"Of being able to bow to the past, but not be bound by it." Queen Elisabeth IIt

Erinfan

Hi folks.
I am neither Irish nor British


After Her Majesty Queen Elisabeth II historic visit to Ireland 100 days ago and unprecedented gestures of reconciliation I would like to have posters thoughts on this historic occasion.

A visit full of symbolisms.

Queen wore green at her arrival in Casemat aerodrome. The base was named after Sir Roger Casemat ,an Irish revolutionary who was hanged in 1916 for his role in the Easter rising revolt.

She laid a wreath in memory of all who died for Irish Independence in the Garden of Remembrance.

She paid a courtesy visit to Guinness storehouse where she was offered a pint of famous Irish beverage.

She made a trip to Croke Park, where 14 innocent people were massacred.

In green again she toured the Rock of Cashell, the most popular Irish tourist site. Prior to the Norman invasion, it was the traditional seat of the kings of Munster for several hundred years.

Above all this symbolic gesture there was also facts which culminated at the state diner gave in her honour by ROI president.

In the heartbreaking speech ever delivered by a British monarch,Queen Elisabeth II embarked her audience to revisted Anglo-Irish troubles relations

The monarch opened her speech - made in the same room which once housed the British rule -d - in Irish.

Of course the Queen never spell the word “SORRY” as she never said it to Americans or to Indians or to South Africans.

She recognised the right of Irish for independence and respects those who secured this goal. She accepts the British past wrongdoings.

Many around the world were amazed by this visit and many who are obsessed by this Island while , have neither cultural nor blood tights with It.

Queen Elizabeth's sincere expression of sympathy to all those who had suffered in the course of the conflict was very genuine .

Her visit to the Garden of Remembrance is a significant act of reconciliation.

My questions are:

Could the Queen spell “SORRY” if not why?
Why some people, notably in NI, can not pronounce the speech of Irish president?
What next?

Excerpts from Queen and President speeches.

“A Uachtaráin agus a chairde (President and friends). .
“Prince Philip and I are delighted to be here, and to experience at first hand Ireland’s world-famous hospitality.

“Madam President, speaking here in Dublin Castle it is impossible to ignore the weight of history, as it was yesterday when you and I laid wreaths at the Garden of Remembrance.

“Indeed, so much of this visit reminds us of the complexity of our history, its many layers and traditions, but also the importance of forbearance and conciliation. Of being able to bow to the past, but not be bound by it.

“Of course, the relationship has not always been straightforward; nor has the record over the centuries been entirely benign. It is a sad and regrettable reality that through history our islands have experienced more than their fair share of heartache, turbulence and loss.

“These events have touched us all, many of us personally, and are a painful legacy. We can never forget those who have died or been injured, and their families. To all those who have suffered as a consequence of our troubled past I extend my sincere thoughts and deep sympathy.

“With the benefit of historical hindsight we can all see things which we would wish had been done differently or not at all. But it is also true that no-one who looked to the future over the past centuries could have imagined the strength of the bonds that are now in place between the governments and the people of our two nations, the spirit of partnership that we now enjoy, and the lasting rapport between us. No-one here this evening could doubt that heartfelt desire of our two nations.

“For the world moves on quickly. The challenges of the past have been replaced by new economic challenges which will demand the same imagination and courage. The lessons from the peace process are clear; whatever life throws at us, our individual responses will be all the stronger for working together and sharing the load.”

In her response ROI president had displayed an unprecedented sense of forgivness

“This visit is a culmination of the success of the Peace Process. It is an acknowledgment that while we cannot change the past, we have chosen to change the future.

“The relationship between our two neighbouring nations is long, complex and has often been turbulent. Like the tides that surround each of us, we have shaped and altered each other. This evening we celebrate a new chapter in our relationship that may still be a work in progress, but happily, has also become a work of progress, of partnership and friendship.

“The two way flow of people between these islands goes back millennia. This very room is dedicated to St Patrick, whose name is synonymous with Ireland. Yet he is reputed to have been born in Britain. Patrick’s life as the man who brought Christianity to Ireland is illustrative of the considerable exchange of ideas and knowledge that there has been between our two nations throughout history.

“It is only right that on this historic visit we should reflect on the difficult centuries which have brought us to this point. Inevitably where there are the colonisers and the colonised, the past is a repository of sources of bitter division. The harsh facts cannot be altered nor loss nor grief erased but with time and generosity, interpretations and perspectives can soften and open up space for new accommodations.

“As the first citizen of Ireland, like my fellow countrymen and women, I am deeply proud of Ireland’s difficult journey to national sovereignty. I am proud of how we have used our independence to build a republic which asserts the religious and civil liberty, equal rights and equal opportunities not just of all its citizens but of all human beings. I am particularly proud of this island’s peace-makers who having experienced first-hand the appalling toxic harvest of failing to resolve old hatreds and political differences, rejected the perennial culture of conflict and compromised enough to let a new future in.

