"Of being able to bow to the past, but not be bound by it." Queen Elisabeth IIt

Laminations · 24-08-2011 04:59PM

vellocet wrote: »

Certainly

http://www.cso.ie/releasespublications/documents/tourism_travel/2011/overseastravel_q22011.pdf

100,000 less Britons visted Ireland in the quarter 2 this year over q2 2010.

Why are you expecting the queens visit only to influence Brits?

vellocet · 24-08-2011 05:01PM

Laminations wrote: »

Why are you expecting the queens visit only to influence Brits?

So the British Queens visit had no impact on British tourists, but a positive one on Eastern Europeans?

That is a fairly poor attempt to move the goalposts.

Laminations · 24-08-2011 05:20PM

vellocet wrote: »

So the British Queens visit had no impact on British tourists, but a positive one on Eastern Europeans?

That is a fairly poor attempt to move the goalposts.

Eh, quote me the exact figures from the cso report (and page, table number) because I can't see anything that backs you up

From RTEs report on the cso figures

The biggest increase came from continental Europe, with visitor numbers to Ireland up 24%. Visits from Ireland's biggest tourism market, Britain, grew by 8.5%, while trips from North America were up 17%. Trips from other countries rose by 21.3%

Laminations · 24-08-2011 05:44PM

vellocet wrote: »

Certainly

http://www.cso.ie/releasespublications/documents/tourism_travel/2011/overseastravel_q22011.pdf

100,000 less Britons visted Ireland in the quarter 2 this year over q2 2010.

You read the report wrong, yes?

anymore · 25-08-2011 09:40AM

I suppose in the further interests of balance, I should add that the Brits have had a good war in Libya.

Fratton Fred · 25-08-2011 10:14AM

anymore wrote: »

I suppose in the further interests of balance, I should add that the Brits have had a good war in Libya.

Balance of what? Balance of the chip on your shoulder?

FTA69 · 25-08-2011 10:59AM

Well I see that paragon of Republicanism, the Irish Times, has also joined the Fenian bandwagon in pointing out the fact that this visit has done nothing for tourism.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/travel/2011/0820/1224302735325.html

In the article, for those of ye who'll read it, you will see the head of Fáilte Ireland Shaun Quinn, a chief cheerleader of the gombeenfest that was the visit, declare "we're picking up very few Brits." There you have it like, straight from the horse's mouth.

The reality of the situation is that this visit had nothing to do with tourism, or economics or any of that. This visit was the culmination of a process which seeks to normalise the status quo in Ireland regards partition, an acceptance by the southern establishment that a British presence in the north of Ireland is correct and legitimate. To be honest it was the pinnacle of a long tradition of scraping toward Britain; only this year we saw Enda Kenny ask David Cameron for disclosure of files relating to the biggest mass murder of Irish citizens in the 20th Century only to be politely told to p*ss off. We then spent €30m of taxpayer's money in parading the Commander in Chief of the British Army around the country in an exercise of collective fawning.

Meanwhile, anyone who opposed this bullsh*t was labelled a dinosaur (as Connolly was in his day when he opposed a royal visit) or accused of not "moving on" or being unaware of "the complex history between the two islands" and countless other numbing and nauseating platitudes. To top it off this visit was then masked as a shrewd business "investment" which would boost tourism. The hilarity of this situation is now exposed for the nonsense it was.

It appears driving her around deserted streets in a bullet-proof limo didn't work wonders for tourism at all.

Laminations · 25-08-2011 11:22AM

FTA69 wrote: »

Well I see that paragon of Republicanism, the Irish Times, has also joined the Fenian bandwagon in pointing out the fact that this visit has done nothing for tourism.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/travel/2011/0820/1224302735325.html

In the article, for those of ye who'll read it, you will see the head of Fáilte Ireland Shaun Quinn, a chief cheerleader of the gombeenfest that was the visit, declare "we're picking up very few Brits." There you have it like, straight from the horse's mouth.

Well the actual figures show an increase. And again why would the visit just influence Brits? And you cannot say that it didn't stem the flow of Brits not choosing Ireland and that without it we'd have even fewer visitors. Anyway I don't really care, like you day below the visit was about more than tourism.

