Common Garda advice these days, dont follow it up, dont press charges

ArtSmart · 30-08-2011 12:44AM

angelfire9 wrote: »

This is not Garda laziness, this is the voice of experience & I would be 100% in agreement with a suggestion that the prosecution of the offence will be of no benefit to the victim and no deterrent to the offenders who will probably get a slap on the wrist after all is said & done

for sure.

but as I say, the trouble makers are no fools. they use that exact situation. the prob is primarily the slowness of the prosecution procedures. however, unresponded to crime only leads to one thing. more of the same

D1stant · 30-08-2011 12:44AM

angelfire9 wrote: »

Ah yes... the garda bashing has commenced in earnest :rolleyes:

OP let me put it to you this way
If my daughter was 15 and assaulted in the manner you have described there is no way in hell's earth I'd want to press charges against the scum who did it and I say this as a cop's wife & a cop's daughter

Testifying in open court as would be required of the injured kids & the witnesses in this situation is an absolutely terrifying ORDEAL
I can say this with complete certainty as the victim of an assault who had to testify in my 20's and I came out of court shaking & sobbing
I had the complete backing of my family, my husband and literally half the cops in Clare (because of my family connections)
I had cops in the court house to support me
I had a family liaison officer and my husband's super to hold my hand (literally & metaphorically) and it took me a long long time to recover from the experience and it is not something I would ever wish on a child

Secondly, it sounds from your OP that there might be a strong risk of witness intimidation from the scum against the victims if charges are pressed

In this type of situation you need to weigh up the risk & benefits
The risks to the victims are 2 fold ~ intimidation for the 12-18 months it takes to get the case to hearing in the district court, and possibly the worst possible intimidation from defence counsel in the court room (not deliberate but they have a job to do)

It would take a VERY VERY strong character to emerge unblemished psychologically from that kind of experience & personally it is not something I would inflict on a 15 year old who by the very virtue of their age is already a fragile human being

This is not Garda laziness, this is the voice of experience & I would be 100% in agreement with a suggestion that the prosecution of the offence will be of no benefit to the victim and no deterrent to the offenders who will probably get a slap on the wrist after all is said & done

Saddest thing Ive read in a while (genuinely)

Wolfe Tone · 30-08-2011 12:44AM

lastlaugh wrote: »

Those scumbags might need some intensive 'Councilling'.

The days of this type of thing are long gone.

hondasam wrote: »

Wolfe tone have you had any good experience with ags.

I have actually, they were a great help when I was assaulted, I know a few Garda too, nice guys.

However, I have become very jaded, as anyone would, when they see the difference in treatment people receive from the gardaí based on their socio economic background, or even their address or accent.

When it comes to law enforcement I have very very high standards, there are many flaws with AGS, many many flaws. Not all are their fault of course, but some are. Better to highlight these issues, or "garda bash" then to pretend everything is fine and dandy.

angelfire9 · 30-08-2011 12:46AM

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

The days of this type of thing are long gone.

I have actually, they were a great help when I was assaulted, I know a few Garda too, nice guys.

However, I have become very jaded, as anyone would, when they see the difference in treatment people receive from the gardaí based on their socio economic background, or even their address or accent.

When it comes to law enforcement I have very very high standards, there are many flaws with AGS, many many flaws. Not all are their fault of course, but some are. Better to highlight these issues, or "garda bash" then to pretend everything is fine and dandy.

Wolfe Tone I have 2 questions:
1) Do you have kids?
2) Have you ever testified in court against someone who absolutely terrified you?

celticcrash · 30-08-2011 12:51AM

angelfire9 wrote: »

Ah yes... the garda bashing has commenced in earnest :rolleyes:

OP let me put it to you this way
If my daughter was 15 and assaulted in the manner you have described there is no way in hell's earth I'd want to press charges against the scum who did it and I say this as a cop's wife & a cop's daughter

Testifying in open court as would be required of the injured kids & the witnesses in this situation is an absolutely terrifying ORDEAL
I can say this with complete certainty as the victim of an assault who had to testify in my 20's and I came out of court shaking & sobbing
I had the complete backing of my family, my husband and literally half the cops in Clare (because of my family connections)
I had cops in the court house to support me
I had a family liaison officer and my husband's super to hold my hand (literally & metaphorically) and it took me a long long time to recover from the experience and it is not something I would ever wish on a child

Secondly, it sounds from your OP that there might be a strong risk of witness intimidation from the scum against the victims if charges are pressed

In this type of situation you need to weigh up the risk & benefits
The risks to the victims are 2 fold ~ intimidation for the 12-18 months it takes to get the case to hearing in the district court, and possibly the worst possible intimidation from defence counsel in the court room (not deliberate but they have a job to do)

It would take a VERY VERY strong character to emerge unblemished psychologically from that kind of experience & personally it is not something I would inflict on a 15 year old who by the very virtue of their age is already a fragile human being

This is not Garda laziness, this is the voice of experience & I would be 100% in agreement with a suggestion that the prosecution of the offence will be of no benefit to the victim and no deterrent to the offenders who will probably get a slap on the wrist after all is said & done

Thanks for your reploy, its really not the guards fault, I blame the politicians, But I am hearing this regularly, it seems that the crimanals are winning and no one in power is doing anything about it.

mikemac · 30-08-2011 12:51AM

celticcrash wrote: »

At least the ra kept the heroine dealers and some of the scumbags out until they disbandened.

Take out the competition, then "tax" the dealers who are allowed operate in the area

lastlaugh · 30-08-2011 12:52AM

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

However, I have become very jaded, as anyone would, when they see the difference in treatment people receive from the gardaí based on their socio economic background, or even their address or accent.

When it comes to law enforcement I have very very high standards, there are many flaws with AGS, many many flaws. Not all are their fault of course, but some are. Better to highlight these issues, or "garda bash" then to pretend everything is fine and dandy.

Hi WolfeTone, can I ask you how you have such very very high standards? Genuine question, I mean do you have lots of experience at protests or something?

Wolfe Tone · 30-08-2011 12:54AM

angelfire9 wrote: »

Ah yes... the garda bashing has commenced in earnest :rolleyes:

OP let me put it to you this way
If my daughter was 15 and assaulted in the manner you have described there is no way in hell's earth I'd want to press charges against the scum who did it and I say this as a cop's wife & a cop's daughter

Testifying in open court as would be required of the injured kids & the witnesses in this situation is an absolutely terrifying ORDEAL
I can say this with complete certainty as the victim of an assault who had to testify in my 20's and I came out of court shaking & sobbing
I had the complete backing of my family, my husband and literally half the cops in Clare (because of my family connections)
I had cops in the court house to support me
I had a family liaison officer and my husband's super to hold my hand (literally & metaphorically) and it took me a long long time to recover from the experience and it is not something I would ever wish on a child

Secondly, it sounds from your OP that there might be a strong risk of witness intimidation from the scum against the victims if charges are pressed

In this type of situation you need to weigh up the risk & benefits
The risks to the victims are 2 fold ~ intimidation for the 12-18 months it takes to get the case to hearing in the district court, and possibly the worst possible intimidation from defence counsel in the court room (not deliberate but they have a job to do)

It would take a VERY VERY strong character to emerge unblemished psychologically from that kind of experience & personally it is not something I would inflict on a 15 year old who by the very virtue of their age is already a fragile human being

This is not Garda laziness, this is the voice of experience & I would be 100% in agreement with a suggestion that the prosecution of the offence will be of no benefit to the victim and no deterrent to the offenders who will probably get a slap on the wrist after all is said & done

Ha, thats just the type of thing I meant when I talked about the treatment different people get.

I know very well what people go through when they have to appear as a witness in court, I've seen close family members go through it and its not nice.

However, I personally have been told, as have many others, that it is "simply not worth the hassle" by the Gardaí, and what I did, and what others should do if they want to try and get some sort of justice, is to make a big fuss and get the Gardaí to take you and your complaint seriously. That decision about your kid having to appear in court is yours to make, not the Garda who you complain to, its infuriating to get your head kicked in and then be told that pursuing it is "Not worth the hassle, are you sure you want to go ahead and make a complaint, if you do I'll have to investigate it", then have the Garda roll his eyes and sigh when you insist.

Gyalist · 30-08-2011 12:55AM

I was attacked in March by two guys. I bumped into the garda who was handling the case about 3 weeks ago and he told me that they weren't going to go ahead with prosecuting the two idiots.

He even seemed embarassed at the reasons that he was giving me - that it wasn't his decision, but it was from his senior officer; that one of the guys was going to lose his job if he was prosecuted, etc. TBH, I can't say that I was really surprised but at least I have the satisfaction of knowing that I gave them a good hiding even though the attack was entirely unprovoked.

I'm considering putting the CCTV up on YouTube now that there isn't going to be a prosecution.

Wolfe Tone · 30-08-2011 12:57AM

lastlaugh wrote: »

Hi WolfeTome, can I ask you how you have such very very high standards? Genuine question, I mean do you have lots of experience at protests or something?

No, not at all, I just think that any law enforcement agency or whatever, should be top top standard, effective, honest and fair. I dont think AGS as a whole, is that.

I think it can be, hence why I'm critical, if I felt it was a lost cause I wouldn't bother, but there are some top top Garda.

angelfire9 · 30-08-2011 01:00AM

celticcrash wrote: »

Thanks for your reploy, its really not the guards fault, I blame the politicians, But I am hearing this regularly, it seems that the crimanals are winning and no one in power is doing anything about it.

In my experience where there are juvenile victims this can be relatively common advice given by AGS

I had a friend (years ago when i was single) who's sister was 16 and raped by a 17 year old
She & her parents were counselled against prosecuting because she was fragile enough after the rape and testifying would have torn her to shreds

My gut instinct at the time would have been to encourage her to prosecute

I went with her to the Garda station (I was about 21 at the time)

I held her hand while she told her parents (not a nice situation to be in)

I went with her to Cork to the SAU

And that even I went home to my parents and talked it over with my dad (who was a member at the time) and he totally changed my mind with regards to prosecuting

In all crimes the victim is the person who matters most
Sometimes testifying can help a victim to recover their dignity and feel that justice was served

Sometimes (in the case above) testifying could make things worse

Sometimes (in my own experience) testifying is the right thing to do even if you have nightmares about it for years after (and I did)

But it takes A LOT of courage, A LOT of support and a fair amount of stubbornness

Pdfile · 30-08-2011 01:01AM

celticcrash wrote: »

A fifteen year old boy and his friend were playing hurling in the park
the other day. a gang of scumbags came in and took the hurleys off them.
When the boys asked back for their hurleys, the gang attacked them, beating them, beating them with the hurleys and breaking one of their jaws.
There was plenty of witnessess,and also the gang were caught on cctv comming and going from the park.
The boys parents were advised not to follow it up, it would be to much hassle for them.
I am hearing this alot these days, most victims of crime are getting this
advise from the Gardi,
Are the garda over whelmed with crime? Have they the manpower?
Are the garda afraid?
Is it our softly softly approach to crime?
Why are the garda and politicians not protecting the innocent?
And why are they protecting the criminals?

they let them take the hurleys so they where asking for a bating....

i personally take mine on holidays to beat up the foreigners.

angelfire9 · 30-08-2011 01:02AM

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Ha, thats just the type of thing I meant when I talked about the treatment different people get.

I know very well what people go through when they have to appear as a witness in court, I've seen close family members go through it and its not nice.

However, I personally have been told, as have many others, that it is "simply not worth the hassle" by the Gardaí, and what I did, and what others should do if they want to try and get some sort of justice, is to make a big fuss and get the Gardaí to take you and your complaint seriously. That decision about your kid having to appear in court is yours to make, not the Garda who you complain to, its infuriating to get your head kicked in and then be told that pursuing it is "Not worth the hassle, are you sure you want to go ahead and make a complaint, if you do I'll have to investigate it", then have the Garda roll his eyes and sigh when you insist.

The Gardai don't make the decision
They give advice
It is up to the parents' of the juvenile victim to make the decision
And 99.9% of parents will say no

sdanseo · 30-08-2011 01:03AM

What about a different school of thought here.

Instead of jumping to the premature conclusion that the Gardaí were being lazy and avoiding paperwork, god forbid one might jump to the conclusion that they were giving the best advice to suit the particular circumstances at the time? If the lady above couldn't testify in court with all the Gardaí she knew behind her and on her side, how the hell is ordinary joe meant to feel about the prospect?

I'd love to think if I found myself in a similar situation that I'd be queueing to get into court and give evidence. The long run though, would no doubt see me doing no such thing. In a similar way, if someone lands a punch on me after a night out I'd love to beat the living shíte into them - but maturity would prevent me from doing so.

I'm sick of seeing Garda bashing threads on here, I had a vested interest at one stage but not any longer so I can say, as a bone fide ordinary member of the public, that the Gardaí have my full support. And let the bashers here or anywhere else who takes the piss for no apparent reason and without any justification try doing their (poorly paid) job for a week, and see how they get on.

Logical Fallacy · 30-08-2011 01:06AM

sdeire wrote: »

Instead of jumping to the premature conclusion that the Gardaí were being lazy and avoiding paperwork, god forbid one might jump to the conclusion that they were giving the best advice to suit the particular circumstances at the time?

My girlfriends sister was assaulted at a pub up the road from where we live. She was punch in the face, fell to the ground and smashed her head off a curb and knocked out. She woke up being tended to by paramedics and was brought to hospital where she need stitches.

The assailant was known to the Guards, known to cause trouble and they knew his address and their advice was to not press charges.

I cannot see how the offered advice suits this situation.

D1stant · 30-08-2011 01:09AM

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Ha, thats just the type of thing I meant when I talked about the treatment different people get.

I know very well what people go through when they have to appear as a witness in court, I've seen close family members go through it and its not nice.

However, I personally have been told, as have many others, that it is "simply not worth the hassle" by the Gardaí, and what I did, and what others should do if they want to try and get some sort of justice, is to make a big fuss and get the Gardaí to take you and your complaint seriously. That decision about your kid having to appear in court is yours to make, not the Garda who you complain to, its infuriating to get your head kicked in and then be told that pursuing it is "Not worth the hassle, are you sure you want to go ahead and make a complaint, if you do I'll have to investigate it", then have the Garda roll his eyes and sigh when you insist.

How is life in black and white?

Muas Tenek · 30-08-2011 01:13AM

angelfire9 wrote: »

Ah yes... the garda bashing has commenced in earnest :rolleyes:

OP let me put it to you this way
If my daughter was 15 and assaulted in the manner you have described there is no way in hell's earth I'd want to press charges against the scum who did it and I say this as a cop's wife & a cop's daughter

Testifying in open court as would be required of the injured kids & the witnesses in this situation is an absolutely terrifying ORDEAL
I can say this with complete certainty as the victim of an assault who had to testify in my 20's and I came out of court shaking & sobbing
I had the complete backing of my family, my husband and literally half the cops in Clare (because of my family connections)
I had cops in the court house to support me
I had a family liaison officer and my husband's super to hold my hand (literally & metaphorically) and it took me a long long time to recover from the experience and it is not something I would ever wish on a child

Secondly, it sounds from your OP that there might be a strong risk of witness intimidation from the scum against the victims if charges are pressed

In this type of situation you need to weigh up the risk & benefits
The risks to the victims are 2 fold ~ intimidation for the 12-18 months it takes to get the case to hearing in the district court, and possibly the worst possible intimidation from defence counsel in the court room (not deliberate but they have a job to do)

It would take a VERY VERY strong character to emerge unblemished psychologically from that kind of experience & personally it is not something I would inflict on a 15 year old who by the very virtue of their age is already a fragile human being

This is not Garda laziness, this is the voice of experience & I would be 100% in agreement with a suggestion that the prosecution of the offence will be of no benefit to the victim and no deterrent to the offenders who will probably get a slap on the wrist after all is said & done

This is by a country mile the post that has made me most sad about the society we live in (even my tears are weeping) that we don't respect our children's right to enjoy their own neighbourhood. Every evening this Summer I watch with great joy the children of our community playing football, hopscotch, chasing, hide and go seek etc and I remember my own unblemished childhood and I would defend to my last breath every child's right to have what I had as a child, but it seems to me that the PC society we have developed favours the scum of society rather than the rest of us.

Miss you "Lugs" one of the few real coppers

PC keeps most of our current mules out of the loop but some of you guys still make a difference (you know who you are

)

dev100 · 30-08-2011 01:19AM

I think this is a sad day when gardai advise people not to push for prosecution . Is this the way we want to live? That it's easier to do nothing? Not being able to protect the vulnerable before and after. I think that's when civil society has broken down.

Wolfe Tone · 30-08-2011 01:20AM

Muas Tenek wrote: »

This is by a country mile the post that has made me most sad about the society we live in (even my tears are weeping) that we don't respect our children's right to enjoy their own neighbourhood. Every evening this Summer I watch with great joy the children of our community playing football, hopscotch, chasing, hide and go seek etc and I remember my own unblemished childhood and I would defend to my last breath every child's right to have what I had as a child, but it seems to me that the PC society we have developed favours the scum of society rather than the rest of us.

Miss you "Lugs" one of the few real coppers

PC keeps most of our current mules out of the loop but some of you guys still make a difference (you know who you are )

A scumbag like Lugs is hardly what the Gardaí should strive to be.

celticcrash · 30-08-2011 01:21AM

I know a bussiness man whos warehouse was broke into, six dvds from the cctv he handed the guards. Two weeks later the guards told him that they lost the dvds:rolleyes: The manager said thats ok I have more copys,and passed them on to the garda, two weeks later he went back up to the station to find out the progress. He was told the best thing he could do was find another place to trade. The manager made a complaint against the garda. The managers trucks were stopped all over the city by the garda and it went on for three months. harasment from the garda non stop just because he stood up for justice.
This is not a fifteen year old girl, this was a fully grown man who stood up
to the scumbags,
Whit six hours of dvd you dont have to stand up incourt and boy was he willing to stand up in court. Again the garda harassed the victim.

Muas Tenek · 30-08-2011 01:23AM

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

A scumbag like Lugs is hardly what the Gardaí should strive to be.

You obviously never saw him in action - he was a gentleman if you were on the right side of the law.

sdanseo · 30-08-2011 01:24AM

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

My girlfriends sister was assaulted at a pub up the road from where we live. She was punch in the face, fell to the ground and smashed her head off a curb and knocked out. She woke up being tended to by paramedics and was brought to hospital where she need stitches.

The assailant was known to the Guards, known to cause trouble and they knew his address and their advice was to not press charges.

I cannot see how the offered advice suits this situation.

They could have known, perhaps, full well that the required evidence was not there and that the DPP would not allow them to prosecute.

They could have known that if prosecuted, the assailant would subject the victim to torrades of further abuse and intimidation whereas by foregoing the closure of a court case they would save themselves that suffering.

Advice not to press charges is not a decision not to press charges and the victim still has the right to defy that advice and pursue charges if they wish, after which the DPP makes the call, not the Gardaí - they only proescute on the DPP's behalf (IIRC).

I struggle to see why any Garda would issue advice not to press charges purely to save the hassle for themselves. Any Garda or police officer I've seen in the flesh or on reality TV, in the news has always seemed driven by the desire to "get their man". Can't see them causing that not to happen deliberately and besides, to do so would be a sackable breach of their code of conduct.

Wolfe Tone · 30-08-2011 01:24AM

Muas Tenek wrote: »

You obviously never saw him in action - he was a gentleman if you were on the right side of the law.

Police brutality is not the answer, and that **** would often get the wrong people.

angelfire9 · 30-08-2011 01:30AM

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

angelfire9 wrote: »

OP let me put it to you this way
If my daughter was 15 and assaulted in the manner you have described there is no way in hell's earth I'd want to press charges against the scum who did it and I say this as a cop's wife & a cop's daughter

I had the complete backing of my family, my husband and literally half the cops in Clare (because of my family connections)

Ha, thats just the type of thing I meant when I talked about the treatment different people get.

I know very well what people go through when they have to appear as a witness in court, I've seen close family members go through it and its not nice.

Does it take you long to get up on your high horse WT? (just curious)

For the record I LITERALLY grew up in a Garda station (Sgt I/C often got accommodation with the job in the old days)
I had cops at my christening (or so I'm told), cops at my wedding, if I dropped dead tomorrow I'm fairly sure there'd be cops at my funeral so having polis in the court house is not favoritism they were my friends !!!!

To answer your second point I cannot over emphasise the difference between having family testify and doing it yourself it's like chalk & cheese
Unless you've sat in a witness box getting your dignity shredded under cross examination and your entire life dissected under a metaphorical microscope you can't really understand what it feels like

celticcrash · 30-08-2011 01:37AM

And yet the garda go for the soft target, the motorist. My nct was out by a week. I was stopped by a female garda. I told her that their was a back date on the nct centre, that I had one in two weeks time, and she still done me. I spoke to another garda after wards and he told me 99% of garda would have left me off,its petty he said its just some are still green
around the ears, and dont know how to treat people in the community yet. They cause a lot of harm in garda and community relation ships.

Wolfe Tone · 30-08-2011 01:38AM

angelfire9 wrote: »

Does it take you long to get up on your high horse WT? (just curious)

For the record I LITERALLY grew up in a Garda station (Sgt I/C often got accommodation with the job in the old days)
I had cops at my christening (or so I'm told), cops at my wedding, if I dropped dead tomorrow I'm fairly sure there'd be cops at my funeral so having polis in the court house is not favoritism they were my friends !!!!

To answer your second point I cannot over emphasise the difference between having family testify and doing it yourself it's like chalk & cheese
Unless you've sat in a witness box getting your dignity shredded under cross examination and your entire life dissected under a metaphorical microscope you can't really understand what it feels like

Are you honestly saying that having members of your family in the police force doesn't get you preferential treatment? Come on, this is Ireland, pull the other one.

So what if I haven't been in a witness box? This advise the Garda give isnt about concern for the victim, its often about their own laziness. They often spiel forward such sh!te as "nothing will come of it, no point, it will be a lot of hassle" rather than actually advising you on what, if it does get to court, will happen. I've heard this crap, friends have heard that crap, so have many many others, a lot of the time they just dont want to hear, and my advice is if you get a Garda like that, make a fuss.

celticcrash · 30-08-2011 01:40AM

Theres a good days shooting in this country yet

sdanseo · 30-08-2011 01:40AM

celticcrash wrote: »

And yet the garda go for the soft target, the motorist. My nct was out by a week. I was stopped by a female garda. I told her that their was a back date on the nct centre, that I had one in two weeks time, and she still done me. I spoke to another garda after wards and he told me 99% of garda would have left me off,its petty he said its just some are still green
around the ears, and dont know how to treat people in the community yet. They cause a lot of harm in garda and community relation ships.

I'll agree that national policy on traffic enforcement is completely stupid - but it's the same the world over. All about raking in the revenue. It's government that set those rules, not even the Gardaí as a whole and certainly not the individual cops themselves. Bashing them for it will do no good - it's Gaybo and his motley crew of toal blithering braindead idiots in Ballina that need to be bashed instead.

Muas Tenek · 30-08-2011 01:40AM

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Police brutality is not the answer, and that **** would often get the wrong people.

I agree with you that brutality breeds brutality and that the law should not use that as a weapon...... but let me tell you of my last encounter with Lugs.
I happened to be passing the back entrance of Tara Street fire station as the fire engine and ambulance were leaving to attend to a person who had fallen into the Liffey, some foolish teenagers decided that this was a good time to have a dance in front of the fire engine and delay the response - Lugs also happened to be passing at the time - and in his time honoured tradition grabbed a couple of the guys by their lugs (where did that nickname come from) and pulled them out of the way. He berated them for delaying the firemen who where on their way to save a life and sent them on their way (no major drama, no court cases) but I was left with the impression that some guys had learned a valuable lesson.
Take from this what you will but I believe in the short, sharp, shock method of education.

hondasam · 30-08-2011 01:41AM

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Are you honestly saying that having members of your family in the police force doesn't get you preferential treatment? Come on, this is Ireland, pull the other one.

I have to agree with you here WT, they look after their own.

It's all about who you know but it's the same for most professions.

Common Garda advice these days, dont follow it up, dont press charges

Comments