“The Good Friday Agreement represented a fresh start and committed us all to partnership, equality and mutual respect as the basis of future relationships. Under the Agreement, unionism and nationalism were accorded equal recognition as political aspirations and philosophies. Northern Ireland’s present status within the United Kingdom was solemnly recognised, as was the option for a united Ireland if that secures the agreement and consent of a majority of the people of Northern Ireland.

“W.B. Yeats once wrote in another context that “peace comes dropping slow.”
“The journey to peace has been cruelly slow and arduous but it has taken us to a place where hope thrives and the past no longer threatens to overwhelm our present and our future. The legacy of the Good Friday Agreement is already profound and encouraging. We all of us have a duty to protect, nurture and develop it.

“Your Majesty, from our previous conversations I know of your deep support for the peace process and your longing to see relationships between our two countries sustained on a template of good neighbourliness.
“Your visit here is an important sign - among a growing number of signs - that we have embarked on the fresh start envisaged in the Good Friday Agreement. Your visit is a formal recognition of what has, for many years, been a reality – that Ireland and Britain are neighbours, equals, colleagues and friends. Though the seas between us have often been stormy, we have chosen to build a solid and enduring bridge of friendship between us and to cross it to a new, a happier future.

Erinfan

A Uachtaráin agus a chairde (President and friends).
Prince Philip and I are delighted to be here, and to experience at first hand Ireland’s world-famous hospitality.

Together we have much to celebrate: the ties between our people, the shared values, and the economic, business and cultural links that make us so much more than just neighbours, that make us firm friends and equal partners.
Madam President, speaking here in Dublin Castle it is impossible to ignore the weight of history, as it was yesterday when you and I laid wreaths at the Garden of Remembrance.

Indeed, so much of this visit reminds us of the complexity of our history, its many layers and traditions, but also the importance of forbearance and conciliation. Of being able to bow to the past, but not be bound by it.

Of course, the relationship has not always been straightforward; nor has the record over the centuries been entirely benign. It is a sad and regrettable reality that through history our islands have experienced more than their fair share of heartache, turbulence and loss.

These events have touched us all, many of us personally, and are a painful legacy. We can never forget those who have died or been injured, and their families. To all those who have suffered as a consequence of our troubled past I extend my sincere thoughts and deep sympathy. With the benefit of historical hindsight we can all see things which we would wish had been done differently or not at all. But it is also true that no-one who looked to the future over the past centuries could have imagined the strength of the bonds that are now in place between the governments and the people of our two nations, the spirit of partnership that we now enjoy, and the lasting rapport between us. No-one here this evening could doubt that heartfelt desire of our two nations.

Madam President, you have done a great deal to promote this understanding and reconciliation. You set out to build bridges. And I have seen at first hand your success in bringing together different communities and traditions on this island. You have also shed new light on the sacrifice of those who served in the First World War. Even as we jointly opened the Messines Peace Park in 1998, it was difficult to look ahead to the time when you and I would be standing together at Islandbridge as we were today.

That transformation is also evident in the establishment of a successful power-sharing Executive in Northern Ireland. A knot of history that was painstakingly loosened by the British and Irish Governments together with the strength, vision and determination of the political parties in Northern Ireland.
What were once only hopes for the future have now come to pass; it is almost exactly 13 years since the overwhelming majority of people in Ireland and Northern Ireland voted in favour of the agreement signed on Good Friday 1998, paving the way for Northern Ireland to become the exciting and inspirational place that it is today.

I applaud the work of all those involved in the peace process, and of all those who support and nurture peace, including members of the police, the Gardaí, and the other emergency services, and those who work in the communities, the churches and charitable bodies like Co-operation Ireland. Taken together, their work not only serves as a basis for reconciliation between our people and communities, but it gives hope to other peacemakers across the world that through sustained effort, peace can and will prevail.

For the world moves on quickly. The challenges of the past have been replaced by new economic challenges which will demand the same imagination and courage. The lessons from the peace process are clear; whatever life throws at us, our individual responses will be all the stronger for working together and sharing the load.

There are other stories written daily across these islands which do not find their voice in solemn pages of history books, or newspaper headlines, but which are at the heart of our shared narrative. Many British families have members who live in this country, as many Irish families have close relatives in the United Kingdom.

These families share the two islands; they have visited each other and have come home to each other over the years. They are the ordinary people who yearned for the peace and understanding we now have between our two nations and between the communities within those two nations; a living testament to how much in common we have.

