Should people who cycle on footpaths be prosecuted?

Thinkingaboutit · 30-08-2011 10:27AM

Also whatever contractor is responsible for that spray on orange crap found in a lot of places. Horrible.

Iwannahurl · 30-08-2011 10:30AM

Some points I feel need making.

1. Dealing with footpath cycling does not necessarily require prosecution in all cases. That would indeed involve a lot of police and court time, and probably would not be appreciated by judges, or by the general public if it led to clogging up of the justice system. However, Garda officers can caution people, for example, and take their name etc. What's wrong with a bit of old-fashioned reprimand and opportunistic road safety promotion?

2. There is no "system" in this context. Discretion is often just a euphemism for "couldn't be arsed" IMO.

3. Footpath cycling is an Irish solution to an Irish problem, I reckon. Instead of creating good conditions for cycling -- through engineering, educational, environmental and enforcement measures -- we plough ahead with policies that promote car use and car dependence, while letting cyclists fend for themselves a lot of the time. Catering for cyclists requires planning and resources. Who can be arsed with that when it's much easier to ignore them while they cycle on footpaths through dangerous junctions and up one-way streets? As long as they don't get in the way of cars, what does it matter? This is also the reason why AGS and local authorities are so lax about tackling footpath parking, IMO. Footpaths serve as handy extra road space for motorists (and cyclists) so neither the enforcers nor the footpath abusers see any pressing need to radically change the status quo. Presumably pedestrians are well down the pecking order.

4. Perhaps AGS might have a credibility problem when it comes to enforcement of laws relating to the use and abuse of footpaths?

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_JY_9Pnqs9bU/S7POi0WV5fI/AAAAAAAACwE/qBMTDXLmuCk/s1600/IMG_6548

5. Irish cultural attitudes to law enforcement and compliance are a symptoms of our post-colonial adolescence, IMO. Equating enforcement for the greater good of society with individualistic notions of the "nanny state" is an example of how we have yet to grow up. Mutual coercion mutually agreed upon is a sign of civilisation, IMO, and its aim is the greater good of public welfare not notional individual freedoms. That said, I don't think footpath cycling is the most pressing problem in that context! Just musing, TBH...

goingpostal · 30-08-2011 10:34AM

People who cycle on the path at the same speed they would on a road, with no consideration for pedestrians, should be given on the spot fines. Cyclists who show consideration for pedestrians, and slow down when passing them on a path, should be left off. Gardai should be allowed to use their discretion, and take into account such factors as time of day, how unfriendly the adjacent road is to cyclists, width of path etc. No hard and fast, zero tolerance rule is going to work. I have passed garda cars on numerous occasions while cycling on the path and they have never done anything to me. I doubt it if the gardai are too fond of cyclists using paths, but I would say they are even less fond of scraping cyclists, who have been mowed down by cars, from the road. Bottom line is: a car travelling at speed hits a cyclist, most likely outcome: death or very serious injuries for the cyclist. A cyclist travelling at speed on a path hits a pedestrian, most likely outcome: bruising, possible broken bone(s), death is a very remote possibility. A considerate cyclist on a path isn't going to hit a pedestrian, regardless of the fear the pedestrian feels.

Iwannahurl · 30-08-2011 10:38AM

petethedrummer wrote: »

Should planners of bad transport facilities be prosecuted?

"Planners" should be sacked -- or prosecuted in the worst cases -- for doing what they often do, which is not actually planning anything.

galwaycyclist · 30-08-2011 10:38AM

goingpostal wrote: »

A cyclist travelling at speed on a path hits a pedestrian, most likely outcome: bruising, possible broken bone(s), death is a very remote possibility. A considerate cyclist on a path isn't going to hit a pedestrian, regardless of the fear the pedestrian feels.

