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M6 - is the Galway Bypass necessary? (thread split)

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Comments

  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 Sponge Bob


    I do want to see cyclists separated in Galway but that requires removing the traffic and repurposing roads which in turn requires a Bypass. Which bit of 'there is no space' do you idealogues not get?????


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,975 ✭✭✭ what_traffic


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    If I splatter a cyclist that I simply did not see my conscience is clear.

    Thats a very silly and stupid statement to make. Would not hold up in any Court on this Island, North or South.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,975 ✭✭✭ what_traffic


    @ Iwannahurl re your dispute with MYOB. Would suggest that both of you just too agree that you both disagree on this point.


  • Registered Users Posts: 802 kiwipower


    Please excuse me addressing some of your points separately.
    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    I hadn't forgotten.

    The "Smarter Travel" plan, for a start.
    I just had a quick look at the Smarter Travel Plan. I can see a lot of positives to it.

    As long as they maintain the cycle/walkways so they are clean and secure I think them an excellent Idea.
    I like the ideas for improving the pedestrianisation of Galway City Centre, this is development. But there is the issue of what to do with the traffic presently using these routes? That traffic does not just disappear, even if we want it to, given other options SOME of this traffic will, but not all. For these ideas to work the traffic going through the city needs clear route to get around the city.
    As I see it many of these developments will not easy Galways congestion issues unless the GCOB is built. Again I would use foresight and attach a light rail (like Perth city has attached to its motorway system) to the GCOB.

    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    Removal of on-street parking on some city routes, along with a rigorous parking management strategy that includes 'performance pricing' to reduce parking-related congestion and put money back into making the city more conducive for shopping etc. Also a 'parking route' like they have in some European cities where cars are routed away from a central zone and there is sufficient parking on the route where people can leave their cars.

    Overhaul of the school transport system to make it much more user-friendly for city dwellers.

    30 kph zone in the city.

    A larger car-free zone in the city.

    Opening up of one-way streets to bicycles.

    I strongly agree about addressing on-street parking, especially in the Marys road type areas. I don't think it is fair or feasible to tell residence who have lived in these areas many years and who have no option but to park on the road to just push off. What I do think would work is the use of residences permits with restricted parking times. ie you can park here between 8pm and 8am Monday to Friday. 8am to 8pm Monday to Friday (+/-Saturday) these would become Road/cycleways and parking is not permitted. This would allow vehicles/cyclists and pedestrians safer easier movement.

    30km/hr zone - agree but needs enforcement. I would even consider the Australian example of these speed limits around schools.

    The school transport system needs a huge global rethink. It needs to consider working parents, after school-care, child safety. It needs to be local to where children live and enable safe bulk transport of children to there place of education &/or care.

    Along with your "parking route" idea, I would add low cost parking buildings +/-Park and Ride facilities on the outskirts of the city and more expensive parking buildings closer to the city centre.
    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    Personally I'd love to see congestion charging in the longer term. If feasible that could be used to fund more PT and P&R, I would imagine.

    They're just some ideas off the top of my head, in no particular order. The overall priority, as I would see it, is to first deal with all the excuses people have for preferring to chew their own arm off rather than leave their car. Having offered a large bunch of sweet carrots, then wield the economic stick. Or maybe you need to do both simultaneously.

    For the record, I do not support ANY members of the community who merely "like" using their car in the city, as per Galway Chamber of Commerce. Any traffic and transportation plan for Galway City must prioritise sustainability and the greater good, not the mere desires of car owners.

    As above I agree with a lot of what you say, but I also find I take issue with a lot of what you say.

    A congestion charge when there are limited other options is just another tax. The biggest and best way to "deal with all the excuses people have for preferring to chew their own arm off rather than leave their car." Is give them other options. Then use the carrot to make the option appeal.


    Unfortunately Iwanahurl my biggest issue with you in this thread is your approach to the arguments. I find your arguments are often hard to follow. You seem to often get caught in arguing for arguing's sake (or it appears sometimes to inflame.)

