Should people who cycle on footpaths be prosecuted?

tomasrojo

Incidentally, while I fully accept that dublinbikes are not a completely unalloyed blessing (my sister finds the footpath around St. Stephen's Green is becoming hazardous), they must have a pretty detailed picture of journeys cyclists are taking, illegal as well as legal.

It would be instructive to look at this to derive "desire lines" and see whether as well as the stick of on-the-spot fines the authorities could use a carrot of trying to make some of these journeys legal. Some exemptions for one-way streets are surely possible, and indeed have already been discussed by Dublin City Council.

I saw the idea here:

http://memex.naughtons.org/archives/2010/12/02/12385

The data also shows that bike journeys between two points are shorter in distance than the corresponding journey by car. There are no bike lanes in Lyon so this suggests that cyclists use other techniques to make short cuts, say Jensen and co. Their shocking conclusion is that cyclists often ride on the pavement, along bus lanes and the wrong way up one way streets.
That kind of information will be useful for urban planners. For the first time they have real data to show where to build cycle lanes and how well they will be used…

Mech1

I am no longer a cyclist. I'm 43, until i was 20 my bike went everywhere i went. Peugeot 10spd for play, work, holidays everywhere!

But in the past 5 years i have been hit and knocked down twice.
Missed by inches and the cyclist fell off on 4 occassions.
Missed by inches and the cyclist stayed on many many times.(verbal both ways)

and all just while walking out of my workplace in Monkstown to join the footpath.

Cyclists just cannot stop quick enough to avoid a collision if someone walks from a shop type entrance onto the path, simple.

Use the road, thats where you are fighting for rights etc.

You will get no help from me while you still use the paths

Iwannahurl

Lumen wrote: »

I often get frustrated by poor junction design when driving, so I just pull up on to the footpath and continue on my way.

You and a lot of other motorists.

And cyclists.

Duke Leonal Felmet

Mech1 wrote: »

I am no longer a cyclist. I'm 43, until i was 20 my bike went everywhere i went. Peugeot 10spd for play, work, holidays everywhere!

But in the past 5 years i have been hit and knocked down twice.
Missed by inches and the cyclist fell off on 4 occassions.
Missed by inches and the cyclist stayed on many many times.(verbal both ways)

and all just while walking out of my workplace in Monkstown to join the footpath.

Cyclists just cannot stop quick enough to avoid a collision if someone walks from a shop type entrance onto the path, simple.

Use the road, thats where you are fighting for rights etc.

You will get no help from me while you still use the paths

I have accepted that some day I will be hit by one of these muppets. Came very close a couple of months ago. I am less concerned about being hit by a car, at least they tend to stick to the road. You know where you stand.

doozerie

Mech1 wrote: »

Use the road, thats where you are fighting for rights etc.

This I fully agree with.

Mech1 wrote:

You will get no help from me while you still use the paths

You are making the mistake here of tarring all cyclists with the one brush. Yes there are certainly idiots who do idiotic things on bikes but despite the fact that on any one day there may be many of them, they are also many people on bikes who adhere to the rules and are just as frustrated by the idiots as you are. In the same way that not all motorists are the psychos that some people glibly label them, not all cyclists are obnoxious idiots.

The gist of this thread is that Dublin Bike users are the main scourge but I don't think that's entirely true either, it's just another lazy generalisation.

reallyunique

The current system seems to work very well indeed. As a regular pedestrian I have occasionally been bumped into by drunks or pushed out of the way by people in a hurry but I've never been hit by a cyclist.
I haven't been made aware of problems in A&E wards caused by pedestrian/cyclist injuries and even the tabloids, which seem happy to use the words "scare" or "tragedy" to describe almost any occurrence have not leaped on this particular "outrage". No further action by police, courts or lawmakers seems justified.

My two daughters (7&9) cycle on the pavement where junctions are dangerous or where the road becomes cluttered beyond their ability to cope. Although several people have shouted abuse at them and me, they have never run into a pedestrian and are careful and courteous (as much as kids ever are) to other pavement users. Fines, jail time or beatings from roving mobs of vigilantes will not make the streets safer. They are safe already.
Shouting abuse is a form of assault but it would seem churlish to prosecute people who seem already to have the weight of the world on their shoulders. I don't advocate prosecuting foul mouthed pedestrians, cyclists or drivers though they annoy me and frighten my children.

Cycling on pavements is doubtless against the law but is a minor infraction compared to driving on the pavement. Prosecution takes police time and that time should be used to save lives, reduce injury and improve the flow of traffic (in a "road centric" view of Garda work). The courts time is precious and dealing with petty squabbles regarding who should and should not be on the pavement is a waste of that time.

Prosecute dangerous activities, not those that merely irritate and annoy.

Mech1

After reading this thread I have made a decision that in general life I disagree with.

Next time i'm hit, i'm going to get paid.

Mech1

In the main I dont have a problem with children on the path. BUT children are teenagers soon.

Children go slow enough and if parents are with them I can see the point that cycling on the road would be too slow and dangerous.

THIS IS NOT THE TYPE OF CYCLISTS I'M TALKING ABOUT.

