Would you abort a child with Down Syndrome?

texidub

alex73 wrote: »

a test at 12 weeks does not tell you what the person is going to be.

This is a very good point. Similarly, there is no scan that will predict the 'quality of life' to be enjoyed down the line by a so-called 'normal' embryo. their lives may be awful.

'Quality of life' is a concept with certain normative, conformist assumptions about what the good life is built into it.

Who is to say that person with DS has a lower quality of life than someone without?

Dancing, listening to music, being good-natured and kind... some people with DS have a higher quality of life than so-called 'normal' people, i.e. the rest of us. Some don't.

Nobody's perfect. And no amount of running away --whether it be via social exclusion, abortion, ridicule, or avoidance-- can hide that fact.

Do you have a higher quality of life than me? Do I have a higher quality of life than you? And you? And how about you?

And who is to say that parents of a child with DS might not end up leading better lives than if they had only had so-called normal children?

The scan may very well inform the parents that their child is likely to be born with DS. But we still don't know how things will pan out for that person, or their parents.

So, for me, the question becomes, is abortion an appropriate response to the unknown? If in doubt.. abort.. really? Seems kind of fearful. The kind of fear that --in some people at least-- gets expressed as a kind of clinical harshness.

I'm not against abortion in itself. I am just not convinced by quality of life arguments.

EDIT: Sorry.. to answer your question: No I wouldn't react to my fear that way. (Nor would I condemn those that do. They are simply the product of their genes and environment.. like the rest of us.. like DS people too.)

CerebralCortex

I wish there was a thumbs down option.

alex73

@ texidub Post 92. I read so much the argument... "I would not abort but I respect other peoples choice to"... Its so sad so see the intrinsic objective value of a Child reduced to this. The false arguments that have brainwashed modern society into believing its perfectly fine to abort. Problem is that when people object strongly to abortion they are considered right-wing religious nutters,, but Humanity is not left or right, its about the objective reality of the value of the person, value of a Child, Any child, that has sadly been lost.

Over 90% of DS babies in the UK are aborted... Goes to show you the value that is placed on them. I heard a comment... Oh she had to have the baby because she is Catholic.. Crazy. A Child is a Child and transcends religion and opinions.


Also... the search for the Perfect child does not mean a happy adult.

Morag

That scan will say the likely hood and the amino test can confirm it, then it's no longer a possibility but a surety. Yes autism is another type of struggle for parents and famlies but there are a hell of a lot more which can be done for children who are on the spectrum when those who have downs.
I know I already have a child who is on the autism spectrum and that is another factor into why I would make that choice.

Blisterman

alex73 wrote: »

But Legalised abortion is a ploy by the state to avoid disabled children being born, in the UK over 90% of Down Syndrome babies are aborted.

No they're not! The actual statistic is 90% of fetuese tested positive for Down syndrome are aborted, which is a hugely different statistic, as it's unlikely you'd subject yourself to testing unless you were likely to have an abortion.

texidub

@alex73, Gotcha. But I try not to judge others for thinking differently to me. (The stupid fools *cackles* )

Seriously though, I don't see anything incompatible between choosing not to abort and tolerating other people's decisions. No need for me to be absolutist about my actions and beliefs...

alex73

Blisterman wrote: »

No they're not! The actual statistic is 90% of fetuese tested positive for Down syndrome are aborted, which is a hugely different statistic, as it's unlikely you'd subject yourself to testing unless you were likely to have an abortion.

Look... the test is run of the mill for Women in the UK. its not offered in Ireland because there (thanfully) is no abortion, but you can get it done in certain hospitals.

During our 2nd Pregnancy Doctors said due to a illness my wife had that our baby would probably be deformed. They offered if we wanted to have tests done. Obviously we didn't bother, we were still going to have her anyway. Baby turned out to be fine, she had large red birthmarks everywhere, which did make my wife Cry. She is 5 today, Perfectly normal, and the marks are nearly gone except for a small one on her arm.

In the UK she would have been advised to terminate. Its a fact.

Da Shins Kelly

I'd be fairly libertarian, so I wouldn't really object to someone aborting a baby on the grounds of Down's. At the end of the day, it's the parent's right to choose, and I'm a staunch believer in people's right to choose what's best for themselves. If a couple really don't believe that they could cope with a Down's Syndrome child, I don't really see why they should be condemned for doing what they think is best for themselves and their future child. There are people who would never abort their child no matter what, however some people can't deal with it. There are very serious moral issues surrounding aborting a disabled child, and also around raising one (who looks after the child after the parents are gone, what sort of quality of life is the child going to have, etc.). It's a very serious issue, and wouldn't be inclined to judge anyone who is on either side of the fence.

alex73

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

I'd be fairly libertarian, so I wouldn't really object to someone aborting a baby on the grounds of Down's. At the end of the day, it's the parent's right to choose, and I'm a staunch believer in people's right to choose what's best for themselves. If a couple really don't believe that they could cope with a Down's Syndrome child, I don't really see why they should be condemned for doing what they think is best for themselves and their future child. There are people who would never abort their child no matter what, however some people can't deal with it. There are very serious moral issues surrounding aborting a disabled child, and also around raising one (who looks after the child after the parents are gone, what sort of quality of life is the child going to have, etc.). It's a very serious issue, and wouldn't be inclined to judge anyone who is on either side of the fence.

