The Demise of the Empire

Mahatma coat

Been thinkin about this for a bit

Once upon a time this little Island and the one Due East of us went out and decided to form themselves an Empire. they refered to themselves collectivley as
Great Britain And Ireland

So with the combined skills of these two Islands We managed to conquer and Subjugate 1/3 of the Planets Landmass and had total dominance of the Seas.

Britain provided the Pomp and ceremony, the petty regulations and the general air of superiority, along with some Very clever industrial advancements it the field of Murderin uppity natives and stealin all their stufff

Ireland provided the clerical expertise to actually maintain a global empire, along with the Technical knowhow to Build its infrastructure and keep the aforementioned Uppity Natives in check.

Aside from a few minor mishaps like Losing Control of what would go on to be the USA (they kept Canada tho) and never Fully conquering Africa the whole thing ran Pretty Sweetly.

So then Some lads here in Ireland got the notion that Oppressin Foreignists was a Bad thing and we should really give up on this empire lark and just mind our own business and leae the Murder Pillage and pompusness to the Brits by themselves

So we Quit

When Ireland Quit the Empire was still a massive concern, We didnt take any of it for ourselves, We gave them everything, Hell we even let them have a little bit of Ireland for old time sake, even tho we should have been entitled to a fair whack of it, Australia in Particular was one of Ireland better ventures also Northern India and large chunks of Africa were really ours from day one.

300 odd years we were at it, Building the Greatest empire the world has ever seen.

It Took em less than fifty Years to Piss it all away without us.

So

Should we start again, but this time leave the Brits at home???

AnamGlas

Thank God, thought you were on about the Holy Empire of Deanianity.

fiinch

Brits out.

The King of Moo

Na, imperialism is a barbaric notion, assuming superiority based on arbitrary reasons, and usually involves lots of murder, as you mentioned yourself OP.

So no, good riddance to the empire, I'm glad the sun finally set on it.

Saila

you're saying that like we had a part to play in that

Kadongy

Our sovereignty was once so important to us that we commiserated Germany on the death of hitler and refused to negotiate on the use of the treaty ports in WW2 in exchange for the six counties - just to make a point. Now we gave the IMF the right to dictate policy in order to bail out some of the most corrupt people in the country, or something. And we let the USA use us as a military base, and a stop-off for torture flights - or something - for a little bit of cash too. Anyhoo - I think we pissed away a lot on ourselves.

Some facts:

Britain was so concerned with occupying Ireland for so long primarily because Ireland was too dangerously positioned as a possible base to attack a country whose main military strength was its navy. They could not risk a hostile power coming at them from here.

Our utility as a base to attack Britain, and to a lesser extent France, is the only reason we were able to stay sovereign. For the exact same reason they were so intent on keeping us occupied, they could never risk us being occupied by a hostile expansionist force. During World War 2 plans were drawn up for a counter invasion if Germany did decide to invade us - and they did consider it.

The decline of the British Empire was due to a number of factors. The loss of Ireland from it would be pretty far down that list. They lost Ireland largely because their forces were mainly needed for involvement in World War 1. Their country suffered pretty badly from its involvement in World War 2. Also Churchill made a big deal of how Britain believed in every nation's right to self-determination in order to drum up support for the Allies in WW2, and reassure neutral countries that the Allies were the ones they ought to support. This was bo||ocks of course; he was a staunch imperialist and was probably pretty happy to have a war to prove himself with. But all the same if you keep saying that, a lot of your colonies are going to listen.
Having a strong navy and difficult seas around your country wasn't quite such a military advantage either as technological advances came along. I think America's development into a superpower was helped a great deal by Europe blowing itself to bits for several years too.

Irish soldiers weren't that highly rated by the British either. We weren't included in their list of martial races - foreign peoples considered to be the best soldiers. They mainly preferred various Asian tribes - especially the Gurkhas.

Agricola

Ireland and Britain, best of pals, formed an empire and worked hard collectively to subjugate half the world. Then these old pals fell out, and the Irish left the British to it.............