These ties of family, friendship and affection are our most precious resource. They are the lifeblood of the partnership across these islands, a golden thread that runs through all our joint successes so far, and all we will go on to achieve. They are a reminder that we have much to do together to build a future for all our grandchildren: the kind of future our grandparents could only dream of.

So we celebrate together the widespread spirit of goodwill and deep mutual understanding that has served to make the relationship more harmonious, close as good neighbours should always be.

http://www.royal.gov.uk/LatestNewsandDiary/Speechesandarticles/2011/TheQueensspeechattheIrishStateDinner18May2011.aspx

Erinfan

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0518/breaking64.html

Your Majesty, Your Royal Highness, Taoiseach, Prime Minister, First Minister, Tanaiste, Foreign Secretary, Distinguished Guests:

It is my pleasure to welcome you to Dublin Castle this evening on this the first ever State Visit to take place between our two countries.
This visit is a culmination of the success of the Peace Process. It is an acknowledgment that while we cannot change the past, we have chosen to change the future.
The relationship between our two neighbouring nations is long, complex and has often been turbulent. Like the tides that surround each of us, we have shaped and altered each other. This evening we celebrate a new chapter in our relationship that may still be a work in progress, but happily, has also become a work of progress, of partnership and friendship.

The contemporary British-Irish relationship is multifaceted and strongly underpinned by the most important connection of all — people and families.
Large numbers of British born people live here in Ireland and many more of our citizens have British backgrounds, ancestry and identity. In Britain, those of Irish birth, descent or identity are numbered in millions.

The two way flow of people between these islands goes back millennia. This very room is dedicated to St Patrick, whose name is synonymous with Ireland. Yet he is reputed to have been born in Britain. Patrick’s life as the man who brought Christianity to Ireland is illustrative of the considerable exchange of ideas and knowledge that there has been between our two nations throughout history.

It has been a fascinating two way street with Britain bestowing on Ireland our system of common law, parliamentary tradition, independent civil service, gracious Georgian architecture, love of English literature and our obsession with the Premiership. Conversely, Britain greatly benefitted from the Irish genius of the likes of — Edmund Burke, the Duke of Wellington, Daniel O’Connell, Charles Stuart Parnell, Maria Edgeworth, Oscar Wilde, George Bernard Shaw and even Father Ted. Indeed, it was Shaw who wryly observed that:
“England had conquered Ireland, so there was nothing for it but to come over and conquer England.”

However, even Shaw might not have dared to imagine that this cultural conquest would come in time to include rugby and cricket.

The Irish in Britain and the British in Ireland both as individuals and communities, have made an invaluable contribution to both our homelands while also cementing the links between us.

Today those links provide the foundation for a thriving economic relationship. As close trade and investment partners and as partners in the European Union, Britain and Ireland are essential to each other’s economic wellbeing. It is imperative that we work fluently together to promote the conditions that stimulate prosperity and opportunity for all of our people.

It is only right that on this historic visit we should reflect on the difficult centuries which have brought us to this point. Inevitably where there are the colonisers and the colonised, the past is a repository of sources of bitter division. The harsh facts cannot be altered nor loss nor grief erased but with time and generosity, interpretations and perspectives can soften and open up space for new accommodations.

Yesterday, Your Majesty, you visited our Garden of Remembrance and laid a wreath there in honour of the sacrifice and achievement of those who fought against Britain for Irish independence. Today at Islandbridge, just as we did at the Island of Ireland Peace Park at Messines in 1998, we commemorated together the thousands of Irishmen who gave their lives in British uniform in the Great War.

As the first citizen of Ireland, like my fellow countrymen and women, I am deeply proud of Ireland’s difficult journey to national sovereignty. I am proud of how we have used our independence to build a republic which asserts the religious and civil liberty, equal rights and equal opportunities not just of all its citizens but of all human beings. I am particularly proud of this island’s peace-makers who having experienced first-hand the appalling toxic harvest of failing to resolve old hatreds and political differences, rejected the perennial culture of conflict and compromised enough to let a new future in.

The Good Friday Agreement represented a fresh start and committed us all to partnership, equality and mutual respect as the basis of future relationships. Under the Agreement, unionism and nationalism were accorded equal recognition as political aspirations and philosophies. Northern Ireland’s present status within the United Kingdom was solemnly recognised, as was the option for a united Ireland if that secures the agreement and consent of a majority of the people of Northern Ireland.

The collegial and cooperative relationship between the British and Irish Governments was crucial to the success of the Peace Process and we can thank the deepening engagement between us as equal partners in the European Union for the growth of friendship and trust. The Governments’ collaborative efforts to bring peace and power-sharing to Northern Ireland have yielded huge dividends for the peoples of these two islands.

