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Poisoning/Shooting of Birds of Prey - Please read guidelines in first post

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  • #92
    LostCovey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,717 ✭✭✭LostCovey


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Where are you getting your info from?

    I don't expect Birdnuts will tell you the source of this information steddy eddy, and I do not know him/her, but I can confirm from a totally different part of the country that the emphasis is moving away from the broad brush, re-education emphasis to targeting known serial offenders.

    It will always be difficult to link person, poison, bait, death and prove pre-meditation.

    But with modern technology the odds have significantly improved.

    LostCovey


  • #93
    Kess73
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,560 ✭✭✭✭Kess73


    Mothman wrote: »
    This is extraordinarily callous.




    A Sparrowhawk was a victim as well. :mad:

    I still think it is of note that this thread has not been updated since February, but I'm struggling to restrain myself from typing stuff that would have me banned from here...:mad::mad:



    I try to avoid this thread at times as I am in the same boat as you in that I know my mouth would force a mod to ban me if I got started on a rant.


    Just sickening to see the ignorance that is constantly on display in Ireland towards wildlife by a large chunk of the population not to mention the sick and cruel acts like those in Roscrea.


    The lack of action taken when people actually get caught for this kind of thing and other cases of animal cruelty is a disgrace.

    Proper jail time should be given for this sort of thing, and plenty of press publicity should be given to anyone caught.

    I own a number of acres of land behind my house and that is where my resident sprawks have nested this year and the female has paired up on the land for a number of years now. If anyone came onto my land and tried to get near those birds they had better have good health insurance, and if I cannot catch them on foot (and as a regular marathon runner I fancy my chances), then they better hope they can outrun my Boerboel.


  • #94
    cuddlycavies
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 970 ✭✭✭cuddlycavies


    It's terribly sad. We have so few farmers like the one in the article. A few act as custodians of the land they manage and cherish the wildlife on it. [mod snip] The sad impact of poisoning in our attempts at re introduction(BOP) proves that. However they will not learn because they do not want to learn.


  • #95
    Mothman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,498 ✭✭✭Mothman


    Mod note
    This is a topic that needs to be moderated tightly.
    I won't tolerate generalisations against any sector of our society, whether it be farmers, pigeon fanciers, hunters etc etc.
    The people involved in these acts are in the extreme minority and it is not right or fair to tarnish the whole sector.

    If you have issue with my MOD intervention, PM me about it.


  • #96
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,565 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Mothman wrote: »
    Mod note
    This is a topic that needs to be moderated tightly.
    I won't tolerate generalisations against any sector of our society, whether it be farmers, pigeon fanciers, hunters etc etc.
    The people involved in these acts are in the extreme minority and it is not right or fair to tarnish the whole sector.

    If you have issue with my MOD intervention, PM me about it.

    Ill stick my neck out and second this I previously made the mistake of tarring all farmers with the same brush which was a bit stupid considering I know a few of them and I know very few would would do this to an animal. So apologies anyway and I do agree that very few would do this.


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  • #97
    bogtreader
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 350 ✭✭bogtreader


    I heard about this on the radio today i was absolutely disgusted at what happened.
    What is the mindset of someone who does this?


  • #98
    LostCovey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,717 ✭✭✭LostCovey


    bogtreader wrote: »
    I heard about this on the radio today i was absolutely disgusted at what happened.
    What is the mindset of someone who does this?

    It is quite shocking.

    Apparently the FBI regard the commission of severe cruelty to animals as a useful indicator of people who will become serial killers. I have not exp-lained that well, but to put it another way many sadistic serial killers have a history of starting off with perverse cruelty to animals.

    Another reason to tell the guards/NPWS if you have any information on the nutters who did this, or the likes of this.

    LC


  • #99
    blue5000
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,835 Mod ✭✭✭✭blue5000


    As a farmer I was absolutely disgusted when I heard about the roscrea case. For the first time last winter I was thrilled to see a pr of buzzards hunting in my area, I just hope this isn't the same group.

    If the seat's wet, sit on yer hat, a cool head is better than a wet ar5e.



  • #100
    Birdnuts
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,898 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    cuddlycavies wrote: »
    It's terribly sad. We have so few farmers like the one in the article. A few act as custodians of the land they manage and cherish the wildlife on it. [mod snip] The sad impact of poisoning in our attempts at re introduction(BOP) proves that. However they will not learn because they do not want to learn.

