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Would you abort a child with Down Syndrome?

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Comments

  • #62
    prinz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    CerebralCortex wrote: »
    Well of course you're misrepresenting what I consider acceptable for abortion. Nowhere, nohow am I saying "KILL WEAK PEOPLE!".

    Abortion is killing...and the unborn are weak. You are not saying "KILL THE WEAK PEOPLE!", but you are arguing that it should be acceptable for some people to legally kill the weak.
    CerebralCortex wrote: »
    No I'm saying that abortion is okay in regulated circumstances. You believe on extremely poor/non-existent evidence and personal faith that a brainless conciousness-less pile of cells is the same as a person with feeling and capacity for suffering which includes DS suffers, nonDS people, dolphins, great apes, dogs etc. What straw-man am I or have I built in that?

    Once again ignoring the fact that abortion can be carried out on a fetus with a serious disability up to nine months in the UK and other places. Is that your "brainless conciousness-less pile of cells? Isn't that one of the aspects of abortion that is conveniently left aside. You have already on this thread made clear that you consider those with progessed Alzheimer's to be dead to you, is euthanasia of them okay in regulated circumstances?


  • #63
    prinz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    CerebralCortex wrote: »
    No one is suggesting making children disappear, just you in all your wisdom :rolleyes:

    So you are pregnant one day, not the next. What would you call it?


  • #64
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    prinz wrote: »
    ......Horrible terminology? Why, does it upset you that I am able to express what others tip-toe around to make things more palatable for themselves? I'm 'dismissive' of it in the same way I'd be dismissive of an idea to save on the costs of Special Needs Assistants by going classroom to classroom and killing those schoolchildren who needed them. I find it abhorrent to put a price tag on a human life - and saying you have to weigh up the future costs of caring for someone against their right to life is doing exactly that. By the by it has an impact. That doesn't make it the 'drain' that others have alluded to. So yes, you can it have it both ways, admitting something has an impact is neither a positive nor a negative assessment. It wasn't me who turned it into a negative, hence my comment.

    Its horrible because an extremely condescending and deliberate way of lumping any mention of the wider impact of a DS child as being inhuman. It has an impact on resources, that's just being practical. its contradictory anyway, as it can't be perceived as in not real, and also have a cost.


  • #65
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    Seems to me you're making this a thread not about DS but about abortion.


  • #66
    prinz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    BostonB wrote: »
    Its horrible because an extremely condescending and deliberate way of lumping any mention of the wider impact of a DS child as being inhuman. It has an impact on resources, that's just being practical. its contradictory anyway, as it can't be perceived as in not real, and also have a cost.

    A cost is not always a 'drain' the way it is being presented hence my comments that impacts on resources can be viewed positively, neutrally or negatively, as I said using the 'impact on resources' line as an argument for abortion is taking the view that any such impact is a negative.


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  • #67
    CerebralCortex
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,811 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    prinz wrote: »
    Abortion is killing...

    Proof by assertion.
    prinz wrote: »
    and the unborn are weak. You are not saying "KILL THE WEAK PEOPLE!", but you are arguing that it should be acceptable for some people to legally kill the weak.

    No I'm not. You're misrepresenting me again. I'm arguing that abortion is okay to a point, certainly not in the later stages especially if that means suffering.
    prinz wrote: »
    Once again ignoring the fact that abortion can be carried out on a fetus with a serious disability up to nine months in the UK and other places.

    I'm not, that's your thing.
    prinz wrote: »
    Is that your "brainless conciousness-less pile of cells? Isn't that one of the aspects of abortion that is conveniently left aside. You have already on this thread made clear that you consider those with progessed Alzheimer's to be dead to you, is euthanasia of them okay in regulated circumstances?

    Well their brains are dying, that's where the person resides, the person you know. Yes euthanasia should be an option for them, in fact people do opt to be euthanised so they can die with dignity.


  • #68
    prinz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    BostonB wrote: »
    Seems to me you're making this a thread not about DS but about abortion.

    Correct me if I'm wrong but the thread wasn't about living with DS, or dealing with DS but the concept aborting children with DS. If you wish to separate the two perhaps a different thread strictly on DS would be best.


  • #69
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    Your argument about abortion have nothing specific about DS. Therefore your generalising about all abortion. Seems to be a topic that mentions DS is being very specific. You're not.


  • #70
    prinz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    CerebralCortex wrote: »
    Proof by assertion..