    Im still not clear on how you think your proposals or the Smarter Travel Plans proposals, will work without the GCOB?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 Sponge Bob


    kiwipower wrote: »
    Im still not clear on how you think your proposals or the Smarter Travel Plans proposals, will work without the GCOB?
    No such thing as "smarter travel" in Galway. The phrase is but an oxymoron that means Dumb and Dumber Digging.

    Good post Kiwipower but I would point out that the GCOB will not bring a train between anywhere and anywhere else of importance. Light rail will have to go on freed up city roadspace.....eg instead of buslanes in the main.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 802 kiwipower


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    No such thing as "smarter travel" in Galway. The phrase is but an oxymoron that means Dumb and Dumber Digging.

    Good post Kiwipower but I would point out that the GCOB will not bring a train between anywhere and anywhere else of importance. Light rail will have to go on freed up city roadspace.....eg instead of buslanes in the main.

    Thanks Sponge Bob.
    I get what you mean about a GCOB Train not going from something to something. But it would allow for future developments and infrastructure. With Park and Ride and interconnecting local public transport it may facilitate people in avoiding the city centre when unnecessary. for example those living in Knocknacarra/Barna working in factories round Oranmore/Parkmore etc.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 Sponge Bob


    It is a bit of an odd bridge Kiwipower, I'd consider an LRT east-west backbone on freed up city centre roadspace instead of those bloody buslanes.

    Problem is Hospital access, the ideal routes would wrap around the Hospital to my mind.


  • Registered Users Posts: 802 kiwipower


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    It is a bit of an odd bridge Kiwipower, I'd consider an LRT east-west backbone on freed up city centre roadspace instead of those bloody buslanes.

    Problem is Hospital access, the ideal routes would wrap around the Hospital to my mind.

    Your not wrong the Hospital is a problem! (I work there, travel from Limerick) There are many issues with the hospital, but related to this thread would be lack of parking, lack of public transport access, lack of easy travel between UHG & Merlin Park Campuses (hate to guess how many working hours a week are lost by staff travelling across the city.)

    It would make sense if an LRT was built on freed up city centre roads to either bring it either underground at the UGH with an access from the existing carpark, or from the street behind the nurses home, it could then service the University as well.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 Sponge Bob


    I'd consider bringing it underground from Uni Road to Arch Motors ( through the hospital grounds) but only with a shallow single bore cut n cover tunnel mind :)

    Then I would immediately withdraw all the staff parking passes for NON shift workers ( meaning almost 100% of admin workers) if they live within 400m of the Light Rail. I'm a fecker like that Kiwipower :)

    I would ensure that staff parking passes do not work between 8am and 1pm either which is the peak period at the hospital. Last time I was in there they actually clamped a doctor for blocking ambulances down the back.

    Either get in early or feck off. :D

    But all of this after the bypass is built and roadspace becomes available.


  • Registered Users Posts: 802 kiwipower


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    I'd consider bringing it underground from Uni Road to Arch Motors ( through the hospital grounds) but only with a shallow single bore cut n cover tunnel mind :)

    Then I would immediately withdraw all the staff parking passes for NON shift workers ( meaning almost 100% of admin workers) if they live within 400m of the Light Rail. I'm a fecker like that Kiwipower :)

    I would ensure that staff parking passes do not work between 8am and 1pm either which is the peak period at the hospital. Last time I was in there they actually clamped a doctor for blocking ambulances down the back.

    Either get in early or feck off. :D

    But all of this after the bypass is built and roadspace becomes available.

    I so agree! Unfortunately I am classed as NON-hospital staff, even though i work for the HSE, so I dont have access to the staff carpark anyway! Have to bet the rush and get from limerick into work before 8am and pray one of the public non-tariffed parks are free. Either that or park in the public carpark and pay over €8 a day! :rolleyes:


    Would happily park in the park and ride in Oranmore and catch your LRT to work while I read my dirty romance thriller! ;) Just let me bring my bike on it so I can cycle out to Salthill for a lunchtime walk! Even better if the train from Limerick travelled faster, and didnt stop for breakfast in Ennis! Then I could read some medical textbooks as well! :p

    As for shift workers, other than those working a 12 or 14 hour day from 8 or 9am, the opening of the public carpark barriers at night, gives them a park straight outside the front doors of the hospital.

