am to 8pm Monday to Friday (+/-Saturday) these would become Road/cycleways and parking is not permitted. This would allow vehicles/cyclists and pedestrians safer easier movement.

    30km/hr zone - agree but needs enforcement. I would even consider the Australian example of these speed limits around schools.

    The school transport system needs a huge global rethink. It needs to consider working parents, after school-care, child safety. It needs to be local to where children live and enable safe bulk transport of children to there place of education &/or care.

    Along with your "parking route" idea, I would add low cost parking buildings +/-Park and Ride facilities on the outskirts of the city and more expensive parking buildings closer to the city centre.



    As above I agree with a lot of what you say, but I also find I take issue with a lot of what you say.

    A congestion charge when there are limited other options is just another tax. The biggest and best way to "deal with all the excuses people have for preferring to chew their own arm off rather than leave their car." Is give them other options. Then use the carrot to make the option appeal.


    Unfortunately Iwanahurl my biggest issue with you in this thread is your approach to the arguments. I find your arguments are often hard to follow. You seem to often get caught in arguing for arguing's sake (or it appears sometimes to inflame.)

    Im still not clear on how you think your proposals or the Smarter Travel Plans proposals, will work without the GCOB?

    And you pick up on this one little line that is tongue in cheek to Sponge Bob following on from a sensible discussion, on improving both road and public transport options around Galway. Taking it Way out of context!
    kiwipower wrote: »
    Hey Sponge bob.
    Thanks for posting them.

    Can we please have the top one for Galway?
    The one with the Beautiful scenery, lovely warm weather and green fields? :p

    Oh the bridges look lovely too!

    And you reply:
    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    Is that a 50 mph or 50 kph limit I see?

    If the latter, that would be a human rights violation against Irish drivers...


    I mean seriously are you trying to prove my conjecture? That:
    You seem to often get caught in arguing for arguing's sake

    But you have failed to answer my below question. When you improve the Galway City Centre area, with pedestrianisation etc Where do you expect all this traffic to go if they do not have another option (GCOB) to get across the Corrib and around the city?
    But there is the issue of what to do with the traffic presently using these routes?

    Your essential argument against the development of a GCOB appears to be related to concern around the development of Galway City Centre through plans to improve the Docks and Ceannt Station Amenities for the citizens of and visitors to Galway City causing more road traffic. Where is your Proof that this will occur?

    Surly even you can see that through a combined approach of removing cross corrib traffic, improving the city centre with better public transport (ie the station, Cycle, walkways, bus lanes, Light Urban Rail) you will be negating a large amount of your conspiracy theory based traffic generation.

    If you really want to get rid of inner city short travel distance traffic you can do to things.
    1. Curtail parking options in the city centre to a near minimum.
    2. Price the few available parking options, at such a high rate to make parking enviable.
    Both of which IMO Galway City Council and there notorious clamper's have been doing reasonably effectively over the last 8years!


  • #188
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,542 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    The western section of the existing 'ring road' is part of the "inner city road network" - seeing as its a few minutes stroll from Shop Street.

    The bypass is needed irrespective of any future development and I cannot see how the bypass will possibly reduce traffic in the city centre to any level that could be used to justify either or both of the proposed major redevelopments.

    A significant modal shift to buses/trains/cycling would, however...


  • #189
    galwaycyclist
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,912 ✭✭✭galwaycyclist


    kiwipower wrote: »

    If you really want to get rid of inner city short travel distance traffic you can do to things.
    1. Curtail parking options in the city centre to a near minimum.
    2. Price the few available parking options, at such a high rate to make parking enviable.
    s!

    I endorse this view. It is the apparent absence of proposals to restrict car parking that undermines the claim that the GCOB is intended to remove traffic and reinforces the view that the intent is to provide for traffic growth.

    Also if Galway was a market/university town in the Netherlands, a Delft or a Groningen, there would be a system of traffic cells put in place. In Delft they closed key bridges to private motor traffic but left them open to other transport modes. Galway could do the same and the cycling campaign proposed similar measures in a submission on the Smarter Travel bids.

    Private car traffic is limited to radial routes and the ring road. This would also help drive the development of local services in the Western and Eastern peripheries.

    The absence of similar proposals for Galway suggests a desire to provide for traffic growth at the direct expense of the other functions a town or city must provide.