Yes but if that person is an older person with osteoporosis, they may not be killed, but any such impact means an end to any independent existence. I know of at least one such situation in Galway where older people feel like prisoners in their own homes because of footpath cycling.

tomasrojo · 30-08-2011 10:41AM

goingpostal wrote: »

I doubt it if the gardai are too fond of cyclists using paths, but I would say they are even less fond of scraping cyclists, who have been mowed down by cars, from the road.

I really doubt that this is the thought process. Just from the statistics, it would be a rare Garda who would come across seriously injured cyclists with any frequency.

They just don't think it's a big deal, on the whole. That's the simplest explanation.

goingpostal · 30-08-2011 10:45AM

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Yes but if that person is an older person with osteoporosis, they may not be killed, but any such impact means an end to any independent existence. I know of at least one such situation in Galway where older people feel like prisoners in their own homes because of footpath cycling.

That is true. Fear rules for everyone using our roads in a sustainable manner. $500 per barrel crude oil will solve this entire problem. Less cars on the roads will make the roads safer for cyclists, who will no longer be forced onto paths out of mortal fear. This countries' utter, blind dependence on the internal combustion engine and private motorised vehicles, to the exclusion of almost all other transport strategies, is going to come back to bite us on the ass like a 500lb gorilla. And sooner than we think.

Iwannahurl · 30-08-2011 10:48AM

tomasrojo wrote: »

I really doubt that this is the thought process. Just from the statistics, it would be a rare Garda who would come across seriously injured cyclists with any frequency.

They just don't think it's a big deal, on the whole. That's the simplest explanation.

There are lots of things that they don't regard as a big deal. It shouldn't always be their call. If AGS were more proactive about a range of road safety issues, such as urban speeding, the roads would be safer for cyclists.

To what extent has the Dublin City 30 kph zone been enforced by AGS?

Thinkingaboutit · 30-08-2011 10:49AM

Anyhow courts are stupendously backed up. There are things that cause greater harm. I think a lot of cycle lanes are created so that some Council Official can show a nice powerpoint presentation of all the impressive things he has done. Calling it tokenism insults tokens.

BostonB · 30-08-2011 10:50AM

I assume people includes kids, so this is unworkable IMO.

There is a world of a difference between someone going down an empty footpath at slow speed vs someone barrelling through a busy foot path at breakneck speed.

Captain Havoc · 30-08-2011 10:51AM

goingpostal wrote: »

That is true. Fear rules for everyone using our roads in a sustainable manner. $500 per barrel crude oil will solve this entire problem. Less cars on the roads will make the roads safer for cyclists, who will no longer be forced onto paths out of mortal fear. This countries' utter, blind dependence on the internal combustion engine and private motorised vehicles, to the exclusion of almost all other transport strategies, is going to come back to bite us on the ass like a 500lb gorilla. And sooner than we think.

I'm going to have to disagree, I have to drive 50km to work every day for a low wage, how do you think I could afford to do that. I've been looking for a low paid job in Kilkenny or higher paid one else where for the last year and zip. If you raise the price to $500 per barrel I would be looking at paying around €150 - €200 per week in petrol. Just learn to cycle safe.

goingpostal · 30-08-2011 10:51AM

tomasrojo wrote: »

I really doubt that this is the thought process. Just from the statistics, it would be a rare Garda who would come across seriously injured cyclists with any frequency.

They just don't think it's a big deal, on the whole. That's the simplest explanation.

You are probably right. Plus, it isn't easy for a garda car to apprehend a cyclist. Bikes are far more maneuverable than cars. If a garda car flashes his lights or sirens at me, I am gone like a shot and good luck trying to catch me. A garda on a bike or on foot is the only way to apprehend footpath cyclists.