    I suspect is wasn't a farmer - buzzards do a great job on all kinds of vermin from rats to rabbits. I have my own suspicions as to the identity of the types behind this but I don't want to go down that road for now.

    PS: The fact that a child was put at risk by this incident really highlights the need for authorities to seriously upgrade this crime before the unthinkeable occurs, not that the scum behind this kind of thing care about who our what dies thanx to their actions:mad:


  • #101
    slowburner
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,227 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    Ditch wrote: »

    As a friend and neighbouring farmer asked me, in all sincerity, some years ago; " Why would I want to call you in, Ditch? Every year, the rats come into my farm yard. I crumble up some Storm and chuck it down. No more rats! "

    Now, he and I are both old enough to know I'm never going to convince him to give a monkeys about 'the environment'. No Way is he going to hire me, to do it 'properly'.

    And I'm sure he'll consider he has more pressing things to do than wander around searching for dead rats. " No more rats. " He thinks they just vanish into thin air.

    No way on gods little green earth is he going to shell out for dozens of 'proper' boxes. And, if no one's caught him " chucking it down " in the last fifty years? It's my certain guess that he'll just keep doing so.
    Sadly, this method of laying down rat poison is commonplace. The thinking behind the practice is that if the bait is laid in a central area, a dominant rat will take all of it back to its nest; so only one rat is killed.


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  • #102
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,565 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Birdnuts wrote: »
    I suspect is wasn't a farmer - buzzards do a great job on all kinds of vermin from rats to rabbits. I have my own suspicions as to the identity of the types behind this but I don't want to go down that road for now.

    PS: The fact that a child was put at risk by this incident really highlights the need for authorities to seriously upgrade this crime before the unthinkeable occurs, not that the scum behind this kind of thing care about who our what dies thanx to their actions:mad:

    Birdnuts I doubt a suffiecent investigation is under way I really do.


  • #103
    ytpe2r5bxkn0c1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 32,688 ✭✭✭✭ytpe2r5bxkn0c1


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Birdnuts I doubt a suffiecent investigation is under way I really do.

    The manner of this poisoning certainly points to another type of culprit (and I'm not going down that road here either). This is NOT typical farmer related poisoning. Farmers are not known to target Buzzards like this at all. Most actually enjoy their being around and others are neutral to them.

    You can also rest assured that a full and proper investigation is under way and will be as thorough as can be. What basis have you for your statement?


  • #104
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,565 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Ember Purring Wolverine wrote: »
    The manner of this poisoning certainly points to another type of culprit (and I'm not going down that road here either). This is NOT typical farmer related poisoning. Farmers are not known to target Buzzards like this at all. Most actually enjoy their being around and others are neutral to them.

    You can also rest assured that a full and proper investigation is under way and will be as thorough as can be. What basis have you for your statement?

    I formerly worked in animal welfare as part of my college placement in america and a in a voluntary capcity for a short time after college. Investigations like this shouldnt have nothing to show for it for such a long period of time. Give the birds to the forensic lab in ucd or trinity and the matter will be sorted. By the way as in my earlier post Im not saying a farmer did this.


  • #105
    ytpe2r5bxkn0c1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 32,688 ✭✭✭✭ytpe2r5bxkn0c1


    Eddy you write as though we haven' t a clue how to do things here. The birds did go to a forensic lab even though it can give no more detail than the on-site inspection gave. We know the nature of the poison(including manufacturer) and the means of application. Tracing the person who carried out the act is under way but that is the difficult item to prove to judicial satisfaction. Please give us some credit. The USA hardly has an impeccable record in wildlife policing matters!

    :)


  • #106
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,565 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Ember Purring Wolverine wrote: »
    Eddy you write as though we haven' t a clue how to do things here. The birds did go to a forensic lab even though it can give no more detail than the on-site inspection gave. We know the nature of the poison(including manufacturer) and the means of application. Tracing the person who carried out the act is under way but that is the difficult item to prove to judicial satisfaction. Please give us some credit. The USA hardly has an impeccable record in wildlife policing matters!

    :)

    Im Irish Ember Purring Wolverine I know the us hasnt got an excellent record on wildlife protection but when people are caught the punishment can be harsh depending on the state.


  • #107
    ytpe2r5bxkn0c1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 32,688 ✭✭✭✭ytpe2r5bxkn0c1


    But why assume we don't know how to do the job here? Why cast doubt on our methods and feel you have to suggest a university lab for forensic tests? Do you think we're incapable of having test carried out? (I assumed you were Irish - I was referring to your assertion of expertise from a spell on placement in the US)
    Catching people is the problem - in any country.