  • #190
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,542 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    galwaycyclist wrote: »
    I endorse this view. It is the apparent absence of proposals to restrict car parking that undermines the claim that the GCOB is intended to remove traffic and reinforces the view that the intent is to provide for traffic growth.

    Car parking = the remit of Galway City Council

    GCOB = the remit of Galway County Council and the NRA.

    Stop trying to look for connections that don't exist to push your viewpoint.


  • #191
    galwaycyclist
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,912 ✭✭✭galwaycyclist


    MYOB wrote: »
    Car parking = the remit of Galway City Council

    GCOB = the remit of Galway County Council and the NRA.

    Stop trying to look for connections that don't exist to push your viewpoint.

    In case you weren't aware I can assure you that the City Council roads department are ardent supporters of the GCOB.


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  • #192
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,542 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    galwaycyclist wrote: »
    In case you weren't aware I can assure you that the City Council roads department are ardent supporters of the GCOB.

    Relevance? They're not in any way involved in designing it.


  • #193
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    MYOB wrote: »
    Relevance? They're not in any way involved in designing it.

    They do support it, no question about it.


  • #194
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,542 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    They do support it, no question about it.

    Still doesn't connect for a conspiracy on the part of the designers to have unrestricted parking in the city...


  • #195
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    You cannot have unrestricted parking in the City, it is already nuts in the Uni and Hospital area and the centre has tried to price them out for years, charging €2.50 an hour. This started in the 1970s and developed as Galway grew.

    Galwaycyclist is right about traffic cell management, once they have no excuse to be in the centre or sqr/headford road area any longer that is. They should also look at that Cycle grant where your employer applies on your behalf an allow employers to contract into annual Bus Passes at around €500 a year (BIK tax and Vat free) where the employee must ordinarily transit the cells between home and work irrespective of mode of transport.

    They never did much with the €200???? annual tax on employee parking spots either. Most employers do not assign spaces.


  • #196
    galwaycyclist
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,912 ✭✭✭galwaycyclist


    MYOB wrote: »
    Still doesn't connect for a conspiracy on the part of the designers to have unrestricted parking in the city...

    How is the design relevant? The question at hand is the purpose and likely consequences of its construction. Raising the issue of design invites the accusation that you are attempting to evade discussion of the points being raised.


  • #197
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,542 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    galwaycyclist wrote: »
    How is the design relevant? The question at hand is the purpose and likely consequences of its construction. Raising the issue of design invites the accusation that you are attempting to evade discussion of the points being raised.

    The design is a result of its intended purpose. This is all the county council and the NRAs remit and not the city council.

    You are attempting to generate a conspiracy theory with which to oppose the bypass. I've dealt with all the points in great detail.

    You can accuse all you want but its empty accusations when you're spinning ridiculous theories.


  • #198
    galwaycyclist
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,912 ✭✭✭galwaycyclist


    MYOB wrote: »
    The design is a result of its intended purpose. This is all the county council and the NRAs remit and not the city council.

    You are attempting to generate a conspiracy theory with which to oppose the bypass. I've dealt with all the points in great detail.

    You can accuse all you want but its empty accusations when you're spinning ridiculous theories.

    Where is the conspiracy? Everything that is being done points to an intent to cater for.traffic growth in the city at the expense of all other considerations.

    This is what you need to get your head around. There is no need for anyone who is skeptical of the purpose of the bypass to invent any conspiracies.

    Much of the available evidence, including arguments advanced by you, points to the bypass being very bad for the city.


  • #199
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,542 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    galwaycyclist wrote: »
    Where is the conspiracy? Everything that is being done points to an intent to cater for.traffic growth in the city at the expense of all other considerations.

    A bypass which is going to relief traffic on an existing shambolic "relief road" is not going to have an appreciable impact on traffic in the city itself and, ergo, cannot have any intent to cater for traffic growth there.
    galwaycyclist wrote: »
    This is what you need to get your head around. There is no need for anyone who is skeptical of the purpose of the bypass to invent any conspiracies.

    There's nothing for me to get my head around. You, however, need to know what you're arguing against. Claiming "skepticism" when its down right opposition in an attempt to pretend you're not just downright against something is pathetic - this applies to IWH too.

    And there most certainly is a need for opponents of the bypass to invent reasons to be against it, because the benefits of the bypass are so massive as to make it effectively unopposable except by cranks and vested interests.
    galwaycyclist wrote: »
    Much of the available evidence, including arguments advanced by you, points to the bypass being very bad for the city.

    Poor attempt at comedy.


