"Of being able to bow to the past, but not be bound by it." Queen Elisabeth IIt

vellocet · 25-08-2011 02:24PM

Laminations wrote: »

Exaggerate much?

I both live and work in the city centre. A 20 minute commute turned into a three hour one.

While most of the Gardaí were apologetic about the disruptions, some were very aggressive, and aggressive with the bewildered Porto fans trying to cross the quays from their fan zone to the stadium.

Laminations · 25-08-2011 02:24PM

vellocet wrote: »

No-one has issue with you disliking extremists.

People do have a problem with you condoning state supression of legitimate political protest and dissent.

At what point do you call stop? When certain general election posters are torn down by the cops? When Labour activists get harrassed? FG candidates getting detained?

What state suppression? Some anecdotal evidence over the internet? As for putting up posters you are not just allowed do this in protest when you feel like it. You need permission. Posters erected without permission are taken down. As for the leaflets, to make any judgement on these I'd have to see their content.

Laminations · 25-08-2011 02:25PM

vellocet wrote: »

I both live and work in the city centre. A 20 minute commute turned into a three hour one.

While most of the Gardaí were apologetic about the disruptions, some were very aggressive, and aggressive with the bewildered Porto fans trying to cross the quays from their fan zone to the stadium.

My comment was about your 'biggest sporting event in a generation' remark. Not exactly true now is it.

FTA69 · 25-08-2011 02:26PM

Laminations wrote: »

Where were your banners saying 'Fund communities, not <insert foreign dignitary here> visits'? Huh? May this have been specific protest against Britain...

Of course it was a protest against the British monarchy, she is commander in chief of the British Army. As much as I have a problem with monarchy in general, the Prince of Monaco doesn't head up an occupying force in Ireland. Nor has he presided over an organisation that has committed human rights abuses aplenty in my own country. Nor had he agents who colluded in the mass murder of Irish citizens and then refused a request to disclose files on the issue. Your comparisons are vapid to be honest, pure tripe.

And as for confiscating ideas? If the cops start confiscating any forward thinking constructive ideas you have let me know. As for confiscating hate-filled propagandist bile? Meh.

So here we have it, for all your bleating about democracy and the institutions of the state and all of that lark you really don't even believe in it yourself. You feel it perfectly acceptable for the secret police to run around the place stifling legal political activity because it doesn't suit you or your agenda. No surprise there, Kevin O'Higgins had his supporters too I suppose. Unfortunately
it's a gombeen tradition that'll be here for years to come.

vellocet · 25-08-2011 02:27PM

Laminations wrote: »

Oh and vellocet, I'm still waiting for a response on the following. A retraction of your incorrect assertion will do.

What incorrect assertion? We were promised a tourist bonanza if we doffed the cap. It didn't happen. Its a fair comment.

vellocet · 25-08-2011 02:28PM

Laminations wrote: »

My comment was about your 'biggest sporting event in a generation' remark. Not exactly true now is it.

A UEFA Cup final? Other than the Ryder Cup, nothing has ever come close.

vellocet · 25-08-2011 02:29PM

Laminations wrote: »

What state suppression? Some anecdotal evidence over the internet? As for putting up posters you are not just allowed do this in protest when you feel like it. You need permission. Posters erected without permission are taken down. As for the leaflets, to make any judgement on these I'd have to see their content.

Anecdotal? I had to do it twice a day for a week.

Are you now denying that there was the biggest security operation in the history of the state to keep her away from the citizens of Ireland?

Laminations · 25-08-2011 02:35PM

FTA69 wrote: »

Of course it was a protest against the British monarchy, she is commander in chief of the British Army. As much as I have a problem with monarchy in general, the Prince of Monaco doesn't head up an occupying force in Ireland. Nor has he presided over an organisation that has committed human rights abuses aplenty in my own country. Nor had he agents who colluded in the mass murder of Irish citizens and then refused a request to disclose files on the issue. Your comparisons are vapid to be honest, pure tripe.