The reality of the situation is that this visit had nothing to do with tourism, or economics or any of that. This visit was the culmination of a process which seeks to normalise the status quo in Ireland regards partition, an acceptance by the southern establishment that a British presence in the north of Ireland is correct and legitimate.

Yep that's the reality of the republic you want to join. Shock horror, we don't all hate the Brits and will engage in hospitalities and pleasantries because we have an agreement inlace about the north. 'The southern establishment'? You are starting to speak about Ireland now with a similar disdain you have for Britain.

To be honest it was the pinnacle of a long tradition of scraping toward Britain; only this year we saw Enda Kenny ask David Cameron for disclosure of files relating to the biggest mass murder of Irish citizens in the 20th Century only to be politely told to p*ss off. We then spent €30m of taxpayer's money in parading the Commander in Chief of the British Army around the country in an exercise of collective fawning.

Again, deal with it. That's the Ireland you want to be reunited with. SF ain't the biggest party here. Are we going to have to put up with violent disturbances after reunification because the Irish aren't sharing in your vision and showing enough hostility towards Britain? This is the Republic of Ireland, we get to decide our foreign relations, not some republican headaballs who hate Britain. If you hate your neighbours so much maybe you won't fit in too well down here, maybe push for a unification with Iraq or Palestine or some other place you won't feel the need to criticise for their civility and maturity.

Meanwhile, anyone who opposed this bullsh*t was labelled a dinosaur (as Connolly was in his day when he opposed a royal visit) or accused of not "moving on" or being unaware of "the complex history between the two islands" and countless other numbing and nauseating platitudes. To top it off this visit was then masked as a shrewd business "investment" which would boost tourism. The hilarity of this situation is now exposed for the nonsense it was.

Yep and you are still dinosaurs. What platitudes were given? IIRC, the queen showed humility and respect towards the Irish, in what she wore and in what she said. We showed her some hospitality. And I say some in reference to your last point.

It appears driving her around deserted streets in a bullet-proof limo didn't work wonders for tourism at all.

Yep and the bullet proofing was necessary because of threats from a minority. A minority who it is obvious have no respect for the will of the Irish or the democratic process. A minority that criticise an event and then try to ruin it so they can say 'I told you so'. I minority of Brit hating bigots

FTA69 · 25-08-2011 11:35AM

Well the actual figures show an increase

Well the chief of Fáilte Ireland isn't too pleased with the figures, not by a long shot. We were told ad nauseum this would work absolute wonders for Irish tourism. It hasn't. That was a lie. Simple as.

And again why would the visit just influence Brits?

Because they were only other people to hear about it (albeit fleetingly), no other media really gave a toss about it to be honest.

Yep that's the reality of the republic you want to join.

Gas man. See my location.

'The southern establishment'? You are starting to speak about Ireland now with a similar disdain you have for Britain.

Sure we do have an establishment in the south, I think recent events (i.e. catastrophic economic meltdown) have starkly illustrated the fact that a political and economic elite is definitely present, as it always has been since the foundation of the Free State in 1923.

Again, deal with it. That's the Ireland you want to be reunited with. SF ain't the biggest party here. Are we going to have to put up with violent disturbances after reunification because the Irish aren't sharing in your vision and showing enough hostility towards Britain? This is the Republic of Ireland, we get to decide our foreign relations, not some republican headaballs who hate Britain. If you hate your neighbours so much maybe you won't fit in too well down here, maybe push for a unification with Iraq or Palestine or some other place you won't feel the need to criticise for their civility and maturity.

I'm from Cork. Please don't direct your condescending partitionist nonsense at me.

Laminations · 25-08-2011 11:59AM

FTA69 wrote: »

.
I'm from Cork.

Great. Even less excuse for you to fail to recognise that Ireland (the republic) has moved on. And Ireland (the 6 counties) has the Good Friday Agreement in place to deal with reunification.

The majority of your countrymen welcomed, or were apathetic towards, the queen. It's not the southern establishment, that's the southern people.

vellocet · 25-08-2011 12:24PM

Laminations wrote: »

Great. Even less excuse for you to fail to recognise that Ireland (the republic) has moved on. And Ireland (the 6 counties) has the Good Friday Agreement in place to deal with reunification.