    Again: why do you doubt a sufficient investigation is under way? What is the basis for that assertion? I asked already and all you did was mention your time in the US and suggest the lab work.


  • #108
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,565 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Ember Purring Wolverine wrote: »
    But why assume we don't know how to do the job here? Why cast doubt on our methods and feel you have to suggest a university lab for forensic tests? Do you think we're incapable of having test carried out? (I assumed you were Irish - I was referring to your assertion of expertise from a spell on placement in the US)
    Catching people is the problem - in any country.

    Again: why do you doubt a sufficient investigation is under way? What is the basis for that assertion? I asked already and all you did was mention your time in the US and suggest the lab work.

    Because as per the post I questioned earlier a lot of people seem to think the culprits are being investigated as we speak ect and have been saying so for a while. The other thing is the poisons being used are in part controlled substances. The very least a seller can be traced.


  • #109
    LostCovey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,717 ✭✭✭LostCovey


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    I formerly worked in animal welfare as part of my college placement in america and a in a voluntary capcity for a short time after college. Investigations like this shouldnt have nothing to show for it for such a long period of time. Give the birds to the forensic lab in ucd or trinity and the matter will be sorted. By the way as in my earlier post Im not saying a farmer did this.

    I think its not releasing any State secrets to explain what the difficulty is here, SteddyEddy:

    The cause of death can be readily determined (by a forensic lab, as you suggest), and this has happened in many cases, inbcluding the most recent one, as Srameen said.

    What has to be proven is:

    What was the poison, who put the poison in the bait, who left the bait there, that they meant to poison wildlife, that the bird of prey took that bait, that the poison in that bait killed it.

    Thats a lot to prove, with no weak links in the chain. Fail to prove any part of this (beyond reasonable doubt) and you have no case.

    Thats where technology comes in, and not every case will go to court, because someone somewhere will wisely decide in many cases that going any further is a waste of taxpayers money if there isn't a good chance of a conviction.

    Thats the way the law works. Most crimes will never be detected, you just have to ensure that the consequences are severe enough for the minority of cases that are proven, to deter the average head-banger from trying it on.

    LostCovey


  • #110
    LostCovey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,717 ✭✭✭LostCovey


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Because as per the post I questioned earlier a lot of people seem to think the culprits are being investigated as we speak ect and have been saying so for a while. The other thing is the poisons being used are in part controlled substances. The very least a seller can be traced.

    No a seller can't be traced easily if something is completely banned, and the stuff is black market/imported.

    I think there are some very smart people working on these cases and have complete faith in their ability and integrity. If they fail to get a result in this case, that would not shake my confidence in them one bit.

    LC


  • #111
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,989 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    trebor28 wrote: »
    http://www.birdwatchireland.ie/Publications/eWings/eWingsIssue23August2011/BuzzardsfoundpoisonednearRoscrea/tabid/1194/Default.aspx
    Alan Lauder, BirdWatch Ireland's Chief Executive, noted, “This was a very deliberate targeting of a locally well-known Buzzard nest and a particularly cruel way of using hand-reared pigeons as live bait in order to poison the birds
    I wonder how he knows they were "hand-reared" as opposed to feral pigeons?


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  • #112
    LostCovey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,717 ✭✭✭LostCovey


    recedite wrote: »
    trebor28 wrote: »
    http://www.birdwatchireland.ie/Publications/eWings/eWingsIssue23August2011/BuzzardsfoundpoisonednearRoscrea/tabid/1194/Default.aspx
    Alan Lauder, BirdWatch Ireland's Chief Executive, noted, “This was a very deliberate targeting of a locally well-known Buzzard nest and a particularly cruel way of using hand-reared pigeons as live bait in order to poison the birds
    I wonder how he knows they were "hand-reared" as opposed to feral pigeons?


    Maybe the last meal in their crops was commercial pigeon ration.

    Maybe I am watching too much CSI.

    LostCovey


  • #113
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,989 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    It doesn't necessarily mean pigeon fanciers/racers are to blame though.
    If you needed a few live pigeons as bait it would be easier to buy them from a pet shop than to trap them.


  • #114
    LostCovey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,717 ✭✭✭LostCovey


    recedite wrote: »
    It doesn't necessarily mean pigeon fanciers/racers are to blame though.
    If you needed a few live pigeons as bait it would be easier to buy them from a pet shop than to trap them.

