The Demise of the Empire

mattjack · 03-09-2011 08:23AM

Anyone seen KeithAFC ?

barone · 03-09-2011 08:51AM

is this the reason munster were able to defeat the all blacks :eek:

Show Time · 03-09-2011 09:54AM

Kadongy wrote: »

Our sovereignty was once so important to us that we commiserated Germany on the death of hitler and refused to negotiate on the use of the treaty ports in WW2 in exchange for the six counties - just to make a point. Now we gave the IMF the right to dictate policy in order to bail out some of the most corrupt people in the country, or something. And we let the USA use us as a military base, and a stop-off for torture flights - or something - for a little bit of cash too. Anyhoo - I think we pissed away a lot on ourselves.

Some facts:

Britain was so concerned with occupying Ireland for so long primarily because Ireland was too dangerously positioned as a possible base to attack a country whose main military strength was its navy. They could not risk a hostile power coming at them from here.

Our utility as a base to attack Britain, and to a lesser extent France, is the only reason we were able to stay sovereign. For the exact same reason they were so intent on keeping us occupied, they could never risk us being occupied by a hostile expansionist force. During World War 2 plans were drawn up for a counter invasion if Germany did decide to invade us - and they did consider it.

The decline of the British Empire was due to a number of factors. The loss of Ireland from it would be pretty far down that list. They lost Ireland largely because their forces were mainly needed for involvement in World War 1. Their country suffered pretty badly from its involvement in World War 2. Also Churchill made a big deal of how Britain believed in every nation's right to self-determination in order to drum up support for the Allies in WW2, and reassure neutral countries that the Allies were the ones they ought to support. This was bo||ocks of course; he was a staunch imperialist and was probably pretty happy to have a war to prove himself with. But all the same if you keep saying that, a lot of your colonies are going to listen.
Having a strong navy and difficult seas around your country wasn't quite such a military advantage either as technological advances came along. I think America's development into a superpower was helped a great deal by Europe blowing itself to bits for several years too.

Irish soldiers weren't that highly rated by the British either. We weren't included in their list of martial races - foreign peoples considered to be the best soldiers. They mainly preferred various Asian tribes - especially the Gurkhas.

Dev stood firm and thank f**k he did. There was no way old Winston was ever going to hand the North back and Dev and the dogs in the street knew it. Ireland became less of an issue once the USA entered the war in 41'.

getz · 03-09-2011 10:19AM

Show Time wrote: »

Dev stood firm and thank f**k he did. There was no way old Winston was ever going to hand the North back and Dev and the dogs in the street knew it. Ireland became less of an issue once the USA entered the war in 41'.

then it was lucky for ireland that the allies won WW11 isent it,?.or you would now be speaking german,goose stepping around dublin, and would not be a free country.http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11082316

Duckworth_Luas · 03-09-2011 10:43AM

getz wrote: »

then it was lucky for ireland that the allies won WW11 isent it,?.or you would now be speaking german,goose stepping around dublin, and would not be a free country.http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11082316

German military stopped goose stepping before WWII even started.

If anybody wants to know how beneficial being part of the UK/British Empire was for the average Irish peasant then just look at this map.

Kev_ps3 · 03-09-2011 10:44AM

I think this is the part where I come in and call the OP a west-Brit

getz · 03-09-2011 11:31AM

Duckworth_Luas wrote: »

German military stopped goose stepping before WWII even started.

If anybody wants to know how beneficial being part of the UK/British Empire was for the average Irish peasant then just look at this map.

the average european peasant did not have it so good either,two french revolutions[1830-1848].belgium seceded from the netherlands,greece broke free from the otterman empire,poland tried to break free from russia,germany took control of austria,italy also got involved, the only safe haven in europe was england

Wolfe Tone · 03-09-2011 11:47AM

Seen as someone mentioned Irish men fighting for the Brits, I came across this picture a while back...

Picture.

Its a picture of British army veterans in the north burning their discharge papers in response to the actions of the Brits.

I think the suggestion that Ireland somehow benefited at being under the yolk of the British Empire is ludicrous in the extreme. Ireland has always suffered due to the uncaring actions of the British, brutal actions which occurred despite so many Irish misguidedly fighting and dying for their Empire, whether it was the Redmondites or the veterans in the above picture it didn't matter.

who the fug · 03-09-2011 11:55AM

Irish what won it
Scotish what run it
English what lost it

A good legacy would have been a common education & judical system and freedom of travel, but that boat has sailed .