  • #200
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    galwaycyclist wrote: »
    Where is the conspiracy? Everything that is being done points to an intent to cater for.traffic growth in the city at the expense of all other considerations.
    Which is why they are not expanding road capacity is it ?? .....except where they add opportunistic buslanes of course and the odd smidge of cycle path.
    Much of the available evidence, including arguments advanced by you, points to the bypass being very bad for the city.

    Eh ???? Have you any idea how many people utterly loathe going anywhere near Galway unless they absolutely have to nowadays. It ain't the parking but the lunatic traffic.

    The Bypass will take much of it out, not all of it but much of it.


  • #201
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    kiwipower wrote: »
    But you have failed to answer my below question. When you improve the Galway City Centre area, with pedestrianisation etc Where do you expect all this traffic to go if they do not have another option (GCOB) to get across the Corrib and around the city?

    Your essential argument against the development of a GCOB appears to be related to concern around the development of Galway City Centre through plans to improve the Docks and Ceannt Station Amenities for the citizens of and visitors to Galway City causing more road traffic. Where is your Proof that this will occur?

    Surly even you can see that through a combined approach of removing cross corrib traffic, improving the city centre with better public transport (ie the station, Cycle, walkways, bus lanes, Light Urban Rail) you will be negating a large amount of your conspiracy theory based traffic generation.


    If you really want to get rid of inner city short travel distance traffic you can do to things.
    1. Curtail parking options in the city centre to a near minimum.
    2. Price the few available parking options, at such a high rate to make parking enviable.
    Both of which IMO Galway City Council and there notorious clamper's have been doing reasonably effectively over the last 8years!



    1. I would have thanked your earlier post, except for your claims that my arguments "are often hard to follow" and that I am often "arguing for arguing's sake". I may be sarky sometimes (usually responding to others who engage in similar repartee) but when I address key issues I usually try to support my position with reference to evidence. If you find those evidence-based arguments hard to follow then what can I say? Also, I assure you that my primary motivation is genuine concern and affection for the city of Galway, which in my view has been seriously damaged over a period of decades by questionable and unsustainable policies in relation to "planning" and transport. I am not wrong about that. It is self evident, or else traffic congestion would not be the #1 complaint about the city.

    2. You describe my position as an "argument against the development of a GCOB". This ignores the fact that I have already referred several times to my position as one of scepticism. Of course this has also been dismissed, with the facile jibe that I am anti-car (which is rather unfair to my car).

    3. You're asking for proof that a particular outcome is going to occur in the future? Now there's a line of argument that I find hard to follow or respond to. On the other hand, if you are seeking evidence that "planning" in Galway City and County and in Ireland generally is less than adequate, look around you. Are you aware that the Celtic Casino has just imploded and that we have been left with a legacy of disastrous developer-led "planning" virtually everywhere in the country, much of which has locked large sections of the population into long-term car dependence? The policies and politics that have brought this country to ruin haven't really gone away, you know, they've just been eclipsed by the worst financial crisis in the history of the state. Maybe this economic disaster has been a watershed, maybe not.

    4. How can my contention that the Ceannt Station and Harbour Redevelopment plans will generate traffic be classed as some sort of conspiracy theory? The plans indicate clearly a level of commercial activity that couldn't but generate traffic. Furthermore, supporters of the proposals themselves, such as TDs Brian Walsh and Noel Grealish, have stated as much on the record.

    5. Galway City Council's parking control is far from being effective and efficient. They haven't had clampers for about two years now, IIRC, and when the clampers were there the cost to the Council was €2 million annually.

    6. "A combined approach of removing cross corrib traffic, improving the city centre with better public transport (ie the station, Cycle, walkways, bus lanes, Light Urban Rail)" sounds great. Unfortunately, there is no bypass. A bypass is several years away. I'll pull a figure out of the air and suggest that we won't have a bypass for the next five years. What do we do in the meantime? Let's say we all agree with each other that the GCOB is a splendid idea and is bound to lead to all the other traffic and transportation improvements you mention. What does that do for us now? Do we sit in our cars for the next five years or more and dream about a rosy post-GCOB future? No thanks. Give me the thumb screws rather than have me sit in traffic hour after hour day after day. This is what boggles my mind about so many people -- I mean many motorists -- who whine about the traffic. If you could conceivably commute by another means then do so. But if you're just going to sit in your car no matter what then stop the bloody whining please! (I feel like I'm talking to my 4-year-old now...)


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