I must have been out sick the day that history lesson was given

Killer Pigeon

OP, you're painting it as though Ireland decided to be apart of the British Empire. The Irish didn't decide anything. Instead, they were forced to work almost like slaves or be apart of the British Army's front line cannon fodder.

TheUsual

We should invade and pillage The Faroe Islands. Those heathen bastards.

And Brian Kerr is the manager of their football team so that's handy.

Penn

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

OP, you're painting it as though Ireland decided to be apart of the British Empire.

Screw that, he keeps saying "We". He's blaming you and me, Killer Pigeon. Can you believe that? Cheek of 'im!

I WASN'T EVEN THERE THAT DAY!

Killer Pigeon

AnamGlas wrote: »

Thank God, thought you were on about the Holy Empire of Deanianity.

The DSRR defeated the HED looooonnnng ago.

DjFlin

"Ireland Quit" made me LOL.

I can just picture us there with Britain. "Listen Brit, its not you, its me, really, I just cant do this anymore. I'm sorry"

Killer Pigeon

Barrington wrote: »

Screw that, he keeps saying "We". He's blaming you and me, Killer Pigeon. Can you believe that? Cheek of 'im!

I WASN'T EVEN THERE THAT DAY!

That's it exactly. Also, there's a good chance that many people who call themselves "Irish" nowadays mightn't even be related to the Irish who were first subjugated by the English/British. For example, my ancestors on my maternal side are Norman/Viking and my ancestors on my paternal side are English going back 400-500 years ago.

Mahatma coat

OK Obviously when I say We, I mean the Irish that werent Bog ignorant Peasents.

the Empire was sustained by Irish civil servants in many areas, notably India and Australia

washman3

Kadongy wrote: »

Our sovereignty was once so important to us that we commiserated Germany on the death of hitler and refused to negotiate on the use of the treaty ports in WW2 in exchange for the six counties - just to make a point. Now we gave the IMF the right to dictate policy in order to bail out some of the most corrupt people in the country,

Who was it that commiserated Germany on the death of Hitler.??
De Valera by any chance? Well he was'nt speaking for the vast majority of the people of Ireland.
Well i'm aware that Haughey and Reynolds were pals with Gaddafi and visited his "tent" for discussions on Irish beef deals.
Remember Reynolds on the Late Late show praising him as a "strong" leader.
And did'nt the catholic church here support Franco during the Spanish civil war??

randylonghorn

Mahatma coat wrote: »

Once upon a time this little Island and the one Due East of us went out and decided ...

Srsly, du-u-u-de, the people of this here little island never decided any such of a thing!!

Kadongy

washman3 wrote: »

Who was it that commiserated Germany on the death of Hitler.??
De Valera by any chance? Well he was'nt speaking for the vast majority of the people of Ireland.
Well i'm aware that Haughey and Reynolds were pals with Gaddafi and visited his "tent" for discussions on Irish beef deals.
Remember Reynolds on the Late Late show praising him as a "strong" leader.
And did'nt the catholic church here support Franco during the Spanish civil war??

It was De Valera yeah

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twYI6NlfrUw

Wolfe Tone

I just don't know what to say. Might want to consult a history book or two OP.

Mahatma coat

Ah but the History books are all revisionist nonsense playing down our part so that the Brits can feel good about themselves and we can blame all our current woes on them

starbelgrade

Mahatma coat wrote: »

300 odd years we were at it, Building the Greatest empire the world has ever seen.

It Took em less than fifty Years to Piss it all away without us.

So

Should we start again, but this time leave the Brits at home???

Sure.

We'll call it "The Empire Strikes Back".

Son Of A Vidic

washman3 wrote: »

And did'nt the catholic church here support Franco during the Spanish civil war??

If there's one thing people should have learned by now? It's not to use the Catholic Church as any sort of moral compass.

The Scientician

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

OP, you're painting it as though Ireland decided to be apart of the British Empire. The Irish didn't decide anything. Instead, they were forced to work almost like slaves or be apart of the British Army's front line cannon fodder.