One day, I was cycling along the path, and saw a garda walking towards me. He had a normal jacket on, but my 4000euro lasered eyesight spotted the light blue shirt/navy tie combo at a distance. I immediately dismounted and walked towards him pushing the bike along, as if nothing had happened. Just as I was passing him, he gave me a very friendly "Hello" and was wearing a big grin. I returned the salute, and started laughing. One of the funnier incidents I have had cycling.

tomasrojo · 30-08-2011 10:59AM

Iwannahurl wrote: »

There are lots of things that they don't regard as a big deal. It shouldn't always be their call. If AGS were more proactive about a range of road safety issues, such as urban speeding, the roads would be safer for cyclists.

To what extent has the Dublin City 30 kph zone been enforced by AGS?

To be fair, I'm not saying it isn't a big deal. I just don't think that they are projecting an alternative universe in which the footpath cyclist is a road smear.

goingpostal · 30-08-2011 11:00AM

Captain Havoc wrote: »

I'm going to have to disagree, I have to drive 50km to work every day for a low wage, how do you think I could afford to do that. I've been looking for a low paid job in Kilkenny or higher paid one else where for the last year and zip. If you raise the price to $500 per barrel I would be looking at paying around €150 - €200 per week in petrol. Just learn to cycle safe.

It won't be me, or our government, raising the price to $500 per barrel. It will be world markets doing that. The end of cheap oil is already here. The price of petrol is only going in one direction, the only question is how soon will we be paying $500 per barrel to OPEC. Our countries entire transport system and strategy is built on the belief that there is an endless supply of cheap Saudi crude oil under the desert. There isn't. And that, my friends, is what is going to ultimately solve the problem of cyclists using footpaths in this country. In ten years, we'll have the fecking motorways to ourselves!!

Iwannahurl · 30-08-2011 11:02AM

goingpostal wrote: »

You are probably right. Plus, it isn't easy for a garda car to apprehend a cyclist. Bikes are far more maneuverable than cars. If a garda car flashes his lights or sirens at me, I am gone like a shot and good luck trying to catch me. A garda on a bike or on foot is the only way to apprehend footpath cyclists.

One day, I was cycling along the path, and saw a garda walking towards me. He had a normal jacket on, but my 4000euro lasered eyesight spotted the light blue shirt/navy tie combo at a distance. I immediately dismounted and walked towards him pushing the bike along, as if nothing had happened. Just as I was passing him, he gave me a very friendly "Hello" and was wearing a big grin. I returned the salute, and started laughing. One of the funnier incidents I have had cycling.

1. If the speed and manoeuvrability of bicycles are possible reasons for AGS not apprehending footpath cyclists, what might explain routine Garda failure to tackle motorists who obstruct footpaths by parking on them?

2. Can you identify the location where you had your memorable encounter with the Garda? Just curious.

Iwannahurl · 30-08-2011 11:11AM

goingpostal wrote: »

It won't be me, or our government, raising the price to $500 per barrel. It will be world markets doing that. The end of cheap oil is already here. The price of petrol is only going in one direction, the only question is how soon will we be paying $500 per barrel to OPEC. Our countries entire transport system and strategy is built on the belief that there is an endless supply of cheap Saudi crude oil under the desert. There isn't. And that, my friends, is what is going to ultimately solve the problem of cyclists using footpaths in this country. In ten years, we'll have the fecking motorways to ourselves!!

The International Energy Agency expressed the view that "Peak Oil" occurred five years ago in 2006.

http://www.energybulletin.net/stories/2010-11-11/iea-acknowledges-peak-oil

I think we'll find that in the coming years we in Ireland may begin to see the folly of the car dependence we willingly (and not so willingly) embraced over the last three or four decades.

seamus · 30-08-2011 11:12AM

goingpostal wrote: »

This countries' utter, blind dependence on the internal combustion engine and private motorised vehicles, to the exclusion of almost all other transport strategies, is going to come back to bite us on the ass like a 500lb gorilla.