Iwannahurl

The poll options are too limited, so I didn't vote.

Enforcement of the law prohibiting footpath cycling should be done in proportion to the extent that other road traffic laws are enforced.

What I am trying to say is that there are many other road traffic offences that can and should be enforced, and IMO it would not be fair or sensible to clamp down on footpath cycling while failing to curb (or while turning a blind eye to) more serious and dangerous lawbreaking on the roads.

Such offences include speeding, dangerous overtaking, driving on the pavement, parking on footpaths and in cycle lanes etc.

If possible there should also be prosecution -- or at least persecution -- of roads engineers, Ministers for Transport, Local Authority officials and government agency managers for a wide range of crimes against cycling over the last two or three decades. It is because of their culpable ignorance, in addition to our Irish culture of lax or non-existent law enforcement, that we have such poor cycling conditions and behaviour, IMO.

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Suffolk Street:


This is a contra-flow-cycle track, except that if somebody parks on it (as they often do) cyclists are forced to ride down a one-way street into oncoming traffic.

In this case, as soon as the An Post van moved off, the white mini-bus drove down the cycle track against oncoming cyclists forcing them to take evasive action. He then parked there, completely obstructing the cycle track, which is bounded by a continuous white line which means 'do not drive here' and double yellows.



It's all part of Ireland's light-hearted attitude towards road safety.

Iwannahurl

reallyunique wrote: »

The current system seems to work very well indeed.

What system?!

tomasrojo

There are marginal cases as well. Is it really that bad to cycle a metre or two along the footpath from the road to get to the bicycle stand beside the supermarket? I know you could walk, but is it really a terrible crime to be a little lazy and cycle it? The Daily Mail ran a Gotcha! story on Jon Snow where they photographed him in pretty much this scenario.

Or is it that bad to cycle slowly across a footpath to get out of a housing estate, where the road takes an impractical, circuitous route?

Mech1

Since you took the time to photograph, did you take the time to report / attend as a witness?

Iwannahurl

tomasrojo wrote: »

There are marginal cases as well. Is it really that bad to cycle a metre or two along the footpath from the road to get to the bicycle stand beside the supermarket? I know you could walk, but is it really a terrible crime to be a little lazy and cycle it? The Daily Mail ran a Gotcha! story on Jon Snow where they photographed him in pretty much this scenario.

Or is it that bad to cycle slowly across a footpath to get out of a housing estate, where the road takes an impractical, circuitous route?

Crossing a footpath to get to a parking spot is legal for motorised vehicles, so logically it applies to bikes too.

Having to use a footpath to exit a housing estate is the fault of the "planners" and/or engineers. If it's a short stretch then it's a trivial infringement. If it's a longer (or narrower) stretch that leads to conflict between cyclists and pedstrians, then prosecute the "planners".

Iwannahurl

Mech1 wrote: »

Since you took the time to photograph, did you take the time to report / attend as a witness?

You'd need to ask the poster.

Check out the Obnoxious Parking thread for many more examples of foot/cycle path abuse by motorists, among them those agents of the State whom you would expect to do the enforcing.

studiorat

Two things I don't understand here.

Mech1 wrote: »

I am no longer a cyclist. I'm 43, until i was 20 my bike went everywhere i went. Peugeot 10spd for play, work, holidays everywhere!

What relevance does the previous statement have? What is your point?

Mech1 wrote: »

and all just while walking out of my workplace in Monkstown to join the footpath.

When you say join the foot path? From where? the road?

Finally, should pedestrians who walk in cycle lanes be subjected to a similar fine?

Mech1

Sorry just assumed they where your own pics my bad.

rollingscone

Enforcing it on Grafton st would be a good start, so many hipsters gaily cruising around crowds of pedestrians on their sit down bikes with scarves blowing behind.

That said, while footpath cycling is a personal hate, enforcement on a wider scale is not feasible, what we need is to internalise discipline and stop expecting grown ups to make us obey rules that are there to protect us.

reallyunique

Iwannahurl:
The system of people ignoring the prohibition on cycling on the pavement. Ignoring it seems to cause no fatalities and even Mech1 (hit twice in five years) has survived and is waiting for his next incident so that he can "get paid". Traumatic incidents all but perhaps not requiring a change in policing. Vehicles parked on cycle lanes is irritating but in many cases not dangerous. It has been said many times here that cycling is a safe and environmentally friendly activity, right now. No more rules, no more enforcement, just a little more care and consideration perhaps.

@Mech1:
Please don't shout.:o
Before you "get paid" for the next time you are hit and knocked down consider if it is good value for money. Don't forget that people running can also hit you when you come out of a doorway, shop etc. They can also be an opportunity to "get paid". In these tough economic times it is good to have several streams of income.

Enforcing rules does not always have the intended effect. The US locks up a greater percentage of it's population than Ireland but I would not trade our level of crime for theirs.

Mech1

Your 1st quote = I have cycled many many miles in the past, granted it was 23 years ago when I parked it.