Plenty of young Irishmen signed up to the British Army for economic reasons, or y'know for a bit of crack. Lots of Irish did well out of the Empire as the OP says much of the bureaucratic apparatus of the Empire was run disproportionately by Irish personnel. The "Ireland as victim" lense of looking at the history of it all ignores the willing participation of many Irish people and institutions like the church in the imperial project.

Those satiral anti-war songs from the 19th century like Arthur McBride, Johnny, I hardly Knew Ye etc. wouldn't have any potency but for the fact droves of Irishmen did take the Saxon shilling and go off gutting people in far flung parts of the world.

policarp

Who paid the price for the Empire?
The Australians.
The Canadians.
The Indians.
The NewZealanders.
The Jamaicans.
Many more and
the Irish. . .

Killer Pigeon

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

I just don't know what to say. Might want to consult a history book or two OP.

Wolfe Tone, you aren't reading this thread, it isn't real. It is all a dream, just ignore it. It'll disappear in the morning, like all those other bad dreams.

pragmatic1

The Scientician wrote: »

Plenty of young Irishmen signed up to the British Army for economic reasons, or y'know for a bit of crack. Lots of Irish did well out of the Empire as the OP says much of the bureaucratic apparatus of the Empire was run disproportionately by Irish personnel. The "Ireland as victim" lense of looking at the history of it all ignores the willing participation of many Irish people and institutions like the church in the imperial project.

Those satiral anti-war songs from the 19th century like Arthur McBride, Johnny, I hardly Knew Ye etc. wouldn't have any potency but for the fact droves of Irishmen did take the Saxon shilling and go off gutting people in far flung parts of the world.

A few jobs does not excuse colonisation, massacres, penal laws, the near destruction of our culture, slavery, evictions, famines, widespread bigotry, etc.

Overheal

I know where not to come for study help when I take history next semester.

shannon_tek

oh you Irish and your ways in History. :pac:

randylonghorn

Mahatma coat wrote: »

Ah but the History books are all revisionist nonsense playing down our part so that the Brits can feel good about themselves and we can blame all our current woes on them

Actually, the revisionist school of historians would have tended to be more kind to both the British government and the ascendancy in Ireland than their predecessors.

There were plenty of Irish involved in later empire-building as both soldiers and administrators, no-one is denying that, but the idea that the Irish and the English sat down and had a pow-wow and decided to create an empire is pretty daft tbh ... pretty much a conspiracy theory, in fact, and not even a particularly credible one.

Mahatma coat

Most of the British didnt Choose to form an empire either, they just woke up one mornin to find that the people in charge had just gone and made one, but they went along withl it for the Laugh, much like the Irish of the day.

We just happened to be a lot Better at the whole empire building lark than them, but far more modest so we let them call it after themselves

Kadongy

Mahatma coat wrote: »

Most of the British didnt Choose to form an empire either, they just woke up one mornin to find that the people in charge had just gone and made one, but they went along withl it for the Laugh, much like the Irish of the day.

We just happened to be a lot Better at the whole empire building lark than them, but far more modest so we let them call it after themselves

I think you might find that a lot of the British people had a stronger sense of patriotism in the British Empire than the citizens of their colony did.

getz

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

That's it exactly. Also, there's a good chance that many people who call themselves "Irish" nowadays mightn't even be related to the Irish who were first subjugated by the English/British. For example, my ancestors on my maternal side are Norman/Viking and my ancestors on my paternal side are English going back 400-500 years ago.

the normans were vikings,they were a viking tribe[norsemen] who settled who were granted lands in france by charles 111, of france,

mattjack

Anyone seen KeithAFC ?

barone

is this the reason munster were able to defeat the all blacks :eek:

Show Time

Kadongy wrote: »

Our sovereignty was once so important to us that we commiserated Germany on the death of hitler and refused to negotiate on the use of the treaty ports in WW2 in exchange for the six counties - just to make a point. Now we gave the IMF the right to dictate policy in order to bail out some of the most corrupt people in the country, or something. And we let the USA use us as a military base, and a stop-off for torture flights - or something - for a little bit of cash too. Anyhoo - I think we pissed away a lot on ourselves.

