Are people on the dole too entitled?

El Weirdo · 07-09-2011 04:06PM

denhaagenite wrote: »

I remember visiting a friend of a friend in Tarbert (back of nowhere I know but just an example, not isolated) who had a 3- bed council house overlooking the Shannon, which was equipped with a lovely Aga stove no less. Longterm boyfriend and father of her 3 year old not on birth cert and had been living with them since they got the house.

I also know a student with a child who lives with her parents, and herself and her boyfriend (long term unemployed, no education) share a 2 bedroom house paid for by rent allowance. She reckons because she can't get a council house this year, she might defer her course for a year and do something at a "crap" plc until the housing office gives her something, as she will also get an allowance from the plc. Bearing in mind that any money she gets is for both her and the child, and she doesn't even raise it.

I don't understand why people who are on the dole are not more outraged at these examples. If these people did not exist, or were caught earlier then there would be shorter waiting times for people who are not scamming, and less of a stigma attached to being in the system in the first place.

Simple.

Don't come onto the internet and moan about it unless you're prepared to do something about it.

AnonoBoy · 07-09-2011 04:10PM

denhaagenite wrote: »

I remember visiting a friend of a friend in Tarbert (back of nowhere I know but just an example, not isolated) who had a 3- bed council house overlooking the Shannon, which was equipped with a lovely Aga stove no less. Longterm boyfriend and father of her 3 year old not on birth cert and had been living with them since they got the house.

That's being on the housing list and a bit of welfare fraud combined there. She's not entitled to everything she's getting (presuming she's getting single parent's allowance or whatever it's called).

The fact that she's getting away with it is hopefully something that will be clamped down on (and if you're to believe the government something that they've already started clamping down on).

What I'm talking about is the benefits that people are entitled to. The OP seems to believe that the dole just magically buy people houses whenever they want.

Also OP - you're saying the girl you're talking about is a refugee. The benefits she's getting in that case may be different to people who are just on jobseeker's benefit.

emul8ter25 · 07-09-2011 04:11PM

Skunkle wrote: »

Seeing as you cant prove anything and its you who created the argument your the one with the problem. All I have to know as fact is you dont have a clue what your talking about.

If you want to slate people for abusing the system at least have a valid reason for doing it. What you have provided so far isnt proof of anything other than your own ignorance.

so obviously you dont have a clue what benefits refugees receive either.

emul8ter25 · 07-09-2011 04:14PM

AnonoBoy wrote: »

The OP seems to believe that the dole just magically buy people houses whenever they want.

I do not believe the gov will magically buy people housing whenever they want.
I do know that she has been provided housing, and was under the impression she could try to obtain nicer housing that would still be provided to her.

AnonoBoy · 07-09-2011 04:14PM

emul8ter25 wrote: »

so obviously you dont have a clue what benefits refugees receive either.

So after all this you're not actually talking about just ordinary Irish citizens on the dole at all are you?

denhaagenite · 07-09-2011 04:14PM

El Weirdo wrote: »

Simple.

Don't come onto the internet and moan about it unless you're prepared to do something about it.

Touché.

But as I'm not living at home and haven't been for a while, it's not my taxes they're scamming. I just think it's a shame for the people who have lost jobs, are on the verge of losing homes and for all the other cuts that are being made and are still to be made. It's also one of the reasons that I can't see myself going home at all.

AnonoBoy · 07-09-2011 04:15PM

emul8ter25 wrote: »

I do not believe the gov will magically buy people housing whenever they want.
I do know that she has been provided housing, and was under the impression she could try to obtain nicer housing that would still be provided to her.

She can try.

But she's a single woman living by herself is that right? I doubt very much she gets her own house.

I think she's winding you up and you fell for it.

emul8ter25 · 07-09-2011 04:16PM

AnonoBoy wrote: »

So after all this you're not actually talking about just ordinary Irish citizens on the dole at all are you?

no. i never said she was. and it was why i previously said i did not want to make it a racist issue, because some people would take it as such.

AnonoBoy · 07-09-2011 04:16PM

denhaagenite wrote: »

It's also one of the reasons that I can't see myself going home at all.

People committing welfare fraud is one of the reasons you're thinking of not coming home ever?

You do realise that welfare fraud isn't something that only exists in Ireland, don't you?

Snakeblood · 07-09-2011 04:17PM

A Primal Nut wrote: »

Can you give examples of when you confronted someone you don't know well over something they did?