    Would still need Park&Rides outside the city for patients coming from Donegal, Tipperary and anywhere in between!


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  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 59,887 Mod ✭✭✭✭ L1011


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    By the way, can you indicate whether you are an civil/roads engineer or some such? You seem to focus on these aspects of the GCOB (eg emphasising its design function as a bypass) whereas I am more concerned about local outcomes, local politics and local policies as well as broader issues such as orderly spatial planning and sustainability.

    I am neither (albeit I did get offered a civil engineering course in the CAO many years ago!), I am an extremely high usage road user. As a result, roads and road planning are a personal interest in to which I have read extensively.
    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    It is clear to me, and to high profile advocates of the bypass, that a key objective of the GCOB is to pave the way for massive new development in the city centre. Correct me if I am wrong, but you have either denied that is the case, dismissed it as irrelevant or ignored it because the bypass is "needed as a bypass", and "any traffic improvements for the city are nearly entirely unconnected to the bypass".

    I've dismissed it as I cannot see how the bypass is ever going to alleviate traffic in Galway Docks - as traffic there is not through traffic.
    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    Brian Walsh TD, a former board member of the Harbour Board (and possible current director of the Harbour Company -- I am still trying to confirm that) has stated categorically that the GCOB is needed to make the ambitious harbour development plan possible.

    Politics.

    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    MYOB, my impression is that you have good technical/engineering knowledge of strategic infrastructure like the GCOB.

    Looking just at the above two plans (they being by far the largest infrastructural developments proposed for the city, apart from the proposed bypass itself) can you give your opinion regarding (a) what relevance the Galway City Outer Bypass has to such massive development proposals, and (b) the likely traffic generation effects of the major developments.

    Both are going to be traffic generators, in an area that the bypass is not going to alleviate. I wouldn't be for them unless the planning authorities require serious transport planning constraints on them. As one of the proposers is CIE, a requirement to provide stations in Renmore, Oranmore etc with a commuter service might be one option (this would reduce traffic coming in from the East to Galway City Centre and *would* alleviate traffic in the Docks area)
    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    With regard to traffic reduction effects, cycle safety etc, it is self-evident that reducing motorised traffic through significant modal shift and extensive pro cycling/walking measures is not the same as reducing motorised traffic by constructing a bypass and then leaving the same number of cyclists/pedestrians to fend for themselves in an otherwise unchanged urban environment, especially with more traffic-generating development being proposed. If you believe otherwise, then so be it.

    Anto has already shown that the cycling proportion in Galway is higher than average so it unlikely any modal shift is going to be cycling more than bus/train..
    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    "You are anti-car and nothing else". Please don't say that to Betsy. She's sitting in the driveway outside and is very sensitive.
    [/QUOTE]

    You've never given an impression of anything but.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 Sponge Bob


    kiwipower wrote: »
    I so agree! Unfortunately I am classed as NON-hospital staff, even though i work for the HSE, so I dont have access to the staff carpark anyway!
    P and R in Oranmore would be ideal if they ever do build an LRT of sorts. I reckon I will be long crumbledy into the finesht dusht by then. :rolleyes:

    The GCOB bridge would look like these ones from what I remember and will be curved very much like these are.

    800px-Sunnibergbruecke_nordwest.jpg

    800px-Abdoun_Bridge_%288%29.jpg


  • Registered Users Posts: 802 kiwipower


    MYOB wrote: »
    I've dismissed it as I cannot see how the bypass is ever going to alleviate traffic in Galway Docks - as traffic there is not through traffic.

    I would generally agree with you MYOB. But I do know of the Docks being used as through traffic. Some colleges travel from the Tuam road through Lough-atholia & the Docks and out to Salthill. I have even meet folk who travel from Oranmore down the Dublin Road out Lough Atholia & the Docks to reach the UHG.