W.B. Yeats once wrote in another context that “peace comes dropping slow.”

The journey to peace has been cruelly slow and arduous but it has taken us to a place where hope thrives and the past no longer threatens to overwhelm our present and our future. The legacy of the Good Friday Agreement is already profound and encouraging. We all of us have a duty to protect, nurture and develop it.

Your Majesty, from our previous conversations I know of your deep support for the peace process and your longing to see relationships between our two countries sustained on a template of good neighbourliness.

Your visit here is an important sign - among a growing number of signs - that we have embarked on the fresh start envisaged in the Good Friday Agreement. Your visit is a formal recognition of what has, for many years, been a reality – that Ireland and Britain are neighbours, equals, colleagues and friends. Though the seas between us have often been stormy, we have chosen to build a solid and enduring bridge of friendship between us and to cross it to a new, a happier future.

Your Majesty, your Royal Highness it is in that spirit of mutual respect and warm friendship, it is in faith in that future, that I offer you the traditional warm Irish welcome - cead mile failte - one hundred thousand welcomes.

I now invite you, distinguished guests, to stand and join me in a toast:
To the health and happiness of Her Majesty and His Royal Highness;
To the well-being and prosperity of the people of Britain;
To the cause of peace and reconciliation on this island;
And to continued friendship and kinship between the peoples of Ireland and Britain.

Go raibh maith agaibh.

johnnyskeleton

Might I suggest getting a blog?

mikemac

Of course the Queen never spell the word “SORRY” as she never said it to Americans or to Indians or to South Africans.

Could the Queen spell “SORRY” if not why?

You're dragging up the American Revolution?
Where does it stop?
Do you want Enda Kenny to apologise for Irish raiding parties and kidnapping St. Patrick?

Or maybe the Danish government to apologize for their Viking past?

Why some people, notably in NI, can not pronounce the speech of Irish president?

Who cares?
I can't pronounce most Welsh words but I like the lyrical nature of the language and the people.

Sunnyisland

Even though when i heard about the vist at first i was against it, I did come around to accepting it would be a good thing for both our respective countries and communities(as in NI) and i was more than pleasantly surprised with the outcome, Imo it went very well and was a truly historic moment in a positive way.Hope we can build on it.

mikemac

realies wrote: »

Imo it went very well

I thought it was a disaster
I was waiting for Philip to create a gaffe and insult the entire nation
He has a track record after all

When he had the hurley I was just wishing he'd wave it around and talk about beating the peasants
Never happened, on his best behaviour

Sulmac

mikemac wrote: »

You're dragging up the American Revolution?
Where does it stop?
Do you want Enda Kenny to apologise for Irish raiding parties and kidnapping St. Patrick?

Or maybe the Danish government to apologize for their Viking past?

They did...

paky

whatabout the prisoners?

Wolfe Tone

Initially I was dead set against it, in hindsight it wasn't as bad as it could have been.

I felt her speech was pathetic and the line "relationship has not always been straightforward; nor has the record over the centuries been entirely benign" was particularly insulting and the understatement of the decade. I was ashamed and embarrassed by those who made fools out of themselves (particularly McAleese) with their reaction to the Brit Queen speaking a few words of Irish. I thought McAleese inviting loyalist paramilitaries to the wreath laying ceremony was an utter disgrace, the recent events in Belfast have only reinforced that view.

Overall I think that the entire episode was an ego trip for McAleese and a massive waste of money which could have been better spent.

I was a bit disappointed at how everyone was so busy playing happy families they ignored outstanding issues such as the files on the Dublin and Monaghan bombings. The words about us being "firm friends" and "equal partners" seem very hollow and meaningless in light of such things. Actions, not words please.

On a somewhat positive note I felt her bowing her head and laying a wreath at the garden of remembrance was a poignant moment, however the likelihood is that the very men and women who it is dedicated to would probably be disgusted at that action occurring while a portion of the country they died to free is still held by Britain.

If some benefit was got from the visit then I suppose in hindsight it wasn't as bad an idea as I originally thought, I still think it cost too much for something that wasn't really necessary.

TBH I haven't given it much though since it ended.

I'm still waiting for all the tourists btw!!

dsmythy

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

I'm still waiting for all the tourists btw!!

Are the figures out yet?

Erinfan

I'm sorry for the long posts Mr. Moderator. It is just for those who are not very familiar with the British Irish affairs and have not read the transcript of McAleese speech for example as it has not attracted so much media attention.

anymore

Clearly her majesty's subjects in london werent too impressed by the new realtionship as they burned down a chunk of london - it was of course the grouse season so the royals were quite happily slaughtering helpless birds reared for the slaughter and driven onto the guns by the peasantry.
Meanwhile her subjects in afghanistan were not quite as successful as quelling the local peasantry as the afghan peasants play unfair by shooting back at the chinless wonders.

getzls

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Initially I was dead set against it, in hindsight it wasn't as bad as it could have been.

straightforward; nor has the record over the centuries been entirely benign" was particularly insulting ended.