But I still learned the "what will work" from my cycle racing days on and off road. It still stands to me today when using the 600cc version, and it stood to me 10 years ago when traversing the Ulster Grand Prix circuit in Northern Ireland (on closed roads I admit) at mad speeds avoiding the wet white lines and manhole covers. (its called reading the road ahead, hasnt changed).

Your second quote = from a converted (to business use) house onto the path. no driveway the door is almost on the path.

Your question answer = No all vehicles (even cycles) must yield to pedestrians. Jay walking is already in law.

studiorat

Mech1 wrote: »

Your 1st quote = I have cycled many many miles in the past, granted it was 23 years ago when I parked it.

But I still learned the "what will work" from my cycle racing days on and off road. It still stands to me today when using the 600cc version, and it stood to me 10 years ago when traversing the Ulster Grand Prix circuit in Northern Ireland (on closed roads I admit) at mad speeds avoiding the wet white lines and manhole covers. (its called reading the road ahead, hasnt changed).

In reality they are in fact very different and that I believe is where your misunderstanding lies. Riding a bicycle you have only one phase of control available; speed, gear and acceleration are irrelevant on a bicycle. Position is the only viable defense.

To my regret I've never had the opportunity to give it socks around Dundrod. However, in thousands of miles of riding sports bikes only once have I had a car wedge me off the road and only once have I had a driver clearly see me and pull out regardless forcing me to emergency stop. Cycling this is a daily if not weekly occurrence. A motorcycle commands much more respect on the road than a bicycle does, from both pedestrians and other vehicles.

Does jaywalking then cover pedestrians walking on the cycle lane where they are oblivious to the threat of an approaching bicycle?

And does the fact that you are on the foot path negate any responsibility to actually being aware of your environment and possible hazards?

I'm not advocating wreckless use of pavements by cyclists, but to expect a law to be enforced prosecuting someone for cycling a bicycle on the foot path is simply another example of the daft "nanny state" mentality people in this country have come to expect.

Jawgap

What happens here? Prosecute or not?

goingpostal

I always cycle on the path on the Dock Road in Limerick. Don't want to do it but don't want to end up as road kill either. That stretch of road from the business park to the junction at Ashbourne Avenue is only for cyclists with a death wish. I always slow down when approaching pedestrians and stop if necessary. Been doing it for a year now and got no abuse from any pedestrians yet, including our nationally famous parliamentary representative, who walks that path regularly. I take his silence on this matter as tacit approval of my behaviour. Or something. Otherwise I avoid paths, except late at night, when its rare to see a pedestrian.

-Chris-

Should a cyclist on the footpath be prosecuted? No

Should the Gardai be able to issue fixed penalty notices for infractions like being on the footpath, going the wrong way up a one way street, not using lights etc? Yes


Garda discretion could then be used, and the courts wouldn't be tied up with silly traffic infractions (probably a reason why the Gardai don't prosecute footpath cyclists).

tomasrojo

-Chris- wrote: »

Should a cyclist on the footpath be prosecuted? No

Should the Gardai be able to issue fixed penalty notices for infractions like being on the footpath, going the wrong way up a one way street, not using lights etc? Yes


Garda discretion could then be used, and the courts wouldn't be tied up with silly traffic infractions (probably a reason why the Gardai don't prosecute footpath cyclists).

Provided the Gardaí use the discretion suggested here, that sounds about right.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=74102869#post74102869

-Chris-

tomasrojo wrote: »

Provided the Gardaí use the discretion suggested here, that sounds about right.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=74102869#post74102869

That seems like a very reasonable compromise they've come up with imho.

tomasrojo

Mech1 wrote: »

Jay walking is already in law.

I don't think we have an offence here that is directly equivalent to jaywalking. You're allowed to cross wherever you like, provided you aren't near a designated pedestrian crossing.

Vélo

studiorat wrote: »

Finally, should pedestrians who walk in cycle lanes be subjected to a similar fine?

Since reading this thread I was asking myself the same question.


It was menitoned here already that it's ok for kids to cycle on the footpaths but then they become teenagers. Is this to be taken as the cut off point?


This thread is a load of cack.

Jawgap

Vélo wrote: »

This thread is a load of cack.

This what happens when a forum is downhill from After Hours and their septic tank overflows.....

If the Guards have the time to keep a lid on warring drug gangs, investigate dissident activity, chase paedos and eat breakfast rolls then they have the time to prosecute footpad cyclists.

HivemindXX

I'm in favour of everyone obeying the rules and if the rules are wrong (you have to endanger yourself to follow them, there is no reason for the rule) you should work to change them not simply ignore them.

The thread title is pretty militant. I'd be in favour of allowing on the spot fines for many of the frequent cycling offences. I would be worried that this would be taken to extremes though. The recent example of the New York cop who parked his patrol car in the cycle lane and then ticketed cyclists who went around him comes to mind.

I'm a bit baffled every time one of these threads comes up and there are people who are apparently having frequent near misses or even being hit by cyclists. I see lots of cyclists on the footpath and I can see how that is irritating to people and might even make particularly nervous people concerned, both of which are good reasons to clamp down on it, but I've never come close to being hit by a footpath cyclist.

petethedrummer

Should planners of bad transport facilities be prosecuted?