  • Registered Users Posts: 802 kiwipower


    Hey Sponge bob.
    Thanks for posting them.

    Can we please have the top one for Galway?
    The one with the Beautiful scenery, lovely warm weather and green fields? :p

    Oh the bridges look lovely too!


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 59,887 Mod ✭✭✭✭ L1011


    kiwipower wrote: »
    I would generally agree with you MYOB. But I do know of the Docks being used as through traffic. Some colleges travel from the Tuam road through Lough-atholia & the Docks and out to Salthill. I have even meet folk who travel from Oranmore down the Dublin Road out Lough Atholia & the Docks to reach the UHG.

    People are strange.

    Even when the 'ring road' is locked with traffic I can't see that the Docks is any faster? Its taken me 50 minutes to get from Hynes Yard carpark back to Renmore before let alone UHG to Oranmore!


  • Registered Users Posts: 802 kiwipower


    MYOB wrote: »
    People are strange.

    Even when the 'ring road' is locked with traffic I can't see that the Docks is any faster? Its taken me 50 minutes to get from Hynes Yard carpark back to Renmore before let alone UHG to Oranmore!

    I agree!
    But they do.
    I could never understand the ones coming from the Tuam road heading down to Moan-a-geshia then onto Lough Atholia. I ALWAYS avoid that route in heavy traffic! I guess they figure Bohemore & Quincentennial are worse.

    Please excuse my spelling on the Irish names.:rolleyes:


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 59,887 Mod ✭✭✭✭ L1011


    I'll revise my comment to "There's no through traffic (except a few serially confused people that'll probably avoid the bypass too) going through the Docks".


  • Registered Users Posts: 802 kiwipower


    MYOB wrote: »
    I'll revise my comment to "There's no through traffic (except a few serially confused people that'll probably avoid the bypass too) going through the Docks".

    I approve of your amendment and second your amendment!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 Iwannahurl


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Which bit of 'there is no space' do you idealogues not get?????



    "No space" for whom?

    There is adequate space for people, but very little for private cars. Since the majority of traffic on Galway City's roads is composed of private cars, and many if not most of these are single occupant, motorists therefore take up a grossly disproportionate amount of the finite space available.

    This is wasteful, inefficient and unsustainable.

    Which part of this illustration do car dependants not get?



    person-capacity.gif


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 Iwannahurl


    MYOB wrote: »
    You've never given an impression of anything but.



    You've never inferred anything but.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 Iwannahurl


    MYOB wrote: »
    People are strange.

    Even when the 'ring road' is locked with traffic I can't see that the Docks is any faster? Its taken me 50 minutes to get from Hynes Yard carpark back to Renmore before let alone UHG to Oranmore!



    Indeed, especially those Galway motorists who spend as much time sitting in their cars as they would walking the same distance.

    Hynes Yard carpark (Dock Road?) to general Renmore area: approx 3.5 km or 40 minutes on foot. Ten to fifteen minutes by bike.

    I travelled along part of that link regularly once upon a time. The worst bit was the appalling road surface and drainage, as well as seeing lines of vehicles illegally obstructing the footpaths with impunity. The best part was whizzing by hundreds of vehicles stalled in traffic, all the way from the Monivea Road to Fr Griffin Road.

    I'm not so anti-car that I don't own one, fully taxed, insured and paid for (and full of petrol just now, after laying out a horrendous €80 to fill it).

    I am, however, very anti stupidity and pointless pursuits. And much of the "driving" in Galway City is stupid and pointless. Anyone who willingly submits themselves to unnecessary slow-moving torture of this kind every day needs their head examined, IMO.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 Iwannahurl


    kiwipower wrote: »
    Oh the bridges look lovely too!



    Is that a 50 mph or 50 kph limit I see?

    If the latter, that would be a human rights violation against Irish drivers...