QUOTE]

You seem to be very easily insulted.

anymore

getzls wrote: »

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Initially I was dead set against it, in hindsight it wasn't as bad as it could have been.

straightforward; nor has the record over the centuries been entirely benign" was particularly insulting ended.

QUOTE]

You seem to be very easily insulted.

Given the fawning cringe inducing manner which so many in the media fell over themsleves to be part of this pantomine, then a little balance is no bad thing.

Fratton Fred

Erinfan,

some people in Ireland aren't interested in peace, reconciliation, cooperation, they are only interested in petty sniping and jeering at their neighbours.

anymore wrote: »

Clearly her majesty's subjects in london werent too impressed by the new realtionship as they burned down a chunk of london - it was of course the grouse season so the royals were quite happily slaughtering helpless birds reared for the slaughter and driven onto the guns by the peasantry.
Meanwhile her subjects in afghanistan were not quite as successful as quelling the local peasantry as the afghan peasants play unfair by shooting back at the chinless wonders.

it has less to do with history, more to do with sibling rivalry.

Sand

I dont think any apology would have meant much. Queen Elizabeth didnt have a hand in any crime I am aware of, so shes nothing to apologise for. And I wasnt injured by her, so I have nothing to seek apology for - other than the security for the visit locking me out of my own home for several hours.

The Provisional IRA claimed to act in the name of Ireland - a claim arguably endorsed by the constitutional claim by Ireland over Northern Ireland. Should Irish politicians tour the UK apologising to the families of various victims of Provo violence?

I think the focus on what are meaningless apologies by people and to people who have no involvement in the events undermine actual, real and genuine apologies. They in fact absolve actual wrongdoers from having to take responsibility for making their own apologies. The people who deserve apologies are the victims of various injustices - from the victims of terrorist atrocities to the likes of the Guilford 4/Birmingham 6. The people who ought to make an apology are those responsible for those acts.

This seeking of meaningless apologies for wrongs never suffered by the wider public is just pathetic wallowing in victimhood as an aspect of national identity. M.O.P.E.

cardwizzard

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Erinfan,

some people in Ireland aren't interested in peace, reconciliation, cooperation, they are only interested in petty sniping and jeering at their neighbours.



Funny that most of these people are from the North.

anymore

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Erinfan,

some people in Ireland aren't interested in peace, reconciliation, cooperation, they are only interested in petty sniping and jeering at their neighbours.



it has less to do with history, more to do with sibling rivalry.

The riots had something to do with sibling rivalry ???????
Speaking of siblings, doesnt Harry look so very different from William ?
I wonder if red hair runs in the Windsor family ?

AlekSmart

cardwizzard wrote: »

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Erinfan,


Funny that most of these people are from the North.

Oddly enough,it's not really funny at all,but well noticable that those "from the North" have a far better appreciation of the term "Activist" in all things,not merely Politics,and for sure not totally fixated upon Their Gracious Majesties either.

Have a listen at any large scale protest,be it Social,Political,Financial,or whatever and the number of spokespersons/contributors with a Northern Blás will be immediately apparent.

Does this mean it's all the Queen's fault ?

Wolfe Tone

dsmythy wrote: »

Are the figures out yet?

http://aprnonline.com/?p=86200

Fratton Fred

anymore wrote: »

The riots had something to do with sibling rivalry ???????
Speaking of siblings, doesnt Harry look so very different from William ?
I wonder if red hair runs in the Windsor family ?

The riots have **** all to do with this thread, neither do Harry and Wills. The only reason someone would bring either up is purely for trolling purposes.

By the way, google a picture of Diana's brother, red hair obviously runs in the Spencer family.

Nodin

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Erinfan,

some people in Ireland aren't interested in peace, reconciliation, cooperation, they are only interested in petty sniping and jeering at their neighbours.

.

I'd suggest that the removal of "in Ireland" would render that factually correct.

BlaasForRafa

getzls wrote: »

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Initially I was dead set against it, in hindsight it wasn't as bad as it could have been.

straightforward; nor has the record over the centuries been entirely benign" was particularly insulting ended.

QUOTE]

You seem to be very easily insulted.

Typical republican then really.

Sergeant

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

http://aprnonline.com/?p=86200

This might be a more reliable source.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/travel/2011/0730/1224301600531.html

MysticalRain

More here:
http://www.examiner.ie/ireland/influx-of-cruise-ship-tourists-spin-off-from-queens-visit-161586.html

gbee

The most significant thing for me was when the Queen broke away from security to go walk about in the City Of Cork after her visit to the English Market.