To be fair, it has already. If you cycle into Dublin city this week, you'll see the schools traffic. Compared with the traffic in the 90's and early 2000's, the traffic at the moment is practically free-flowing. We all know that the problem is that we practically invested nothing in public transport in the 70s and 80's. Rail and Tram lines ripped up, busses forced to fight with the rest of the traffic, we were a shambles.
Thankfully I think we've learned that such cutbacks were the wrong move. The problem is that the cutbacks ingrained an attitude into the Irish that a car is an essential piece of kit and people without one are somehow lacking.

Indeed display any criticism of our dependence on cars and the first responses will always be, "We don't all live in Dublin, you know" and, "A car is essential in the country". When did a bicycle stop being a viable way to take the 5/10km trip to the local town to meet somebody? Or even as a way to get home from the pub?

(Sorry, miles off topic).

I can't say that cyclists on the footpath has ever been an issue for me. I don't recall any incidents where I was even nearly in a serious collision with one and it clearly doesn't occur enough for me to give it any kind of consideration.
But I'm sure there are hot spots where it happens all the time for whatever reason.

The main problem in Dublin City is as tomasrojo says - there are a number of direct routes which cannot be undertaken by cars due to pedestrian bridges, pedestrianised areas, one-way streets, etc, but which can or could be easily taken by bicycles if the appropriate legislation was in place and appropriate cycling routes marked out.

Captain Havoc · 30-08-2011 11:15AM

goingpostal wrote: »

It won't be me, or our government, raising the price to $500 per barrel.

Misread your post, I might have jumped in there a bit quick.

It will be world markets doing that. The end of cheap oil is already here. The price of petrol is only going in one direction, the only question is how soon will we be paying $500 per barrel to OPEC.

I've been paying less at the pumps in the last couple of months.

Our countries entire transport system and strategy is built on the belief that there is an endless supply of cheap Saudi crude oil under the desert. There isn't. And that, my friends, is what is going to ultimately solve the problem of cyclists using footpaths in this country. In ten years, we'll have the fecking motorways to ourselves!!

That's what they want you to believe

goingpostal · 30-08-2011 11:15AM

Iwannahurl wrote: »

1. If the speed and manoeuvrability of bicycles are possible reasons for AGS not apprehending footpath cyclists, what might explain routine Garda failure to tackle motorists who obstruct footpaths by parking on them?

2. Can you identify the location where you had your memorable encounter with the Garda? Just curious.

1.) Only a fool would try to deny that inertia and donuts play a huge part in AGS failure to enforce road safety ordinances.

2.) Limerick City Centre, on the Dock Road. He was off-duty at the time, I'd say, he had his own jacket on over his uniform. Probably heading off for his dinner, it happened at lunchtime.

Lumen · 30-08-2011 11:19AM

seamus wrote: »

When did a bicycle stop being a viable way to take the 5/10km trip to the local town to meet somebody? Or even as a way to get home from the pub?

We should start a campaign for bike racks outside pubs.

clod71 · 30-08-2011 11:20AM

if it's called footpath and not wheelpath there must be a reason, that is for sure. Having said that I think common sense here should be used... Prosecution in every single case would not be a fair solution either... Certainly children should be allowed cycling on footpaths when there are no dedicated paths for cyclists.
I would SURELY cycle on the footpath with my child (using a bell to warn pedestrians???) with the risk to be fined or even jailed if that's the case rather than putting his/her life at risk on the road.

goingpostal · 30-08-2011 11:23AM

Captain Havoc wrote: »

I've been paying less at the pumps in the last couple of months.

I was paying approx. 1.20 per litre of petrol last summer. I have been paying an average 1.50 per litre at the pumps this summer. That is an increase of 25% in 12 months. I wouldn't be surprised if I am paying 2 euro per litre next summer. My car is getting dustier and dustier, and my investment in cycling gear is increasing.