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 59,887 Mod ✭✭✭✭ L1011


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    Indeed, especially those Galway motorists who spend as much time sitting in their cars as they would walking the same distance.

    Hynes Yard carpark (Dock Road?) to general Renmore area: approx 3.5 km or 40 minutes on foot. Ten to fifteen minutes by bike.

    The contents of my van don't fit on a bike. Or a bus, for that matter.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 59,887 Mod ✭✭✭✭ L1011


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    Is that a 50 mph or 50 kph limit I see?

    If the latter, that would be a human rights violation against Irish drivers...

    Most likely km/h. Its Jordan which I can't find solid info on the speed limits for but it appears they're lower across the board than here, and in km/h - but thats off blog postings not official info.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 Iwannahurl


    MYOB wrote: »
    The contents of my van don't fit on a bike. Or a bus, for that matter.




    The key word in my post above is "unnecessary".

    For example, commercial traffic in Galway City is held up by unnecessary car use. Loading bays are often occupied by car users who have no necessity (or right) to park there.

    Then again, footpaths in Galway City are often occupied by van drivers who have no necessity (or right) to park on them.

    All part of Galway City's car-is-king culture.


  • Registered Users Posts: 129 ✭✭ tharlear


    I'll revise my comment to "There's no through traffic (except a few serially confused people that'll probably avoid the bypass too) going through the Docks

    Last year when I was home in October , I left parents house with my brother to go to oranmore at 8.30am on a tuesday, father left at same time, we turn left down bishop o'Donnell road and over the Quin bridge, and took the 4 lane road all the way to destination, he went down taylors hill around by the docks and out through Renmore and
    turned right on to the coast road at castlegar pitch. He got there 15min before us. Same thing that evening on the return trip, only he beat us by 20 minutes. He always uses the dock road to get across galway.

    And before Iwannanurl gets upset with us for taking 2 cars, the travelling party included 3 people over the age of 80, 2 under 3 one pregnant adult, the brother and I . No way we were going to walk or cycle 12 to 14KM, even taking 2 buses would have requied us to walk 3KM, and as always it was pissing rain.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 Iwannahurl


    tharlear wrote: »
    Last year when I was home in October , I left parents house with my brother to go to oranmore at 8.30am on a tuesday, father left at same time, we turn left down bishop o'Donnell road and over the Quin bridge, and took the 4 lane road all the way to destination, he went down taylors hill around by the docks and out through Renmore and
    turned right on to the coast road at castlegar pitch. He got there 15min before us. Same thing that evening on the return trip, only he beat us by 20 minutes. He always uses the dock road to get across galway.


    Which means he goes through the signalised Moaning-ageisha junction right?

    Might he therefore be one of those Galway motorists who is not whining about how the lights are sooooooo totally bad?

    By the way, i've just remembered that I favoured that route for my 24 km total daily commute, despite unpleasantries like the cycle-hostile one-way system on Merchant's Road and the water pooling on Lough Atalia Road, because I'd rather rub chili in my eyes than cycle on those stupid so-called "cycle paths" over the Quincentenary Bridge.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 59,887 Mod ✭✭✭✭ L1011


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    Might he therefore be one of those Galway motorists who is not whining about how the lights are sooooooo totally bad?

    The moaning generally stopped once the lights were finally properly programmed to make it only as bad as it had been when it was a roundabout. The first few weeks I suspect I'd have been quicker hiking with a military pack of all my kit...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 Iwannahurl


    MYOB wrote: »
    The moaning generally stopped once the lights were finally properly programmed to make it only as bad as it had been when it was a roundabout. The first few weeks I suspect I'd have been quicker hiking with a military pack of all my kit...



    Date, approximate or exact?


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  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 59,887 Mod ✭✭✭✭ L1011


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    Date, approximate or exact?

    Seeing as I can't remember when the roundabout was removed other than it being "after 2008" I can't remember how long it took GCC to fix the light programming. Add "few weeks" to whatever the date was for the approximate date.

    There's still improvements they could make to timing - and layout, such as making the right turn lane from Wellpark longer


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