So dont protest under the pretense that its about money or funding. You hate the British and their monarchy, at least be open about it. Then the cops can identify you sooner and shut you down for your anti-Brit incitement of hatred.

So here we have it, for all your bleating about democracy and the institutions of the state and all of that lark you really don't even believe in it yourself. You feel it perfectly acceptable for the secret police to run around the place stifling legal political activity because it doesn't suit you or your agenda. No surprise there, Kevin O'Higgins had his supporters too I suppose. Unfortunately
it's a gombeen tradition that'll be here for years to come.

Secret police? Sounds spooky!
I believe the cops (or secret police when given jurisdiction by our democratically elected representatives) should interfere with hate filled protests, whether they be anti-British, anti-muslim, anti-gay or whatever.

Laminations · 25-08-2011 02:42PM

vellocet wrote: »

Anecdotal? I had to do it twice a day for a week.

Are you now denying that there was the biggest security operation in the history of the state to keep her away from the citizens of Ireland?

So security operations are now state suppression?
Yep I am denying that. Because you've made the mistake of squashing two things together, so as a statement, it is untrue. It may have been the biggest security operation in the state. But it was not to keep the queen away from the citizens of Ireland. It was to keep her safe from the idiot dissident republicans

FTA69 · 25-08-2011 02:48PM

So dont protest under the pretense that its about money or funding.

It's a fair comment, especially because it reaped no financial dividends in the form of tourism.

You hate the British and their monarchy

I've nothing against British people, I just oppose the notion that a part of Ireland should remain under British rule and that the British state has participated in a 25 year violent conflict in Ireland to that effect. Or is this one of those arguments along the lines of "Irish Republicanism is fascism" á la Ruth Dudley Edwards? You'll be telling us Republicans "ethnically cleansed" Protestants next, that's usually where that ridiculous line ends up at one point or another.

Secret police? Sounds spooky!
I believe the cops (or secret police when given jurisdiction by our democratically elected representatives) should interfere with hate filled protests, whether they be anti-British, anti-muslim, anti-gay or whatever.

"Fund Communities Not Royal Visits."

It's definitely up there with the Blood Libel and the Protocols of the Elders of Zion alright

Laminations · 25-08-2011 02:59PM

FTA69 wrote: »

It's a fair comment, especially because it reaped no financial dividends in the form of tourism.

I've nothing against British people, I just oppose the notion that a part of Ireland should remain under British rule and that the British state has participated in a 25 year violent conflict in Ireland to that effect. Or is this one of those arguments along the lines of "Irish Republicanism is fascism" á la Ruth Dudley Edwards? You'll be telling us Republicans "ethnically cleansed" Protestants next, that's usually where that ridiculous line ends up at one point or another.

You are not republicans. You have hijacked that name from better men.

"Fund Communities Not Royal Visits."

It's definitely up there with the Blood Libel and the Protocols of the Elders of Zion alright

And that is what your leaflet said? Waste of time and paper if it was. I would guess the leaflet was full of propagandist bile

Laminations · 25-08-2011 03:06PM

vellocet wrote: »

What incorrect assertion? We were promised a tourist bonanza if we doffed the cap. It didn't happen. Its a fair comment.

You stated there were 100,000 fewer Brits in Q2 2011 than Q2 2010. Back that up or retract it.

FTA69 · 25-08-2011 03:15PM

http://www.eirigi.org/pdfs/poblacht_na_noibrithe/Poblacht_na_nOibrithe_apr11_britroyal.pdf

That was the leaflet, nothing to do with incitement to hatred against the British people in it.

You are not republicans. You have hijacked that name from better men.

Blah blah blah. A hundred years ago today John Redmond was saying the same crap to James Connolly.

In a further twist of irony you're accusing me of being a fascistic racist and at the same time you're the one advocating that police misuse legislation to prevent political expression.

Hilarious.

vellocet · 25-08-2011 03:47PM

Laminations wrote: »

So dont protest under the pretense that its about money or funding. You hate the British and their monarchy, at least be open about it. Then the cops can identify you sooner and shut you down for your anti-Brit incitement of hatred.