That was pretty much the last thing she did and it was not scripted [or if it was, she's fooled me!]

We have three factions in Ireland, those who don't care [the majority] those who want to be old Irish and those who want to stay British.

It's a very delicate situation as one false word could rekindle violence and bombings ~ the RAAAA has not gone away you know, they are still very active and we have the 100th anniversary of the Easter Rising approaching fast.

anymore

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The riots have **** all to do with this thread, neither do Harry and Wills. The only reason someone would bring either up is purely for trolling purposes.

By the way, google a picture of Diana's brother, red hair obviously runs in the Spencer family.

Well I dont quite know what the thread is actually about;
The following seem to be the questions asked :

My questions are:

Could the Queen spell “SORRY” if not why?
Why some people, notably in NI, can not pronounce the speech of Irish president?
What next?

Maybe it is a language issue, but the questions dont seem to make much sense ?

Yes there may be red hair in the maternal side, what about the paternal side ? early male baldness seems to be the norm here ..except for Harry.

ardmacha

People cannot be bound to the past, the sins of the father are not those of the son, unless he helped him commit them.

QEII was not responsible for the invasion of Ireland with its associated ethnic cleansing and murder, she was not responsible for the efforts to exterminate Irish culture and make us all British people, she was not responsible for the partition of Ireland and the sectarian institutions it created.

Provided that she, or governments she endorses, do not support British rule in Ireland, the promotion of British culture by a government ruling Ireland or support continuing partition then she is in the clear as she will not have made common cause with her ancestors.

Wolfe Tone

ardmacha wrote: »

People cannot be bound to the past, the sins of the father are not those of the son, unless he helped him commit them.

QEII was not responsible for the invasion of Ireland with its associated ethnic cleansing and murder, she was not responsible for the efforts to exterminate Irish culture and make us all British people, she was not responsible for the partition of Ireland and the sectarian institutions it created.

Provided that she, or governments she endorses, do not support British rule in Ireland, the promotion of British culture by a government ruling Ireland or support continuing partition then she is in the clear as she will not have made common cause with her ancestors.

She was however, the commander in chief of the British army who under her reign have murdered many Irish people, the obvious example being Bloody Sunday and Ballymurphy.

Yes, her position was and is one of symbolic leadership, but the trip was all about symbolism, and a symbolic apology for the deaths of innocents at her armies hands would have been hugely beneficial and healing I feel, unfortunately that was not the case.

anymore

ardmacha wrote: »

People cannot be bound to the past, the sins of the father are not those of the son, unless he helped him commit them.

QEII was not responsible for the invasion of Ireland with its associated ethnic cleansing and murder, she was not responsible for the efforts to exterminate Irish culture and make us all British people, she was not responsible for the partition of Ireland and the sectarian institutions it created.

Provided that she, or governments she endorses, do not support British rule in Ireland, the promotion of British culture by a government ruling Ireland or support continuing partition then she is in the clear as she will not have made common cause with her ancestors.

Your post is almost funny, the only thing that legitimises her sitting on the ' Throne of England' is the past !
Go into a court sometime and you may be unpleasantly surprised to see how much ' the past' , e.g precednt influences current affairs.
That said it is best to look on the English Monarch as a ' ventroloquist's dummy '. She says what she is told to say by the Government - indeed there is little enough reason to think that this particular lady cares very much one way or another about others - remember her ' annus horribilis' whinge fest ?

Laminations

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

I'm still waiting for all the tourists btw!!

How do ya like them apples?
http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0823/tourism-business.html

And before you squawk that this is just the general trend in tourism, trips by Irish abroad were only up 5.9%, compared to trips by visitors into Ireland up by15.6%

blahfckingblah

wasnt the europa league final at the same time? id like to see how many of these tourists were in porto and braga shirts

Laminations

blahfckingblah wrote: »

wasnt the europa league final at the same time? id like to see how many of these tourists were in porto and braga shirts

The biggest increase came from continental Europe, with visitor numbers to Ireland up 24%. Visits from Ireland's biggest tourism market, Britain, grew by 8.5%, while trips from North America were up 17%. Trips from other countries rose by 21.3%.

While the travelling football brigade might contribute to the continental Europe figure, it doesn't explain the other large increases.

blahfckingblah

Laminations wrote: »

While the travelling football brigade might contribute to the continental Europe figure, it doesn't explain the other large increases.

im not saying there wasnt an increase because of the visit but i think the timing of it was perfectly judged to take advantage of such events.

Laminations

blahfckingblah wrote: »

im not saying there wasnt an increase because of the visit.

Ok then.