    True Recedite.

    There was no sense or logic to this. Apart from the sadistic cruelty and the illegality it was utterly without logic.

    What harm or offence do Buzzards cause???

    LC


  • #115
    blue5000
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,835 Mod ✭✭✭✭blue5000


    Never even occurred to me that it might be pigeon fanciers doing it. Hunters or farmers maybe more obvious to me. Anyone know if there have been any recent developements on this?

    If the seat's wet, sit on yer hat, a cool head is better than a wet ar5e.



  • #116
    whyulittle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,878 ✭✭✭whyulittle


    Red kite & buzzard poisoned in Wicklow

    Red kites bred successfully again in Wicklow during the summer of 2011 producing 17 wild young kites. The final phase of the red kite re-introduction was completed with the release of 59 kites in Wicklow and Dublin. Now in the autumn we report disappointing news that a red kite has been poisoned in Wicklow. The kite was poisoned with alphachloralose.

    The dead kite was handed in by a member of the public to the National Parks & Wildlife Service (NPWS) Headquarters at Wicklow Mountains National Park. Dead raptors are sent for testing at the State Veterinary Laboratories at Celbridge which confirmed poisoning as the cause of death of the kite.

    Full story at goldeneagle.ie.


  • #117
    Birdnuts
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,898 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    Its terribly depressing that this type of thing is still happening in the year 2011. We can but hope that the 2 legged vermin responsible are brought to justice ASAP!!!


  • #118
    Kess73
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,560 ✭✭✭✭Kess73


    Birdnuts wrote: »
    Its terribly depressing that this type of thing is still happening in the year 2011. We can but hope that the 2 legged vermin responsible are brought to justice ASAP!!!


    The thing about Ireland is that there is always an animal that is regarded as some kind of massive threat to one group or another.

    Plus you also have the fact that certain animals are seen as fair game to kill by one group or another.

    Badgers, otters, Raptors, deer, domestic dogs/cats etc all get targetted in this country, with many dying horrific deaths thanks to ignorance from people who claim to know the land but who really don't have a clue or sheer cruelty from people getting their kicks.


    I have lived in quite a few countries at this stage in my life, and whilst no country is perfect in terms of how animals get treated/respected, I have to say that from my experience Ireland ranks as one of the most ignorant and poorly informed countries with regards to nature, and I mean that right up to the law/decision makers.

    It really grinds my gears to read of yet another raptor poisoned, or to hear of a badger set being dug into to try and kill a few badgers for "sport"

    I think the fact that nature (being taught with correct details etc) is pretty much overlooked by the education system really adds to the problem.


  • #119
    kildare.17hmr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,615 ✭✭✭kildare.17hmr


    kess while i agree with alot of what you said i just have to pull you up on the deer bit. Deer numbers are managed and rightly so, if they were not we would have more traffic accidents involving them and alot more damage to forests and farm land. They have no natural predators so humans are the ones that keep numbers in check.

    All of the other animals you mentioned apart from cats have full protection under law and have no season they can be hunted only exception being badgers that can be culled by the athorities if they feel its needed


  • #120
    Kess73
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,560 ✭✭✭✭Kess73


    kildare.17hmr wrote: »
    kess while i agree with alot of what you said i just have to pull you up on the deer bit. Deer numbers are managed and rightly so, if they were not we would have more traffic accidents involving them and alot more damage to forests and farm land. They have no natural predators so humans are the ones that keep numbers in check.

    All of the other animals you mentioned apart from cats have full protection under law and have no season they can be hunted only exception being badgers that can be culled by the athorities if they feel its needed


    I was not referring to legal culling of badgers, or legal management of deer numbers. Nor was I referring to any animals that get legally hunted during the correct season by people who can legally do so.


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  • #121
    Birdnuts
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,898 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    I think the illegal persecution of these raptors is the most serious of these type of wildlife crimes in Ireland for a number of reasons. First, many populations are still fragile(epecially recently re-introduced species) and the loss of even one bird is signficant. Secondly the history of extinction of most of our large raptors over the years and how it came about is a stark warning that we should always be on our guard in this area. Raptors are a sentinel species that gives biologists an excellent reading of how healthy an ecosystem is eg. the danger of DDT to human and animal health was only realized when the population of Peregrine falcons crashed in the 60's.

    PS: Its good to see the NPWS taking this crime very seriously and the increased powers to search and monitor areas that are the scene of such crimes appears to be fully utililized going on the link provided:)


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