This really is getting bizarre now.

Laminations wrote: »

Secret police? Sounds spooky!
I believe the cops (or secret police when given jurisdiction by our democratically elected representatives) should interfere with hate filled protests, whether they be anti-British, anti-muslim, anti-gay or whatever.

So 'hate' is the denominator now. Can I ask what scale or terms of reference a protest or movement be judged on so it can be classed as hate filled or not?

Love the fact you have managed to compare Irish Republicanism with homophobia.

Does this 'rule' apply to anti-hopsital closures, anti-cutbacks marches? From the sounds of it the march against the Omagh bombers would be out too. You have been asked before, where do you draw the line about what political thought and agitation is banned?

Laminations · 25-08-2011 04:42PM

FTA69 wrote: »

http://www.eirigi.org/pdfs/poblacht_na_noibrithe/Poblacht_na_nOibrithe_apr11_britroyal.pdf

That was the leaflet, nothing to do with incitement to hatred against the British people in it.

Blah blah blah. A hundred years ago today John Redmond was saying the same crap to James Connolly.

In a further twist of irony you're accusing me of being a fascistic racist and at the same time you're the one advocating that police misuse legislation to prevent political expression.

Hilarious.

Eirigi. That bastion of upstanding characters. Whatever about SF being a minority representation, Eirigi represents nobody but louts. Eirigi, trying to compare yourselves to James Connolly. Laughable. And what a ridiculous defense. If i said i was christ and you said i was a looper, its not a great defense to say 'ah typical, thats exactly what the Romans said about jesus'. You are nothing like Connolly. He would be ashamed of you as most of ireland are. With your silly hate-filled 'BRITAIN OUT' leaflets. Funny also how you complain about freedom of speech when you hijack other people's legitimate protests and shout them down. More people in Ireland would shout 'Eirigi out', your existence is an insult to this republic and a defiance of the irish people. You have no respect for democracy. By you I'm referring to Eirigi - that bastion of upstanding characters...

vellocet · 25-08-2011 04:59PM

Laminations wrote: »

More people in Ireland would shout 'Eirigi out',

But would you let them Laminations? Or would that be a hate filled 'out' and therefore to be clamped down on?

Laminations wrote: »

your existence is an insult to this republic and a defiance of the irish people. You have no respect for democracy. By you I'm referring to Eirigi - that bastion of upstanding characters...

Oh please. I'm no eirigi fan, but you indicate far more disdain for democracy than they do.

They are anti-GFA. That is their right. Are you saying FF should disband because they lost the election? That is as disrepectful to democracy. Ok, thats actually a good idea, but you get my point. One of the reasons the country is where it is was a lack of vibrant opposition, both in the Dail and in the community.

Laminations · 25-08-2011 05:08PM

vellocet wrote: »

But would you let them Laminations? Or would that be a hate filled 'out' and therefore to be clamped down on?

Being Eirigi is a choice. Being British is not. Being British born and raised in Ireland is not.

vellocet · 25-08-2011 05:33PM

Laminations wrote: »

Being Eirigi is a choice. Being British is not. Being British born and raised in Ireland is not.

Again, I fail to see the relevence here.

Are you implying that eirigi are explicitly anti-British people as opposed to a British presence in Ireland? I really hope not, because that would be a bewilderingly daft statement.

It is perfectly reasonable to be opposed to the foreign policy and behaviour of a state without being xenephobic against its population. But you know this.

Black Swan · 25-08-2011 06:48PM

MOD FRIENDLY REMINDER:
Heated debate is acceptable, provided it doesn't get too personal. A few of the posts on this thread are getting too personal. Please focus on the content of the discussion, and not each other.

Thanks,
Black Swan

anymore · 25-08-2011 06:54PM

FTA69 wrote: »

It wasn't the ordinary Irish person who concocted this visit and it wasn't them trying to hype it up out of proportion; it was the establishment i.e. the government, the elite, the media etc, there was certainly no cry from the general population for such an initiative. Thankfully the majority (apart from a few gombeens in my own city) ignored the thing for the load of nonsense that it was.