Some facts:

Britain was so concerned with occupying Ireland for so long primarily because Ireland was too dangerously positioned as a possible base to attack a country whose main military strength was its navy. They could not risk a hostile power coming at them from here.

Our utility as a base to attack Britain, and to a lesser extent France, is the only reason we were able to stay sovereign. For the exact same reason they were so intent on keeping us occupied, they could never risk us being occupied by a hostile expansionist force. During World War 2 plans were drawn up for a counter invasion if Germany did decide to invade us - and they did consider it.

The decline of the British Empire was due to a number of factors. The loss of Ireland from it would be pretty far down that list. They lost Ireland largely because their forces were mainly needed for involvement in World War 1. Their country suffered pretty badly from its involvement in World War 2. Also Churchill made a big deal of how Britain believed in every nation's right to self-determination in order to drum up support for the Allies in WW2, and reassure neutral countries that the Allies were the ones they ought to support. This was bo||ocks of course; he was a staunch imperialist and was probably pretty happy to have a war to prove himself with. But all the same if you keep saying that, a lot of your colonies are going to listen.
Having a strong navy and difficult seas around your country wasn't quite such a military advantage either as technological advances came along. I think America's development into a superpower was helped a great deal by Europe blowing itself to bits for several years too.

Irish soldiers weren't that highly rated by the British either. We weren't included in their list of martial races - foreign peoples considered to be the best soldiers. They mainly preferred various Asian tribes - especially the Gurkhas.

Dev stood firm and thank f**k he did. There was no way old Winston was ever going to hand the North back and Dev and the dogs in the street knew it. Ireland became less of an issue once the USA entered the war in 41'.

getz

Show Time wrote: »

Dev stood firm and thank f**k he did. There was no way old Winston was ever going to hand the North back and Dev and the dogs in the street knew it. Ireland became less of an issue once the USA entered the war in 41'.

then it was lucky for ireland that the allies won WW11 isent it,?.or you would now be speaking german,goose stepping around dublin, and would not be a free country.http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11082316

Duckworth_Luas

getz wrote: »

then it was lucky for ireland that the allies won WW11 isent it,?.or you would now be speaking german,goose stepping around dublin, and would not be a free country.http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11082316

German military stopped goose stepping before WWII even started.

If anybody wants to know how beneficial being part of the UK/British Empire was for the average Irish peasant then just look at this map.

Kev_ps3

I think this is the part where I come in and call the OP a west-Brit

getz

Duckworth_Luas wrote: »

German military stopped goose stepping before WWII even started.

If anybody wants to know how beneficial being part of the UK/British Empire was for the average Irish peasant then just look at this map.

the average european peasant did not have it so good either,two french revolutions[1830-1848].belgium seceded from the netherlands,greece broke free from the otterman empire,poland tried to break free from russia,germany took control of austria,italy also got involved, the only safe haven in europe was england

Wolfe Tone

Seen as someone mentioned Irish men fighting for the Brits, I came across this picture a while back...

Picture.

Its a picture of British army veterans in the north burning their discharge papers in response to the actions of the Brits.

I think the suggestion that Ireland somehow benefited at being under the yolk of the British Empire is ludicrous in the extreme. Ireland has always suffered due to the uncaring actions of the British, brutal actions which occurred despite so many Irish misguidedly fighting and dying for their Empire, whether it was the Redmondites or the veterans in the above picture it didn't matter.

who the fug

Irish what won it
Scotish what run it
English what lost it

A good legacy would have been a common education & judical system and freedom of travel, but that boat has sailed .

Was it the worst empire no, could it have been done better yes

getz

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Seen as someone mentioned Irish men fighting for the Brits, I came across this picture a while back...

Picture.

Its a picture of British army veterans in the north burning their discharge papers in response to the actions of the Brits.