A guy nearly ran over my foot when I was going across a zebra crossing the other day. I went round and stood in front of his car, shouting about the rules of the road. He got out, shouted for a bit, then crumpled and went back in because I was a foot taller than him.

Aww yeah.

emul8ter25 · 07-09-2011 04:22PM

Snakeblood wrote: »

A guy nearly ran over my foot when I was going across a zebra crossing the other day. I went round and stood in front of his car, shouting about the rules of the road. He got out, shouted for a bit, then crumpled and went back in because I was a foot taller than him.

Aww yeah.

that is truly something to be proud of. i bet you looked massive in your addidas track suit.

denhaagenite · 07-09-2011 04:23PM

AnonoBoy wrote: »

People committing welfare fraud is one of the reasons you're thinking of not coming home ever?

You do realise that welfare fraud isn't something that only exists in Ireland, don't you?

Ya of course but it's not as prevalent in some other countries, nor does it have such an effect on the rest of the population.

It's not the only reason!! I'm happy where I am and although there's alot of things that I miss about home the recession has made me see real cracks in Irish society that I just can't live with.

MungBean · 07-09-2011 04:23PM

emul8ter25 wrote: »

so obviously you dont have a clue what benefits refugees receive either.

Isnt that hard to find.

Same as an Irish citizen and seeing as an Irish citizen cant claim all that its a logical assumption to say she cant claim all that.

Better than "Her attitude sickens me, she's abusing the system" anyway.

fatboypee · 07-09-2011 04:25PM

Surely to goodness this is not about people "scamming" the system ?
Mrs FBP attends college as a mature student.

Alongside Mrs FBP her class is innumerably made up of people on the dole. For which, the WHOLE college course is paid for and along with it their dole money and some for the 'extras'.

The majority of those attending who are on the dole appear to be in their later years and at least two of those persons have openly admitted to Mrs FBP that they are doing the degree to "fill the time" and have absolutely no intention of using said qualification to secure a job post-qualification

People are people. They will take what they are offered. In this instance, the system as it exists for offering those on the dole free education is utterly and fundamentally FLAWED. Thus I would not even bother to castigate the person in receipt of such benefits, moreover it is MY TAXES that are paying for this obscenely liberal scheme meanwhile the fees Mrs FBP has to find each year go up

Yet another typical display of Hobbitton at it's best ladies and gentlemen.

Snakeblood · 07-09-2011 04:28PM

emul8ter25 wrote: »

that is truly something to be proud of. i bet you looked massive in your addidas track suit.

No, I don't have an adidas tracksuit. I do have an appreciation for road safety though. Cheers for your contribution.

fedor.2. · 07-09-2011 04:29PM

emul8ter25 wrote: »

that is truly something to be proud of. i bet you looked massive in your addidas track suit.

They see me trollin......they hatin

emul8ter25 · 07-09-2011 04:30PM

fatboypee wrote: »

Surely to goodness this is not about people "scamming" the system ?
Mrs FBP attends college as a mature student.

Alongside Mrs FBP her class is innumerably made up of people on the dole. For which, the WHOLE college course is paid for and along with it their dole money and some for the 'extras'.

The majority of those attending who are on the dole appear to be in their later years and at least two of those persons have openly admitted to Mrs FBP that they are doing the degree to "fill the time" and have absolutely no intention of using said qualification to secure a job post-qualification

People are people. They will take what they are offered. In this instance, the system as it exists for offering those on the dole free education is utterly and fundamentally FLAWED. Thus I would not even bother to castigate the person in receipt of such benefits, moreover it is MY TAXES that are paying for this obscenely liberal scheme meanwhile the fees Mrs FBP has to find each year go up

Yet another typical display of Hobbitton at it's best ladies and gentlemen.

You are absolutely correct.

My mistake was in displaying anger towards this one girl. As stated she has done nothing wrong, just taken advantage of the benefits available to her.

My rant should have been directed towards the system.
Unlike some other people here, I DO care where my taxes go.

MungBean · 07-09-2011 04:32PM

fatboypee wrote: »

Surely to goodness this is not about people "scamming" the system ?
Mrs FBP attends college as a mature student.

Alongside Mrs FBP her class is innumerably made up of people on the dole. For which, the WHOLE college course is paid for and along with it their dole money and some for the 'extras'.

The majority of those attending who are on the dole appear to be in their later years and at least two of those persons have openly admitted to Mrs FBP that they are doing the degree to "fill the time" and have absolutely no intention of using said qualification to secure a job post-qualification

People are people. They will take what they are offered. In this instance, the system as it exists for offering those on the dole free education is utterly and fundamentally FLAWED. Thus I would not even bother to castigate the person in receipt of such benefits, moreover it is MY TAXES that are paying for this obscenely liberal scheme meanwhile the fees Mrs FBP has to find each year go up

Yet another typical display of Hobbitton at it's best ladies and gentlemen.

Vast majority of college students are school leavers. A lot of those drop out because they have no interest in their course and are only there because its expected of them or because college is the place to go for good craic and eventually the lack of attendance catches up with them and they leave due to lack of a grant to pay for the booze.

The money wasted by school leaves in college is a hell of a bigger problem than mature students trying to get back to education. Stats actually show that mature students are more likely to finish a course and obtain a degree.

fedor.2. · 07-09-2011 04:34PM

emul8ter25 wrote: »

You are absolutely correct.

My mistake was in displaying anger towards this one girl. As stated she has done nothing wrong, just taken advantage of the benefits available to her.

My rant should have been directed towards the system.
Unlike some other people here, I DO care where my taxes go.

Id imagine you're on the minimum wage, so you dont pay that much tax if any, so relax

Dangerous Man · 07-09-2011 04:39PM

They are OP. Particularly the elderly and the disabled and those who can't find a job. They're all leeches. That reminds me of a song - 'Peaches' - by the Presidents of the United States of America.

In fact, if you substitute the word 'peaches' for the word leeches' in that song - you'll understand exactly how I feel about dole scum.

Probably. Or probably not.

Yay! Another dole thread.

Snakeblood · 07-09-2011 04:40PM

Dangerous Man wrote: »

Yay! Another dole thread.

Where do people who aren't on the dole during the working day find the time?

MungBean · 07-09-2011 04:43PM

fedor.2. wrote: »

Id imagine you're on the minimum wage, so you dont pay that much tax if any, so relax

Not often ya see students worried about where their taxes are going. Could be daddy's taxes he's worried about.

fatboypee · 07-09-2011 04:47PM

Skunkle wrote: »

Vast majority of college students are school leavers. A lot of those drop out because they have no interest in their course and are only there because its expected of them or because college is the place to go for good craic and eventually the lack of attendance catches up with them and they leave due to lack of a grant to pay for the booze.

The money wasted by school leaves in college is a hell of a bigger problem than mature students trying to get back to education. Stats actually show that mature students are more likely to finish a course and obtain a degree.

Very probably. Yet I still see no reason why my taxes should pay for people on the dole who have NO intention (or possibility) of using that qualification to obtain employment.

I've no issue with people getting funded to take a degree for purposes of getting a job. I do however object to those who fill their time at my expense by doing so without such intention while I'm struggling to find the cash to pay for my wife and child to do the same. Removing such "social" studying from the system would (I would naievely hope) at least buffer any such fee raise in the future...

emul8ter25 · 07-09-2011 04:49PM

fedor.2. wrote: »

Id imagine you're on the minimum wage, so you dont pay that much tax if any, so relax

I imagine you are wrong.

I am a mature student that returned to college while I continue to work in hopes that I can better myself when I complete my degree.

AnonoBoy · 07-09-2011 04:49PM

denhaagenite wrote: »

Ya of course but it's not as prevalent in some other countries, nor does it have such an effect on the rest of the population.

I dunno. Ever lived in America? It's rampant over there.

My anecdotal evidence is just as good as yours!

MungBean · 07-09-2011 05:08PM

fatboypee wrote: »

Very probably. Yet I still see no reason why my taxes should pay for people on the dole who have NO intention (or possibility) of using that qualification to obtain employment.

I've no issue with people getting funded to take a degree for purposes of getting a job. I do however object to those who fill their time at my expense by doing so without such intention while I'm struggling to find the cash to pay for my wife and child to do the same. Removing such "social" studying from the system would (I would naievely hope) at least buffer any such fee raise in the future...

In this instance, the system as it exists for offering those on the dole free education is utterly and fundamentally FLAWED.

Its as flawed as everything to do with education. To talk about it like that because a certain number of people will go to college and obtain a qualification that they might not use is a bit over the top. There is very few people who go to college to pass the time with no intention of using the qualifications that they get.