Wolfe Tone asked to see where the extra visitors were, I showed him.

getz

blahfckingblah wrote: »

im not saying there wasnt an increase because of the visit but i think the timing of it was perfectly judged to take advantage of such events.

if at that time you were watching TV in the UK, you may well of seen many programs about beautiful ireland,many of the UKs older citizens loved it and many went [and are going] to see for themselves.even now there is a lot of irish programs on.because i am a irish holiday fanatic,i get ask ,is it as nice as they say ?

anymore

Laminations wrote: »

How do ya like them apples?
http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0823/tourism-business.html

And before you squawk that this is just the general trend in tourism, trips by Irish abroad were only up 5.9%, compared to trips by visitors into Ireland up by15.6%

That is a reflection of the Irish economy in comparison to the rest of Europe - it is also, by the way a reflection of Ryan air advertising !

Rebelheart

Sergeant wrote: »

This might be a more reliable source.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/travel/2011/0730/1224301600531.html

Indeed, this part in particular stood out: 'All key markets were ahead with an increase of 7 per cent in the number of visitors from the UK, 12 per cent from North America, 10 per cent from mainland Europe."


So, there was a greater increase in the number of people from both the US and mainland Europe than there was from Britain. Let me guess: the "all roads lead to mother England" John Bull underclass will claim that the increase from these areas is all down to the visit of the British queen? :rolleyes:

So, where is this "tourist bonanza" from the British because of this visit? And stop trying to colonise the US and mainland EU figures and claim them for your political point. It's just silly. Nobody here has proven that the visit had any bearing on even the British tourist numbers.

Wolfe Tone

The lack of Iceland spewing ash all over europe of course means numbers were higher.

Rebelheart

Sand wrote: »

I dont think any apology would have meant much. Queen Elizabeth didnt have a hand in any crime I am aware of, so shes nothing to apologise for....

The Provisional IRA claimed to act in the name of Ireland - a claim arguably endorsed by the constitutional claim by Ireland over Northern Ireland. Should Irish politicians tour the UK apologising to the families of various victims of Provo violence?

I think the focus on what are meaningless apologies by people and to people who have no involvement in the events undermine actual, real and genuine apologies. They in fact absolve actual wrongdoers from having to take responsibility for making their own apologies. The people who deserve apologies are the victims of various injustices - from the victims of terrorist atrocities to the likes of the Guilford 4/Birmingham 6. The people who ought to make an apology are those responsible for those acts.

This seeking of meaningless apologies for wrongs never suffered by the wider public is just pathetic wallowing in victimhood as an aspect of national identity. M.O.P.E.

Suffering Jesus. :rolleyes: So now the actions of the Provos are comparable to the actions of the English and British crowns in Ireland since, at least, Humphrey Gilbert's decimation of Munster in the 1560s? Not forgetting the theft of the entire country, the persecution century after century of those who resisted, the overthrow of parliamentary democracy in the summer 1613 by the British colonial community, the imposition of a herrenvolk apartheid Penal Laws system from 1691 and so very, very much more - not to mention forcing the English language down Irish throats from at least 1537.

Yes, the campaign by the Provisional IRA from January 1970 until August 1994/July 1997 is comparable to this (and of course the IRA is still occupying part of Britain today as it has been for centuries). Well done.

As for "apologies", the only real apology the British state can make is its withdrawal from the last remnant of its Irish colony. It's going to happen sometime. It's only a matter of timing. I agree with you in your opposition to "meaningless apologies". As for your claim that the people who should make apologies are those "responsible" for the crime, how very convenient for your pro-British political sympathies that the modern-day beneficiaries of the crime - such as the British state which claims ownership of Irish land gained through genocide against the native Irish- are omitted from this.

As I said: if the British were actually sorry about their role in Ireland, they'd withdraw their mercenaries and state from Ireland. Until they do, the modern British state in Ireland rests upon the foundation stone of abject savagery that was the actions of Essex, Spenser, Bingham, Gilbert, Cromwell and all the rest of England's "civilisers". Actions speak louder than words.

Laminations

Rebelheart wrote: »

Indeed, this part in particular stood out: 'All key markets were ahead with an increase of 7 per cent in the number of visitors from the UK, 12 per cent from North America, 10 per cent from mainland Europe."


So, there was a greater increase in the number of people from both the US and mainland Europe than there was from Britain. Let me guess: the "all roads lead to mother England" John Bull underclass will claim that the increase from these areas is all down to the visit of the British queen? :rolleyes:

Eh... and Obama, you know, the American President.

Nobody here has proven that the visit had any bearing on even the British tourist numbers.

Why limit it to British tourists? The publicity from the visits was worldwide, pictures of Ireland were on screens all over the globe.