You make a Downs Syndrome person look like an idiot. Many lead long independent lives, they are no locked up in institutions any more.

Also if you want to be a parent, its not "Themselves" its about loving the child, no matter who comes.

The only choice I offer Parents is weather or not they want to have kids or not. If you want kids, be ready to accept the Good, Bad or ugly.

Blisterman

alex73 wrote: »

Look... the test is run of the mill for Women in the UK. its not offered in Ireland because there (thanfully) is no abortion, but you can get it done in certain hospitals.

Well according to this http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2009/oct/27/downs-syndrome-babies-motherhood
There were 1,843 diagnoses of Down's syndrome in England and Wales in 2007-2008 and 743 live births. Even assuming that every one of those diagnosed but not born were aborted. the actual rate is ~60% Far lower than 90%.

alex73

Blisterman wrote: »

Well according to this http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2009/oct/27/downs-syndrome-babies-motherhood
There were 1,843 diagnoses of Down's syndrome in England and Wales in 2007-2008 and 743 live births. Even assuming that every one of those diagnosed but not born were aborted. the actual rate is ~60% Far lower than 90%.

90% or 60%. according to above 1100 Babies were aborted. And some around 24 weeks. these are usually families who want a Child,,, but just don't want THAT child. It Shows the lack of value the UK society places on a Child that is not "Normal".

texidub

CerebralCortex wrote: »

I wish there was a thumbs down option.

I wish I could fly. What's your point though?

CathyMoran

As I have said before I got the nuchal scan but one of the biggest things that I was scared of was that if the child had downs they would have a greater chance of miscarriage.

texidub

CathyMoran wrote: »

As I have said before I got the nuchal scan but one of the biggest things that I was scared of was that if the child had downs they would have a greater chance of miscarriage.

I didn't know there was a greater chance of miscarriage with DS. Must be scary to be in that position.

Don't think anyone could give out to someone for having the scan, could they? I mean, what sort of parents wouldn't want to know as much as possible about their baby as soon as possible? Doesn't necessarily even have to lead into an abortion debate (although of course it does).

very

as hard as it would be to do, i think i would. But if i actually went through it im not sure. I mean, nobody really gets hurt

Da Shins Kelly

alex73 wrote: »

You make a Downs Syndrome person look like an idiot. Many lead long independent lives, they are no locked up in institutions any more.

Also if you want to be a parent, its not "Themselves" its about loving the child, no matter who comes.

The only choice I offer Parents is weather or not they want to have kids or not. If you want kids, be ready to accept the Good, Bad or ugly.

I don't think they're "idiots", don't put words in my mouth.

I know people who are raising children with Down's, I have a close friend whose younger sister has Down's. They are getting along fine, but have expressed worry about the child's future. I did not suggest that they would be locked up in institutions. There's more to a quality of life than just being able to live independently. My friend has on numerous occasions expressed her deep worry that her sister will not be accepted socially at school, for example. It's not just about being independent. There's more to life than that, for everyone.

Also, of course being a parent is about loving the child. However, some people may feel that they are doing the best thing by aborting a Down's child. Some people can't cope, and if someone feels that they can't give a Down's child the best quality of life then, in my opinion, they are doing an even greater disservice to that child if they choose to have it and give it a shambolic upbringing. That's not even getting to the fact that there are some people who do not plan to get pregnant, but through accident end up in that situation.

I find the tone of your messages extremely crass, by the way.

The Princess Bride

Am curious as to why OP choose Down's Syndrome in the thread and not any one of the other hundred's of syndromes- some of which are more life/living limiting than Down's syndrome.

alex73

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

I don't think they're "idiots", don't put words in my mouth.

I know people who are raising children with Down's, I have a close friend whose younger sister has Down's. They are getting along fine, but have expressed worry about the child's future. I did not suggest that they would be locked up in institutions. There's more to a quality of life than just being able to live independently. My friend has on numerous occasions expressed her deep worry that her sister will not be accepted socially at school, for example. It's not just about being independent. There's more to life than that, for everyone.

Also, of course being a parent is about loving the child. However, some people may feel that they are doing the best thing by aborting a Down's child. Some people can't cope, and if someone feels that they can't give a Down's child the best quality of life then, in my opinion, they are doing an even greater disservice to that child if they choose to have it and give it a shambolic upbringing. That's not even getting to the fact that there are some people who do not plan to get pregnant, but through accident end up in that situation.

I find the tone of your messages extremely crass, by the way.

People can't coup with a disabled child.. Poor things.. Solution pass a law allowing them to abort the child, remove the real instrinsic objective value of this child.

Aborting them is an insult, its wrong.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIcbFrt4F_c&sns=em

p1akuw47h5r3it

In my opinion abortion being illegal is an attack on the liberties of citizens of a whatever country in question. Therefore I believe abortion should be legal. I think it is up to individual people to have the choice, if some people feel abortion is wrong, if ever pregnant they should simply not have an abortion.