Was it the worst empire no, could it have been done better yes

getz · 03-09-2011 11:56AM

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Seen as someone mentioned Irish men fighting for the Brits, I came across this picture a while back...

Picture.

Its a picture of British army veterans in the north burning their discharge papers in response to the actions of the Brits.

I think the suggestion that Ireland somehow benefited at being under the yolk of the British Empire is ludicrous in the extreme. Ireland has always suffered due to the uncaring actions of the British, brutal actions which occurred despite so many Irish misguidedly fighting and dying for their Empire, whether it was the Redmondites or the veterans in the above picture it didn't matter.

they got rid of the empire and ended up with even a bigger commonwealth,must have done somthing right.[the hated british]

The Scientician · 03-09-2011 01:14PM

pragmatic1 wrote: »

A few jobs does not excuse colonisation, massacres, penal laws, the near destruction of our culture, slavery, evictions, famines, widespread bigotry, etc.

I never said it excused anything, I was just pointing out that despite the things you mention plenty of Irish people willingly signed up to colonise, proselytise, massacre, destrory cultures, enslave, evict, starve etc. other, even worse off people, around the globe. As I said in my post, the victim lense is only so useful. It's worth pointing out that the lot of Scottish, English, and Welsh peasants for the most part wasn't much better than that of the Irish. The rich who owned and controlled the empire stood to benefit most from it, however imagining Ireland was just lying here taking it while the English went about their merry empire building isn't born out by the facts. Take a look at the life of Roger Casement for an example of what I'm talking about.

As others have said though, the OP's notion that Britain and Ireland sat down at a table to plan conquest, as equals, is nonsense.

Celly Smunt · 03-09-2011 01:23PM

Ireland and Britain are a match made in heaven,can't live with it but can't live without it.

paddyandy · 03-09-2011 01:38PM

I worked in factories and shops in london with ex-nco's fromm ww11 and ww1 and i know why britain was great.They made rules and kept them.

Celly Smunt · 03-09-2011 01:44PM

paddyandy wrote: »

I worked in factories and shops in london with ex-nco's fromm ww11 and ww1 and i know why britain was great.They made rules and kept them.

how old are you :eek:

washman3 · 03-09-2011 02:12PM

barone wrote: »

is this the reason munster were able to defeat the all blacks :eek:

Nah, that was more down to the All-Blacks squad going on a massive piss-up at Durty Nellys pub in Bunratty the night before that famous game in Thomond Park. This is very rarely mentioned as it would take a lot from that "glorious occasion".

Show Time · 03-09-2011 07:10PM

getz wrote: »

then it was lucky for ireland that the allies won WW11 isent it,?.or you would now be speaking german,goose stepping around dublin, and would not be a free country.http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11082316

My point still stands on the six counties

There was no way in hell Ireland would have got them back despite the telegram from Winston to Dev where he use the line "A nation once again" in trying to tempt Ireland to abandon our neutral state.

And as it stands now the Germans run Europe.

Panty_thief · 03-09-2011 09:06PM

Show Time wrote: »

My point still stands on the six counties

There was no way in hell Ireland would have got them back despite the telegram from Winston to Dev where he use the line "A nation once again" in trying to tempt Ireland to abandon our neutral state.

And as it stands now the Germans run Europe.

Your post. It is 10 minutes late.

LordSutch · 03-09-2011 09:07PM

Agricola wrote: »

Ireland and Britain, best of pals, formed an empire and worked hard collectively to subjugate half the world. Then these old pals fell out, and the Irish left the British to it.............

I must have been out sick the day that history lesson was given

Well yes indeed, obviously its not taught in Irish schools, but its true, and Ireland did indeed form and help to admisister the British Empire! Ireland & Irish men were an integral part of the imperial machine, that is, untill 1922.

Of course nowadays we like to point the finger at Britain & the British people, and pretend thay we had nothing whatsoever to do with the British Empire, totally forgetting that we were part of the UK at that time + the fact that sooo many successive generations of Irish men were in the British Army & Administration machine. Ireland was to all intents & purposes part of Britain at the time of Empire.