I think the suggestion that Ireland somehow benefited at being under the yolk of the British Empire is ludicrous in the extreme. Ireland has always suffered due to the uncaring actions of the British, brutal actions which occurred despite so many Irish misguidedly fighting and dying for their Empire, whether it was the Redmondites or the veterans in the above picture it didn't matter.

they got rid of the empire and ended up with even a bigger commonwealth,must have done somthing right.[the hated british]

The Scientician

pragmatic1 wrote: »

A few jobs does not excuse colonisation, massacres, penal laws, the near destruction of our culture, slavery, evictions, famines, widespread bigotry, etc.

I never said it excused anything, I was just pointing out that despite the things you mention plenty of Irish people willingly signed up to colonise, proselytise, massacre, destrory cultures, enslave, evict, starve etc. other, even worse off people, around the globe. As I said in my post, the victim lense is only so useful. It's worth pointing out that the lot of Scottish, English, and Welsh peasants for the most part wasn't much better than that of the Irish. The rich who owned and controlled the empire stood to benefit most from it, however imagining Ireland was just lying here taking it while the English went about their merry empire building isn't born out by the facts. Take a look at the life of Roger Casement for an example of what I'm talking about.

As others have said though, the OP's notion that Britain and Ireland sat down at a table to plan conquest, as equals, is nonsense.

Celly Smunt

Ireland and Britain are a match made in heaven,can't live with it but can't live without it.

paddyandy

I worked in factories and shops in london with ex-nco's fromm ww11 and ww1 and i know why britain was great.They made rules and kept them.

Celly Smunt

paddyandy wrote: »

I worked in factories and shops in london with ex-nco's fromm ww11 and ww1 and i know why britain was great.They made rules and kept them.

how old are you :eek:

washman3

barone wrote: »

is this the reason munster were able to defeat the all blacks :eek:

Nah, that was more down to the All-Blacks squad going on a massive piss-up at Durty Nellys pub in Bunratty the night before that famous game in Thomond Park. This is very rarely mentioned as it would take a lot from that "glorious occasion".

Show Time

getz wrote: »

then it was lucky for ireland that the allies won WW11 isent it,?.or you would now be speaking german,goose stepping around dublin, and would not be a free country.http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11082316

My point still stands on the six counties

There was no way in hell Ireland would have got them back despite the telegram from Winston to Dev where he use the line "A nation once again" in trying to tempt Ireland to abandon our neutral state.

And as it stands now the Germans run Europe.

Panty_thief

Show Time wrote: »

My point still stands on the six counties

There was no way in hell Ireland would have got them back despite the telegram from Winston to Dev where he use the line "A nation once again" in trying to tempt Ireland to abandon our neutral state.

And as it stands now the Germans run Europe.

Your post. It is 10 minutes late.

LordSutch

Agricola wrote: »

Ireland and Britain, best of pals, formed an empire and worked hard collectively to subjugate half the world. Then these old pals fell out, and the Irish left the British to it.............

I must have been out sick the day that history lesson was given

Well yes indeed, obviously its not taught in Irish schools, but its true, and Ireland did indeed form and help to admisister the British Empire! Ireland & Irish men were an integral part of the imperial machine, that is, untill 1922.

Of course nowadays we like to point the finger at Britain & the British people, and pretend thay we had nothing whatsoever to do with the British Empire, totally forgetting that we were part of the UK at that time + the fact that sooo many successive generations of Irish men were in the British Army & Administration machine. Ireland was to all intents & purposes part of Britain at the time of Empire.

Duckworth_Luas

LordSutch wrote: »

Well yes indeed, obviously its not taught in Irish schools, but its true, and Ireland did indeed form and help to admisister the British Empire! Ireland & Irish men were an integral part of the imperial machine, that is, untill 1922.

Of course nowadays we like to point the finger at Britain & the British people, and pretend thay we had nothing whatsoever to do with the British Empire, totally forgetting that we were part of the UK at that time + the fact that sooo many successive generations of Irish men were in the British Army & Administration machine. Ireland was to all intents & purposes part of Britain at the time of Empire.

Thanks Britain!

who the fug

Duckworth_Luas wrote: »

Thanks Britain!

Thanks for ****ed up scoring system:rolleyes: