Should Declan Kidney be sacked after the world cup?

Piliger · 28-08-2011 02:31PM

KELTICKNIGHTT wrote: »

im always amused when i see people cry sack the coach
always same threaders but not surprising
can keepo changing coaches but takes players too step up too rthe mark to win games,we lack alot of things on the field specialy leadership of late
al these players are pros bvut not playing 100% as pros
we have the top of Provinces of Ireland in europe

That is exactly why Kidney must go now. When the sum of the players does not match the performance then the cause is the manager. That is the Ireland Team for the last 2 years !

A good or great manager causes his team to be far more than the sum of his players.

wixfjord · 28-08-2011 02:44PM

There has to be serious concerns of our management team with regards back play, the overall game plan, and the "new game", which Leinster play so well, and Munster are adapting to.

It simply beggars belief that possibly the only time since the rules have came in when we've looked like a capable, strong team, is against England, when Reddan and Sexton were given the license to play what was in front of them.

Since then, those two haven't played together for Ireland, and bar 20 mins against France, when TOL gave Sexton good ball, we've looked poor.

Our record since the GS, and the AIs that year, is pretty abysmal imo, and our skill levels seem to be awful at international level, but ok at club for some reason.

I seriously hope we've a new backs playbook up our sleeves for the WC, or else we're in serious trouble. If we don't we should go back to the game of ROG kicking corners, concentrate on the lineout, and use Kearney to bombard aerially.

Podge_irl · 28-08-2011 02:55PM

wixfjord wrote: »

If we don't we should go back to the game of ROG kicking corners, concentrate on the lineout, and use Kearney to bombard aerially.

Except Sexton put in three lovely kicks to the corner as soon as he came on and not once did Ireland look like challenging at the line out.

Colm_OReilly · 28-08-2011 05:11PM

I'd be more concerned/curious with how a contract for a professional sportsperson is outlined. What qualifies as his performance goals? What metrics are used? Like, is it a case of "must reach RWC 2011 SF" or must maintain a season win record of X%?

Also, how could they prove that he underperformed (and not the team?) I doubt they'd ever do something like dismiss him for failure to reach targets, but buying someone out who's underperforming might be the only way.

Tigerandahalf · 28-08-2011 05:44PM

wixfjord wrote: »

I seriously hope we've a new backs playbook up our sleeves for the WC, or else we're in serious trouble. If we don't we should go back to the game of ROG kicking corners, concentrate on the lineout, and use Kearney to bombard aerially.

I'd agree with you on the game plan. We don't have the physicality to play that type of game. You need a dominant scrum to play that way which Leinster have had, Ireland haven't. When you look back at it a lot of Ireland's great backline moves were not off the cuff but from set plays off lineouts. The team may have to go back to that as we don't have the skills, physicality or speed to play current game plan.
Some of the captaincy calls were also very poor yesterday. Were we too cocky in refusing to take shots at goal after having beaten England well in the 6Ns. One should always take the shots at goal.

skregs · 28-08-2011 06:19PM

CatFromHue wrote: »

Why? We haven't lost to them in years! A near first choice Italian 15 went down to the Scots last week by 23 to 12. Our second/third choice team also went down to the Scots but only by a last min try!
You do know we beat them in Italy at the start of the 6 Nations!

By a whopping 2 points when we were in arguably better form than we are now. Then Italy went out and beat France the week after we lost to France.

Italy know their limitations and have always proved well at stifling us. They'll expect to lose to Australia, so they'll be targeting us to get out of the group, and their pack will murder us if we've picked up any injuries

CatFromHue · 28-08-2011 06:58PM

skregs wrote: »

By a whopping 2 points when we were in arguably better form than we are now. Then Italy went out and beat France the week after we lost to France.

So winning by 2 points is not a win!

What are you saying here? On one hand it looks like you're saying we did badly by saying we only won by 2 points and on the other it looks like you're saying they're a good team cos they beat France.

I don't think they'll be a push over but I do think we'll win. We have a good record against them and so know what it takes. Even before the last World Cup we beat them playing poorly.

I also disagree about how they'll approach the Australia game. Australia have never blown them away, they've won with something to spare but never annihilated them. Italy will have looked at how the Kiwi's beat them a few weeks ago, as will we, and try and beat them up up front. It'll be both teams first game of the tournament and will be in the dead of Winter in Auckland. If it's a rainy day it will suit Italy far more than the Aussies.

tolosenc · 28-08-2011 07:19PM

What he is saying is that we beat them by the narrowest of margins when we were playing significantly better than we are now, and that as such, Italy might be good for at least 3 more points next month.

CatFromHue · 28-08-2011 07:25PM

tolosenc wrote: »

What he is saying is that we beat them by the narrowest of margins when we were playing significantly better than we are now, and that as such, Italy might be good for at least 3 more points next month.

Since our second/third team lost to Scotland by only a last minute try a few weeks ago and a near first team Italian team lost by more a few weeks later it can be argued that maybe we are playing better than them.

KELTICKNIGHTT · 28-08-2011 07:55PM

Piliger wrote: »

That is exactly why Kidney must go now. When the sum of the players does not match the performance then the cause is the manager. That is the Ireland Team for the last 2 years !

A good or great manager causes his team to be far more than the sum of his players.

ITS also up too players too step up.look what it was like under o Sullivan
come on world cup:D

skregs · 28-08-2011 10:24PM

CatFromHue wrote: »

What are you saying here? On one hand it looks like you're saying we did badly by saying we only won by 2 points and on the other it looks like you're saying they're a good team cos they beat France.

No, I'm saying that because they beat France, and we seriously struggled to get past them, Italy are a far stronger team than most people give them credit for.

Their entire world cup strategy hinges on them beating us, they'll have watched our players and tactics, and they will be targeting us big time.

tolosenc · 28-08-2011 10:34PM

And probably having a sly giggle, tbf.

28-08-2011 10:40PM

Italy are also an incredibly difficult side to convincingly beat. They are organised, dogged, and proud. They won't let us score any easy points, and will take every opportunity presented to them if we infringe at the breakdown (which we have been repeatedly penalised for this year).

I don't think we'll lose to Italy, but I feel the game will be closer than many think.

28-08-2011 10:43PM

Brendan97 wrote: »

After shocking performances from Ireland in the world cup warm-ups.
should declan kidney be sacked?

Ridiculous, however he should not have been offered a new contract before the tournament

molloyjh · 29-08-2011 02:02PM

NufcNavan wrote: »

And it was Eddie O' Sullivan's team that constantly fell short against France until Kidney took over..

You do realise of the 5 games we've played against France under Kidney we've lost 4 of them. I'm pretty sure that counts as constantly falling short. Especially as we won the first and have since lost 4 on the trot.

CatFromHue wrote: »

Why? We haven't lost to them in years! A near first choice Italian 15 went down to the Scots last week by 23 to 12. Our second/third choice team also went down to the Scots but only by a last min try!

You do know we beat them in Italy at the start of the 6 Nations! Sometimes I feel like it's a competition to see who can be the most pessimistic!

To be fair we beat England in the 6 Nations, and well. Yet at the weekend they beat us well. We scraped past Italy in the 6 Nations by the skin of our teeth. If you follow the logic then things don't look that rosy.

Podge_irl wrote: »

His inability to win games he really should seems to be a pretty good indicator.

Fixed that for you....Scotland, South Africa, Wales, England and France on at least 1 occassion.

wixfjord wrote: »

I seriously hope we've a new backs playbook up our sleeves for the WC

I was clinging to that one myself last week, but at this stage even if we do I can't see how we're just going to pull it together in the competition itself having never tried it competitively.

CatFromHue · 29-08-2011 02:14PM

molloyjh wrote: »

To be fair we beat England in the 6 Nations, and well. Yet at the weekend they beat us well. We scraped past Italy in the 6 Nations by the skin of our teeth. If you follow the logic then things don't look that rosy.

Well would you be surprised if we beat Italy (which is what my comments were about)? I won't!

molloyjh · 29-08-2011 02:21PM

CatFromHue wrote: »

Well would you be surprised if we beat Italy (which is what my comments were about)? I won't!

From what I've seen so far I think it depends a lot on who is fit. I would like to think we will beat them, and we probably will. But it's far from guaranteed. I was just pointing out that the fact we beat a team in the 6 Nations doesn't mean we will beat them now. To answer the question, at this stage I wouldn't be surprised either way!

JRant · 29-08-2011 07:41PM

My own opinion would be that he's as good as gone now despite his recent contract extension for 2 main reasons
1: His win/loss ratio is getting out of control. We're losing to many games and in professional sport your only as good as your last performance.
2: He's lost the fans, the booing by some at the end of the England game is just the start I feel. If fans vote with there feet the IRFU will have to get rid of him as they have a huge debt to service(hence the 80/90 euro tickets).

Third_Echelon · 29-08-2011 08:27PM

JRant wrote: »

My own opinion would be that he's as good as gone now despite his recent contract extension for 2 main reasons
1: His win/loss ratio is getting out of control. We're losing to many games and in professional sport your only as good as your last performance.
2: He's lost the fans, the booing by some at the end of the England game is just the start I feel. If fans vote with there feet the IRFU will have to get rid of him as they have a huge debt to service(hence the 80/90 euro tickets).

I think you might be right....

I really don't understand the logic behind giving the coach a new contract before the world cup. Fair enough, it might give stability to the squad etc, but it doesn't give the coach an incentive to perform to the best of their ability. For me, Kidney has been living on that 09 grand slam for far too long and his record is poor enough since then...

It's just one thing after another with Kidney. His selections, his tactics, leaving it too late bringing on subs, picking players on past glory rather than form... things like that. I think beating England saved his job in March to be honest. If we had lost that match as well I think the general public would have called for his head. It definitely papered over a lot of cracks...

It's very hard to understand how a team that is mostly made up of Heineken Cup winners consistently underperforms. You have to look to the coaching staff as the problem. I honestly think he should have been given the boot after the 6 Nations. The lack of options to replace him could have been an issue alright. I think after the world cup he should do the right thing and step aside if we don't get out of the group or lose in the quarters with a whimper... It'll cost the IRFU a good chunk of change to sack him. We really need a southern hemisphere coach to get Ireland to the next level and compete consistenly with the best nations...

tolosenc · 29-08-2011 10:00PM

Third_Echelon wrote: »

It definitely papered over a lot of cracks...

Which a decent World Cup will do too. Which is why the decision to sack him needs to be taken, if not executed, now.

The next coach should have his contract run until the end of the 2016 Six Nations, so that they know full well that they're going to be assessed on their performance at the previous World Cup.

trackguy · 29-08-2011 10:16PM

tolosenc wrote: »

Which a decent World Cup will do too. Which is why the decision to sack him needs to be taken, if not executed, now.

The next coach should have his contract run until the end of the 2016 Six Nations, so that they know full well that they're going to be assessed on their performance at the previous World Cup.

This can't and won't be the case. Kidney's tenure has been geared towards the next 6 weeks. The preparations have been disastrous and I fear the tournament itself will be too but we'll wait and see.

The disappointing thing is the IRFU didn't 'wait and see' and gave Kidney a new contract before the WC. If that's not a bad omen I don;t know what is - 2007 anyone?

Personally, I think this coaching ticket has been very short-sighted. After the 2009 6 Nations and law changes in the following season, the change of playing style and the playing personnel needed to move on was not implemented.

Maybe the talent just wasn't available but we have no competition in a number of positions and little back-up in many too. Again, this is too similar to the situation in 2007.

I have no way of proving this but I've heard from a few people that's there is a strong possibility that BOD and SOB are fecked for the WC. To go with Wallace out and doubts surrounding the fitness of Bowe, Heaslip, Ferris, Kearney... I'm getting depressed.

Kidney is in serious need of a lot of luck me thinks.

petebricquette · 02-09-2011 01:07PM

trackguy wrote: »

I have no way of proving this but I've heard from a few people that's there is a strong possibility that BOD and SOB are fecked for the WC. To go with Wallace out and doubts surrounding the fitness of Bowe, Heaslip, Ferris, Kearney... I'm getting depressed.

Ah now, you're getting into the realm of completely unfounded conjecture there. BOD has a stinger and Seanie took a bit of a knock to the knee. It's hoped he'll be back for the US game but if not he'll be playing against the Aussies. All the others you've listed are completely fine and training at the moment with the exception of Kearney who has a slight groin strain. Very easily sorted.

Come on lads, it's the RWC! The biggest event in existence for our sport. Too exciting.

Should Declan Kidney be sacked after the world cup?

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