    At least have the conviction to stand over your position.
    CerebralCortex wrote: »
    No I'm not. You're misrepresenting me again. I'm arguing that abortion is okay to a point, certainly not in the later stages especially if that means suffering...

    Killing is the causing the death of a living organism. A fetus is a living organism with a heartbeat of it's own from about week six or so.
    CerebralCortex wrote: »
    I'm not, that's your thing..

    Well you are as long as you keep painting abortion, especially in the case of disability as a 'few cells' nothing more.
    CerebralCortex wrote: »
    Well their brains are dying, that's where the person resides, the person you know. Yes euthanasia should be an option for them, in fact people do opt to be euthanised so they can die with dignity.

    ..and if they can't make that decision for themselves?


  • #71
    Hogzy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,544 ✭✭✭Hogzy


    Thread needs a poll.


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  • #72
    Gearheart
    Closed Accounts Posts: 81 ✭✭Gearheart


    If my family was going to I think I would sitting here, but come the actual time to make the decision i'm not sure if I could.


  • #73
    prinz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    BostonB wrote: »
    Your argument about abortion have nothing specific about DS. Therefore your generalising about all abortion. Seems to be a topic that mentions DS is being very specific. You're not.

    The first post that veered into abortion in general and away from DS was this one..

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=74149454&postcount=60


  • #74
    CerebralCortex
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,811 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    prinz wrote: »
    At least have the conviction to stand over your position.

    Killing is the causing the death of a living organism. A fetus is a living organism with a heartbeat of it's own from about week six or so.

    A cell is a living organism but you don't have crisis every time you scratch yourself or do you?
    prinz wrote: »
    Well you are as long as you keep painting abortion, especially in the case of disability as a 'few cells' nothing more.

    I advocate early term abortion.
    prinz wrote: »
    ..and if they can't make that decision for themselves?

    Palliative care is the only option, unless you can show that brain is so destroyed that the person is gone.


  • #75
    prinz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    CerebralCortex wrote: »
    A cell is a living organism but you don't have crisis every time you scratch yourself or do you?

    So you accept now that abortion is killing?
    CerebralCortex wrote: »
    I advocate early term abortion..

    ..and how early can you get a definitive diagnosis of Down's Syndrome?


  • #76
    CerebralCortex
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,811 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    prinz wrote: »
    So you accept now that abortion is killing?

    Yes but unlike you I don't have dogmatic, black and white perspective on the matter.
    prinz wrote: »
    ..and how early can you get a definitive diagnosis of Down's Syndrome?

    I don't know, but if there parents could know as soon as possible the more options. I'm also an advocate of genetic engineering and before you say it I'm not a Nazi.


  • #77
    prinz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    CerebralCortex wrote: »
    But unlike you I don't have dogmatic, black and white perspective on the matter..

    So yes.
    CerebralCortex wrote: »
    I don't know, but if there parents could know as soon as possible the more options. I'm also an advocate of genetic engineering and before you say it I'm not a Nazi.

    Of course not. Nothing remotely similar...


  • #78
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    This comes down to dogma on abortion on both sides.

    Personally I'm a fence sitter and go either way depending on the exact situation, and can't look at it as black and white as you want to. Having been in similar situations, as discussed, I can't see it as B&W. As such I'm going to leave ye to it.


  • #79
    CerebralCortex
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,811 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    prinz wrote: »
    So yes.



    Of course not. Nothing remotely similar...

    I updated my post.


  • #80
    prinz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    CerebralCortex wrote: »
    I updated my post.

    Great, so when I said abortion is killing, and you responded with "proof by assertion" what you actually meant is 'yes, I agree, abortion is killing'. Now that we got that much we can move on to killing the weak, do you dispute that the unborn (at whatever stage of gestation) is weak? Or is weakness only something that comes with the passing of years?
    CerebralCortex wrote: »
    Essentially when a woman conceives a person doesn't suddenly appear, it takes years for that person to grow.

    Presumably a newborn child in that case isn't a person, and isn't worthy of protection? Similarly to how someone so ravaged with Alzheimer's that..
    Palliative care is the only option, unless you can show that brain is so destroyed that the person is gone.

    ..and once the 'person is gone' what then? Lethal injection? Bullet?


  • #81
    CerebralCortex
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,811 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    prinz wrote: »
    Great, so when I said abortion is killing, and you responded with "proof by assertion" what you actually meant is 'yes, I agree, abortion is killing'.