Funny thing about the Queens visit to Cork. I had an appointment on St Lukes Hill ( Just above McCurtian St )that Afternoon and went especially early thinking both getting in and getting parking might be difficult on account of crowds &/ parking restrictions. It was the opposite - no probs at all ! Maybe she should come more often ?

FTA69 · 25-08-2011 06:59PM

Laminations wrote: »

Eirigi. That bastion of upstanding characters. Whatever about SF being a minority representation, Eirigi represents nobody but louts. Eirigi, trying to compare yourselves to James Connolly. Laughable. And what a ridiculous defense. If i said i was christ and you said i was a looper, its not a great defense to say 'ah typical, thats exactly what the Romans said about jesus'. You are nothing like Connolly. He would be ashamed of you as most of ireland are. With your silly hate-filled 'BRITAIN OUT' leaflets. Funny also how you complain about freedom of speech when you hijack other people's legitimate protests and shout them down. More people in Ireland would shout 'Eirigi out', your existence is an insult to this republic and a defiance of the irish people. You have no respect for democracy. By you I'm referring to Eirigi - that bastion of upstanding characters...

Same nonsense as your last post only with added vitriol and a minimum of argument. Connolly in his day was part of an unrepresentative political minority who protested against a royal visit and was ridiculed by the respectable nationalist class for doing so, like today his dissent was judged to be hysterical nonsense and like today the cops were all over him trying to censor him and trying to persecute him. Like today he had plenty of eejits back then telling him he deserved all of this and calling him an embarassment etc. Unlike Éirigi however, Connolly was wedded to the idea of armed struggle and presided over an unlawful military organisation. Unlike Éirigi also, he couldn't even win a council seat such was his lack of mandate.

You must think he was a right bastard.

What's doubly hilarious is your assertion that a peaceful political party with no connections to militarism is akin to the bloody Red Brigades or some group like that. We're Irish citizens and we have a right to political organisation. I suggest you get over it.

FTA69 · 25-08-2011 07:01PM

anymore wrote: »

Funny thing about the Queens visit to Cork. I had an appointment on St Lukes Hill ( Just above McCurtian St )that Afternoon and went especially early thinking both getting in and getting parking might be difficult on account of crowds &/ parking restrictions. It was the opposite - no probs at all ! Maybe she should come more often ?

That's called Summer Hill, topped by Military Hill there just before you come to St Lukes.

There wasn't the heaving crowds I thought there'd be, but there were enough clowns out on the streets to cause sufficient embarrassment.

anymore · 25-08-2011 07:17PM

FTA69 wrote: »

That's called Summer Hill, topped by Military Hill there just before you come to St Lukes.

There wasn't the heaving crowds I thought there'd be, but there were enough clowns out on the streets to cause sufficient embarrassment.

Driving back down by the city hall and driving out the link up the airport road was great - hardly any cars and Guards at all the cross roads - didnt know we had so many guards !
There was even big banners wishing the Roal Couple goodbye etc on the bridges over the Link - they were definitely a bit OTT !

Shea O'Meara · 26-08-2011 05:50AM

Erinfan wrote: »

Hi folks.
I am neither Irish nor British

After Her Majesty Queen Elisabeth II historic visit to Ireland 100 days ago and unprecedented gestures of reconciliation I would like to have posters thoughts on this historic occasion.

A visit full of symbolisms.
.............

My questions are:

Could the Queen spell “SORRY” if not why?
Why some people, notably in NI, can not pronounce the speech of Irish president?
What next?

Excerpts from Queen and President speeches.