If Saudi Arabia allows women to drive, get ready for 3 euro per litre petrol, at least. They subsidize the cost of petrol at the pumps in the Kingdom, drivers there pay 50cent (US) per gallon, regardless of the price of a barrel of crude. Allow women in Saudi Arabia to drive, and you double the number of drivers on the Kingdoms roads, and the pace at which the Saudi's cannabilise their oil exports increases, leading to Sean and Mary paying higher prices at Irish pumps. Should I hide from the feminists now?

tomasrojo · 30-08-2011 11:26AM

As Conan O'Brien wrote:

I am really experiencing “pain at the pump.” I am also really hurting from the price of gas.

goingpostal · 30-08-2011 11:34AM

Iwannahurl wrote: »

The International Energy Agency expressed the view that "Peak Oil" occurred five years ago in 2006.

http://www.energybulletin.net/stories/2010-11-11/iea-acknowledges-peak-oil

I think we'll find that in the coming years we in Ireland may begin to see the folly of the car dependence we willingly (and not so willingly) embraced over the last three or four decades.

I find the IEA's estimates, in the graph at the top of that link, for crude oil fields yet to be found and fields yet to be developed, ludicrously and laughably optimistic.

previous user · 30-08-2011 11:37AM

If we're going to prosecute cyclists who occasionally go on foothpaths can
we also prosecute pedestrians who walk on designated cycle paths, i've seen it happen many a time and didn't say anything because i'm not petty.

doozerie · 30-08-2011 11:52AM

goingpostal wrote:

Fear rules for everyone using our roads in a sustainable manner. $500 per barrel crude oil will solve this entire problem. Less cars on the roads will make the roads safer for cyclists, who will no longer be forced onto paths out of mortal fear.

Removing cars from the roads will not solve "the entire problem", it'll simply change it. The real problem is the obnoxious behaviour of some people, their mode of transport just changes the level of immediate risk they pose to those around them. So, someone who drives a car oblivious to those around them will remain a danger even if they choose to ride a bicycle instead - the risk of them squishing someone utterly will certainly decrease, but the risk of them causing injury to others does not go away. Much like if you take a gun away from an idiot and give them a knife, unless you get them to stop acting like an idiot (through education, etc.) they are still a serious risk.

As for people supposedly being "forced onto paths out of mortal fear", you could do with toning down the hysteria. Promoting the illusion that using the roads is like entering a war zone makes things worse, not better.

Ole Rodrigo · 30-08-2011 12:01PM

Its not that difficult to get off and wheel a bike if you need to use the path. A safety campaign to that effect ( and other aspects of public cycling) might be the solution ? Although I think it's as much an issue of respect as safety.

Lumen · 30-08-2011 12:04PM

rocstar wrote: »

Its not that difficult to get off and wheel a bike if you need to use the path. A safety campaign to that effect ( and other aspects of public cycling) might be the solution ? Although I think it's as much an issue of respect as safety.

A publicity campaign would be as pointless as those anti-speeding ads aimed at male teenage drivers. You could chop their arms and legs off and they'd still find ways to endanger themselves.

doozerie · 30-08-2011 12:20PM

Lumen wrote: »

A publicity campaign would be as pointless as those anti-speeding ads aimed at male teenage drivers. You could chop their arms and legs off and they'd still find ways to endanger themselves.

But at least the campaigners would feel better about themselves, which is important of course 'cos they know what's best, you know...

Not surprisingly, commuters who currently drive or use public transport to get to work had a “poor perception” of cycling – because of the risks involved – and the study said this demonstrated a greater need for segregation and lower traffic speeds.

...where's my exasperated bleedin' smiley?...

Ole Rodrigo · 30-08-2011 12:51PM

Lumen wrote: »

A publicity campaign would be as pointless as those anti-speeding ads aimed at male teenage drivers. You could chop their arms and legs off and they'd still find ways to endanger themselves.

There's alot of pointless initiatives undertaken by the government, at least it would be cheap. I'm thinking, and am probably being naive, that people on bicycles aren't of the boy-racer variety and might respond to being shamed into changing their behaviour.

Should people who cycle on footpaths be prosecuted?

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