    You got me!


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  • #82
    Morag
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,427 ✭✭✭Morag


    I would, it is a burden I would not want and would not want to pass on to my children when I would be not able to care for such a child. If other people have the compassion and resources and which to have and raise children who have downs fair play to them, they are better people then me in that regard.


  • #83
    alex73
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭alex73


    Moon Indigo wrote: »
    Bit strong there Alex73. I hope you didn't read my post and think I was saying that because that was not the point. I personally have nothing against DS or those who are DS or any other disability. The world takes and needs all types to make it go around.


    I obviously detest abortion and societies pro "choice" attitude to people who abort Down Syndrome babies. See my related Thread.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showt...p?t=2056324984


    But Legalised abortion is a ploy by the state to avoid disabled children being born, in the UK over 90% of Down Syndrome babies are aborted.


  • #84
    alex73
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭alex73


    Sharrow wrote: »
    I would, it is a burden I would not want and would not want to pass on to my children when I would be not able to care for such a child. If other people have the compassion and resources and which to have and raise children who have downs fair play to them, they are better people then me in that regard.


    If you don't want to raise a sick child. Then don't choose to have children at all. Killing them is not the answer.


  • #85
    CerebralCortex
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,811 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    alex73 wrote: »
    If you don't want to raise a sick child. Then don't choose to have children at all. Killing them is not the answer.

    Nobody is killing children! Just aborting tissue.


  • #86
    alex73
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭alex73


    CerebralCortex wrote: »
    Nobody is killing children! Just aborting tissue.

    Sure... Just because Hilter said Jews were not human did not make it so. So with a Disabled child in the womb, its a Child.

    Society can call them Tissue, but they are Children with the potential to love.


  • #87
    cursai
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,915 ✭✭✭cursai


    CerebralCortex wrote: »
    Nobody is killing children! Just aborting tissue.

    Nice to meet you mother nature!


  • #88
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    alex73 wrote: »
    Sure... Just because Hilter said Jews were not human did not make it so. So with a Disabled child in the womb, its a Child.

    Society can call them Tissue, but they are Children with the potential to love.

    You are comparing abortion to Hilter's extermination of the jews :o

    That's what wrong with society, people with extreme views trying to push their BS onto other people.


  • #89
    Morag
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,427 ✭✭✭Morag


    alex73 wrote: »
    If you don't want to raise a sick child. Then don't choose to have children at all. Killing them is not the answer.

    Abortion is choosing not to have children.
    Contraception is never 100% effective and if I found that I was in my late 40s to early 50s and was pregnant and the tests came back positive for down syndrome I would have an abortion. There are adults who have Downs in my extended family and I have seen the toll such a child takes on the family.


  • #90
    alex73
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭alex73


    Sharrow wrote: »
    Abortion is choosing not to have children.
    Contraception is never 100% effective and if I found that I was in my late 40s to early 50s and was pregnant and the tests came back positive for down syndrome I would have an abortion. There are adults who have Downs in my extended family and I have seen the toll such a child takes on the family.

    Well there starts the whole debate, I have seen famlies suffer more with autistics kids (2 in family) than with downs. A girl i know with Downs worked with me, she lived a very independent life, they are no idiots.

    a test at 12 weeks does not tell you what the person is going to be. "aborting" the child shows how much respect society real has for the disabled.


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  • #91
    DARK-KNIGHT
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,278 ✭✭✭✭DARK-KNIGHT


    harr wrote: »
    Hi
    As a parent of a child with DS i would respect any couples right to have a abortion if they found out early enough,we often spoke about this before we had kids and we felt that we would have been unable to cope with a child who had special needs.
    None of my wife's scans showed anything was wrong with the baby so it came as a big shock when we found out,so glad now that we never found out our little man is the best in the world and is starting pre school next week.
    Its not the case that if a scan shows signs of DS your offered a abortion in Ireland,I had a friend who was told that there was a high chance his baby had DS but the little girl was fine.I hope the people who left some of the disgusting comments here are just trolling and looking for a rise out of people if not they are very narrow mined people.
    Well said !!!!!!!! Glad to hear your little son is doing well too!!

    I respect people's choices but I ask anyone that is a parent and loves their kids could you really terminate?? I would rather have hugs and kisses from one of my kids disabled or not rather than planning their demise because they would put our noses out of joint!!!

    Believe it or not DS kids will love you the same as any child and they are your children you will treasure them


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