CerebralCortex

texidub wrote: »

CerebralCortex wrote: »

I wish there was a thumbs down option.

I wish I could fly. What's your point though?

It would be nice to know whether people like prinz and alex73 are representative of the majority. I sincerely hope they're not.

silverharp

It can only be the parents choice. Who's opinion matters more, the parents who have thought about the consequences for the next 50 years or some randomer who has an "opinion" but gets to move on with their life. We had the test done but it wasnt an issue, but yes we would have aborted if a serious genetic issue was discovered.

vibe666

i've always been pro-choice as far as abortion goes and i had also always maintained that i wasn't a strong enough person to be able to cope with bringing up a child with disabilities and that if & when my wife became pregnant that we would need to look at the possibility of an abortion if something bad showed up in scans.

the morning that all changed was the morning my wife handed me the pregnancy test that showed she was pregnant. she was only 6-8 weeks at that stage, but it didn't matter one little bit that the baby was only the size of a pip, it was our child and that was the end of it.

we decided there and then that this tiny little insignificant thing was our child and we wee going to do everything in our power to love and care for him/ her no matter what.

as of right now, we have a wonderful, healthy 3 week old boy who is perfect in every way and we are so grateful every single day for that, but i know now that even if he had any physical or mental disabilities showing up in any of the scans or tests before he was born that it wouldn't make the slightest bit of difference to how much we love him.

for me at least, what you think you'd do when you become a parent and what you will actually do when you are a parent (even of a tiny little foetus) are two very different things because the inception of your parenthood changes your mindset so completely.

vibe666

CerebralCortex wrote: »

It would be nice to know whether people like prinz and alex73 are representative of the majority. I sincerely hope they're not.

alex73 wasn't actually serious in his first post in the thread. did you read his 2nd one directly below it?

alex73 wrote: »

See my thread on this topic..http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056324984

By the way I have highest respect for anyone with the condition. They are amazing, loving and careing.

prinz

rarnes1 wrote: »

You are comparing abortion to Hilter's extermination of the jews That's what wrong with society, people with extreme views trying to push their BS onto other people.

It's only a matter of timing, and some mental gymnastics to convince yourself it's somehow totally different. Look at the arguments.... the resources people with disabilities take up, certain people are less worthy of life, personhood depends on full consciousness... what's different about that and Nazi's Aktion T4 and saying 'certain people wouldn't have x quality of life therefore it's ok to kill them'?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_T4

Once again the only difference is a matter of timing.

very wrote: »

as hard as it would be to do, i think i would. But if i actually went through it im not sure. I mean, nobody really gets hurt

Unborn child not get hurt no? Or are we back to the 'it's not really a person' line of thought?

DanDan6592 wrote: »

In my opinion abortion being illegal is an attack on the liberties of citizens of a whatever country in question. Therefore I believe abortion should be legal. I think it is up to individual people to have the choice, if some people feel abortion is wrong, if ever pregnant they should simply not have an abortion.

What happens to the liberties of the unborn? They don't count? I think torture is wrong, now I could simply not torture anybody but is that a good enough reason not to object to it being legalised? I belueve the death penalty is wrong... do I throw my hands in the air and say 'ah well, I won't be executing anyone personally, so it's all good'....or am I allowed to have an opinion on the society's approach?

F.A.

I note that nobody mentioned yesterday's news about the utter lack of support for disabled children when it comes to education. RTE interviewed two mothers whose children have Down Syndrome - and their children will only be getting one lesson a day. One mother even reported how difficult the family's life has been, how they keep hoping it'll get better - but how it just doesn't.

It's very easy to be up in arms against parents deciding to abort a child because of disability - but where exactly is the support these children (and their parents) in particular need?? Typical hypocrisy: intervene when it suits and is cheap (no abortion), let them fight on their own when it doesn't and isn't (education). Makes me sick to the stomach.

Asphyxia

I worked with children with Special Needs for a good few years and I can honestly say I wouldn't be able to abort them. They are so loving and just because they need some extra care doesn't mean they can't live a life like you or me they are still human beings after all.

Da Shins Kelly

alex73 wrote: »

Aborting them is an insult, its wrong.

Interfering with people's right to choose what they do with their own bodies and lives because you can't get down off your high horse is an insult and is wrong.

CathyMoran

Asphyxia wrote: »

I worked with children with Special Needs for a good few years and I can honestly say I wouldn't be able to abort them. They are so loving and just because they need some extra care doesn't mean they can't live a life like you or me they are still human beings after all.

When I was a young girl one of my friends had Downs Syndrome - I must admit that it has affected my views ever since.

catch me if you can

No i wouldnt. I lost my precious unborn baby to a miscarriage. If he or she were here now alive and had downs i would be proudest mother ever.

alex73

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

Interfering with people's right to choose what they do with their own bodies and lives because you can't get down off your high horse is an insult and is wrong.

If it was only "their" body it would be fine. it would be their decision. Deciding to end another childs lifes is immoral.