We are above any other western European destination for % increase in visitor numbers from Europe
http://www.etc-corporate.org/resources/uploads/ETC-%20July%202011%20Trends%20and%20Outlook%20-%20final.pdf

getz

Rebelheart wrote: »

Suffering Jesus. :rolleyes: So now the actions of the Provos are comparable to the actions of the English and British crowns in Ireland since, at least, Humphrey Gilbert's decimation of Munster in the 1560s? Not forgetting the theft of the entire country, the persecution century after century of those who resisted, the overthrow of parliamentary democracy in the summer 1613 by the British colonial community, the imposition of a herrenvolk apartheid Penal Laws system from 1691 and so very, very much more - not to mention forcing the English language down Irish throats from at least 1537.

Yes, the campaign by the Provisional IRA from January 1970 until August 1994/July 1997 is comparable to this (and of course the IRA is still occupying part of Britain today as it has been for centuries). Well done.

As for "apologies", the only real apology the British state can make is its withdrawal from the last remnant of its Irish colony. It's going to happen sometime. It's only a matter of timing. I agree with you in your opposition to "meaningless apologies". As for your claim that the people who should make apologies are those "responsible" for the crime, how very convenient for your pro-British political sympathies that the modern-day beneficiaries of the crime - such as the British state which claims ownership of Irish land gained through genocide against the native Irish- are omitted from this.

As I said: if the British were actually sorry about their role in Ireland, they'd withdraw their mercenaries and state from Ireland. Until they do, the modern British state in Ireland rests upon the foundation stone of abject savagery that was the actions of Essex, Spenser, Bingham, Gilbert, Cromwell and all the rest of England's "civilisers". Actions speak louder than words.

stop your anti;british obsession,no one is impressed ,get a life and enjoy yourself, people in england do not have horns and a tail,i just hope no old dear on holiday from the UK ever meets the kind of hate that is being thrown about on these threads,

Laminations

Rebelheart wrote: »

As for your claim that the people who should make apologies are those "responsible" for the crime, how very convenient for your pro-British political sympathies that the modern-day beneficiaries of the crime - such as the British state which claims ownership of Irish land gained through genocide against the native Irish- are omitted from this.

And here was me thinking NI benefited from the billions of subsidies poured into it by Britain. How does Britain benefit from 'your' land? Is it rich in resources, does it have a hugely productive slave population? That is the status quo. You get benefits from Britain and the majority of residents there want to remain part of Britain. Deal with it. What makes you think Ireland wants you back anyway?

anymore

getz wrote: »

stop your anti;british obsession,no one is impressed ,get a life and enjoy yourself, people in england do not have horns and a tail,i just hope no old dear on holiday from the UK ever meets the kind of hate that is being thrown about on these threads,

Circa 20% 0f British people do want a monarchy.

The Waltzing Consumer

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

The lack of Iceland spewing ash all over europe of course means numbers were higher.

The numbers are based on the first quarter of 2011, which means the first three months, comparing with 2010 first three months.

When was that ash cloud in 2010? Middle to late April 2010, so not included in these figures.

So the ash cloud has zero to do with this.

Laminations

anymore wrote: »

Circa 20% 0f British people do want a monarchy.

That's their business

More than half of Catholics said they would prefer to stay in the UK, a view shared by 90% of Protestants.

Read more: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/politics/survey-most-northern-ireland-catholics-want-to-remain-in-uk-16012932.html#ixzz1VrAzhbRw

Laminations

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

The numbers are based on the first quarter of 2011, which means the first three months, comparing with 2010 first three months.

When was that ash cloud in 2010? Middle to late April 2010, so not included in these figures.

So the ash cloud has zero to do with this.

Numbers are actually Q2 or year to date. But the ash cloud doesn't explain why Ireland as a destination has a greater % increase than any other western european countries.

anymore

Laminations wrote: »

That's their business

More than half of Catholics said they would prefer to stay in the UK, a view shared by 90% of Protestants.

Read more: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/politics/survey-most-northern-ireland-catholics-want-to-remain-in-uk-16012932.html#ixzz1VrAzhbRw

Then i suggest we should borrow another hundred million euros to subsidise them on their journey back to Brittain , - better make that England as the unruly Scots are not all that keen to be part of the UK anymore.

Laminations

anymore wrote: »

Then i suggest we should borrow another hundred million euros to subsidise them on their journey back to Brittain , - better make that England as the unruly Scots are not all that keen to be part of the UK anymore.

Subsidise who? The majority of NI? To return to where? Britain? They are already in Britain... and will be until a majority decide otherwise

getz

anymore wrote: »

Circa 20% 0f British people do want a monarchy.

is that all,i am impressed that makes 80% want to keep a monarchy,i call that success,