Duckworth_Luas · 03-09-2011 09:19PM

LordSutch wrote: »

Well yes indeed, obviously its not taught in Irish schools, but its true, and Ireland did indeed form and help to admisister the British Empire! Ireland & Irish men were an integral part of the imperial machine, that is, untill 1922.

Of course nowadays we like to point the finger at Britain & the British people, and pretend thay we had nothing whatsoever to do with the British Empire, totally forgetting that we were part of the UK at that time + the fact that sooo many successive generations of Irish men were in the British Army & Administration machine. Ireland was to all intents & purposes part of Britain at the time of Empire.

Thanks Britain!

who the fug · 03-09-2011 09:29PM

Duckworth_Luas wrote: »

Thanks Britain!

Thanks for ****ed up scoring system:rolleyes:

Duckworth_Luas · 03-09-2011 09:37PM

who the fug wrote: »

Thanks for ****ed up scoring system:rolleyes:

All loyal sons of Her Imperial Majesty have no problem understanding it:p

who the fug · 03-09-2011 09:52PM

Duckworth_Luas wrote: »

All loyal sons of Her Imperial Majesty have no problem understanding it:p

As they say over ere

It is well Irish:D

The Scientician · 03-09-2011 09:58PM

Duckworth_Luas wrote: »

Thanks Britain!

See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highland_Potato_Famine

Duckworth_Luas · 03-09-2011 10:00PM

The Scientician wrote: »

See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highland_Potato_Famine

Quite a contrast.

KeithAFC · 03-09-2011 10:20PM

I really wish I was alive then when we had conquered so much land and had so many great battles and great generals. Amazing times for the country.

mattjack · 03-09-2011 10:26PM

KeithAFC wrote: »

I really wish I was alive then when we had conquered so much land and had so many great battles and great generals. Amazing times for the country.

:pac:

The Scientician · 03-09-2011 10:28PM

KeithAFC wrote: »

I really wish I was alive then when we had conquered so much land and had so many great battles and great generals. Amazing times for the country.

It was harder to hold on to it all, wha?

ejmaztec · 03-09-2011 10:32PM

KeithAFC wrote: »

I really wish I was alive then when we had conquered so much land and had so many great battles and great generals. Amazing times for the country.

Amazing for the upper classes and officers, but far from amazing for anyone else. It was the ordinary Englishmen, Scotsmen, Welshmen and Irishmen who got suckered into doing the dirty work, and they got feck all out of it.

Celly Smunt · 03-09-2011 10:35PM

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Seen as someone mentioned Irish men fighting for the Brits, I came across this picture a while back...

Picture.

Its a picture of British army veterans in the north burning their discharge papers in response to the actions of the Brits.

I think the suggestion that Ireland somehow benefited at being under the yolk of the British Empire is ludicrous in the extreme. Ireland has always suffered due to the uncaring actions of the British, brutal actions which occurred despite so many Irish misguidedly fighting and dying for their Empire, whether it was the Redmondites or the veterans in the above picture it didn't matter.

To a certain extent,The anti british sentiment amongst some Irish people is heavily parallel to monty pythons "what have the romans ever done for us" attitude.

The soldiers sent over here were mainly from the fúcked up regiments and the marines,paras etc etc after WW1 or onwards..Mismanagement of Ireland by Britain is to blame for most atrocities,i.e a nationalist man in londonderry could either sit around all day unemployed or join the I.R.A thus creating their own enemy,If the british were to promote support in emplyoing these people to put food on the table (by which i mean not withdraw jobs on terms of background) the events between both countries would've been far more humble in the long run.Can't change the past but both sides have a black shadow on the whether they nationalist or british.

KeithAFC · 03-09-2011 10:38PM

ejmaztec wrote: »

Amazing for the upper classes and officers, but far from amazing for anyone else. It was the ordinary Englishmen, Scotsmen, Welshmen and Irishmen who got suckered into doing the dirty work, and they got feck all out of it.

Would have been great to just be involved in it and being a general, even better. If you die, it was for King and country. Duke of Wellington, one of my heroes. The greatest general.

The Demise of the Empire

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