You have no issue with people who genuinely want the degree so how do you differentiate the two ? You ask them are you sure you will need a degree ? From your first post it sounded like you were pointing the finger directly at welfare recipients availing of the back to education allowance. That works out at pretty much the same as the dole anyway so they cost little extra by gaining an education instead of doing nothing and at the end they are in a much better position to gain employment whether they want to use the degree or not.

charlemont · 07-09-2011 05:12PM

FFS

fatboypee · 07-09-2011 05:32PM

Skunkle wrote: »

Its as flawed as everything to do with education. To talk about it like that because a certain number of people will go to college and obtain a qualification that they might not use is a bit over the top. There is very few people who go to college to pass the time with no intention of using the qualifications that they get.

You have no issue with people who genuinely want the degree so how do you differentiate the two ? You ask them are you sure you will need a degree ? From your first post it sounded like you were pointing the finger directly at welfare recipients availing of the back to education allowance. That works out at pretty much the same as the dole anyway so they cost little extra by gaining an education instead of doing nothing and at the end they are in a much better position to gain employment whether they want to use the degree or not.

The system should be loaded to ensure the recipient of the education gains employment. Those I am pointing the finger at are (in the cases I'm aware of) are at least 55 + and looking to take a Liberal Arts degree

For no other reason than self learning on a social scale for the most part.

Whether it works out cheaper or not is moot, as is whether those people attending the course are doing nothing otherwise. Notwithstanding the issues around this such as taking up course places I find such a system that allows the availing of social degrees by those on welfare to be overly generous, do you not ? Fiscal accountancy notwithstanding ?

On the point of finance I fail to see how it works out the same or near so when they get their allowances + the course ???

Someone (namely me and you) has to pay for that course...?

MungBean · 07-09-2011 05:53PM

fatboypee wrote: »

The system should be loaded to ensure the recipient of the education gains employment. Those I am pointing the finger at are (in the cases I'm aware of) are at least 55 + and looking to take a Liberal Arts degree For no other reason than self learning on a social scale for the most part.

Whether it works out cheaper or not is moot, as is whether those people attending the course are doing nothing otherwise. Notwithstanding the issues around this such as taking up course places I find such a system that allows the availing of social degrees by those on welfare to be overly generous, do you not ? Fiscal accountancy notwithstanding ?

On the point of finance I fail to see how it works out the same or near so when they get their allowances + the course ???

Someone (namely me and you) has to pay for that course...?

I very much doubt that there are many people doing courses to pass the time. It could also be argued that certain courses are a waste of time if there are insufficient jobs in that sector. Many people who get a good education are now leaving the country to find work so you could argue that those people have no business availing of tax payer money to get those qualification if they wont be working and paying tax here.

You could argue all of those but its pointless seeing as an education should be provided no matter what reason you have of getting it. There are 100 million things in this country that waste money, education is not the worst and if it needs reform it needs it to encourage more people to obtain degree's or get out there and do something that will increase the chance of finding employment not discourage people from doing it and make them remain uneducated, unemployed with little prospect of changing that.

As for the difference between whats received on the allowance as opposed to the dole its not a moot point at all, seeing as your argument is based on the waste of money. And there is very little difference between what someone receives on the dole and what they receive with the allowance. The difference is pretty much the college fee's which are paid to the state anyway and which have only recently been reintroduced and increased.

When you allow for the difference being 1.5-2k and very few people doing what your talking about the saving to the taxpayer wouldnt even be worth the TD's time to look at a proposal let alone draft up changes or spend the millions in implementing this new anti education system.

Logical Fallacy · 07-09-2011 06:15PM

A Primal Nut wrote: »

Can you give examples of when you confronted someone you don't know well over something they did?

Sure thing, one day i was on the Luas, as i was getting often I was told to "**** off back to Poland" by a chap. I told him i was from Ireland and to go and **** himself...he stuck out his hand and said "Sorry mate....", i told him i wasn't shaking his hand as i didn't agree with his racist attitude.

Assorted threats ensued with me repeatedly telling the guy to get the **** out of my face. Himself and his mates assured me i was due a kicking and I was still telling him he was a racist prick and i wanted nothing to do with it...if he wanted a fight then throw them bones...if he wanted to chat then he could **** off back to his skin head sowing circle.

Oddly enough, I posted a thread about it on boards at the time and was delighted to discover that a friend of a poster here had witnessed the whole thing and was ready to back me up if things got messy.

Pretty sure that counts and your attempt to devalue my point is now a burning wreck.

Next.

Are people on the dole too entitled?

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