In her response ROI president had displayed an unprecedented sense of forgivness

Her platitudes were of no merit. Had they come from someone who counted on the political stage, they still would have fallen short of any profound meaning.
It was a PR exercise for the Queen, with little or nothing to do with our history other than a symbol of the British crown being in the Republic.
The same could have been achieved if she got off the plane, had tea with the Pres and ****ed off home again. All the rest was dressing.
On the political side of things it is pretty much a given, from both sides, that the Queen herself can't be held accountable or expected to represent the British Empire as it was and the collection of countries who stuck around for the hang over after the party was over.
So we can't point the finger of blame at her and with the same token, we can't give any weight to whatever 'I have a dream' cak was written for her.
All in all, pro loyalists will say how classy the broad was, nationalists may have had a bee in their bonnet or not given a flying and the aul' dears might have liked her hat.
She skirted around anything which required a backbone to address. She is indeed just an old dear, no different from or worthy of time than a stamp.
For me it was a waste of money and effort.

Fratton Fred · 26-08-2011 09:57AM

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

Her platitudes were of no merit. Had they come from someone who counted on the political stage, they still would have fallen short of any profound meaning.
It was a PR exercise for the Queen, with little or nothing to do with our history other than a symbol of the British crown being in the Republic.
The same could have been achieved if she got off the plane, had tea with the Pres and ****ed off home again. All the rest was dressing.
On the political side of things it is pretty much a given, from both sides, that the Queen herself can't be held accountable or expected to represent the British Empire as it was and the collection of countries who stuck around for the hang over after the party was over.
So we can't point the finger of blame at her and with the same token, we can't give any weight to whatever 'I have a dream' cak was written for her.
All in all, pro loyalists will say how classy the broad was, nationalists may have had a bee in their bonnet or not given a flying and the aul' dears might have liked her hat.
She skirted around anything which required a backbone to address. She is indeed just an old dear, no different from or worthy of time than a stamp.
For me it was a waste of money and effort.

She stood next to the Irish president and bowed her head for a minutes silence at the memorial to all those that gave their lives for Irish freedom.

How the **** can that be meaningless?

anymore · 26-08-2011 02:06PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

She stood next to the Irish president and bowed her head for a minutes silence at the memorial to all those that gave their lives for Irish freedom.

How the **** can that be meaningless?

Because it is exactly the kind of meaningless ceremonial nonsense that politicians, Presidents and Monarchs get up to to justify these jaunts around the world. Just as they are forgmarched over to the Gunniss brewry.
How many press interviews did she do, how many journalsits questions did she answer ?

Fratton Fred · 26-08-2011 02:19PM

anymore wrote: »

Because it is exactly the kind of meaningless ceremonial nonsense that politicians, Presidents and Monarchs get up to to justify these jaunts around the world. Just as they are forgmarched over to the Gunniss brewry.
How many press interviews did she do, how many journalsits questions did she answer ?

Meaningless ceremony? Are the annual ceremonies marking the 1916 uprising meaningless?

Answer questions on what exactly, the weather?

The ice had to broken some time and Liz took a sledge hammer to it in a very well informed and dignified fashion.

Shea O'Meara · 26-08-2011 07:24PM

It can't be two ways at once.
If she is merely a figurehead and no more personally responsible for the hundreds of years that went before and the remaining occupied territory than you or I, why would anything she has to say relating to the issue be of any worth?
She's a walking flag. Also, she said **** all, it was icing with no cake.

Fratton Fred · 26-08-2011 07:32PM

So what exactly is it you want then?

It was a state visit, one head of state inviting another over.
It seems to be that no matter what the UK's head of state does it will never be enough. Holding a grudge is much easier than being positive and looking to the future.

anymore · 27-08-2011 05:08PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Meaningless ceremony? Are the annual ceremonies marking the 1916 uprising meaningless?

Answer questions on what exactly, the weather?

The ice had to broken some time and Liz took a sledge hammer to it in a very well informed and dignified fashion.

Unless I happened to hear some reference on the media I would not be aware at all of the easter 1916 ceremonies so clearly they dont have any great impact on my life.

As for your second question, you merely underline the sheer uselessness of these visits.

As for breaking the ice, there was no ice to be broken - this wasnt the equivalent of the Berlin Wall crumbling !

"Of being able to bow to the past, but not be bound by it." Queen Elisabeth IIt

Comments