The majority of your countrymen welcomed, or were apathetic towards, the queen. It's not the southern establishment, that's the southern people.

You have neatly encapsulated what was wrong with the narrative around the visit. Any dissent got dogs abuse, and it is still happening.

I was at best apathetic to this visit and was massively inconvienienced by it. But I really had a pain in my hole with the binary approach of the visit's cheerleaders. Anyone who went against the cosy consensus that this was a nation defining moment was a knuckledragging fenian dinsosaur. And a KFD who was threatening our fragile tourist industry too. Same with the anthem in Croker. Is there that little happening in Irish civic life that a huge deal is made over these visits?

There is a nasty streak to the Irish right/partitionists and it came across very acutely during this episode.

FTA69 · 25-08-2011 12:24PM

Laminations wrote: »

The majority of your countrymen welcomed, or were apathetic towards, the queen. It's not the southern establishment, that's the southern people.

It wasn't the ordinary Irish person who concocted this visit and it wasn't them trying to hype it up out of proportion; it was the establishment i.e. the government, the elite, the media etc, there was certainly no cry from the general population for such an initiative. Thankfully the majority (apart from a few gombeens in my own city) ignored the thing for the load of nonsense that it was.

Laminations · 25-08-2011 01:07PM

FTA69 wrote: »

It wasn't the ordinary Irish person who concocted this visit and it wasn't them trying to hype it up out of proportion; it was the establishment i.e. the government, the elite, the media etc, there was certainly no cry from the general population for such an initiative. Thankfully the majority (apart from a few gombeens in my own city) ignored the thing for the load of nonsense that it was.

The MAJORITY of Irish people were not against the visit. Your defiant blurb above doesn't address that, whoever it was that organized the visit.

Laminations · 25-08-2011 01:11PM

vellocet wrote: »

You have neatly encapsulated what was wrong with the narrative around the visit. Any dissent got dogs abuse, and it is still happening.

I was at best apathetic to this visit and was massively inconvienienced by it. But I really had a pain in my hole with the binary approach of the visit's cheerleaders. Anyone who went against the cosy consensus that this was a nation defining moment was a knuckledragging fenian dinsosaur. And a KFD who was threatening our fragile tourist industry too. Same with the anthem in Croker. Is there that little happening in Irish civic life that a huge deal is made over these visits?

There is a nasty streak to the Irish right/partitionists and it came across very acutely during this episode.

What makes me a partitionist? The fact that I accept the GFA? I want a united Ireland, granted it is not my top concern, but I want it nonetheless. But not at the expense of international relations and not against the wishes of the majority of NI citizens. We have a road map for reunification. Convince the majority up there to abandon the union and hey presto. I believe convincing them will come easier when you don't act like violent knuckle-dragging Brit hating dinosaurs. I've purposely left out fenian because the modern day republican anti-Brit thugs aren't fit to wipe the boots of the IRB - a similar sentiment I suppose to what MMG has said recently about dissidents.

FTA69 · 25-08-2011 01:34PM

What makes me a partitionist?

It comes out pretty strongly in your attitude to be honest. The fact you reacted to my criticism of the visit with a line of argument along the lines "you bloody northerners would want to cop on if ye want to be accepted by us Irish" would be one indication.

I've purposely left out fenian because the modern day republican anti-Brit thugs aren't fit to wipe the boots of the IRB

Errah every successive generation of the Irish right has trotted out that line. When James Connolly organised protests against a royal visit a hundred years ago the respectable political class of right-wing Irish nationalism was out in force to condemn him, to belittle and misrepresent him and his sentiment as an archaic throwback. And to top it off he was also b*tched at by Redmondites about how he wasn't fit to wipe the boots of Robert Emmet etc. There's nothing new in history about your argument lad, 50 years down the line people will be engaging in the same revisionism no doubt.

The MAJORITY of Irish people were not against the visit. Your defiant blurb above doesn't address that, whoever it was that organized the visit.

The majority of Irish people sat on their holes doing nothing. The same thing they've always done sadly.

FTA69 · 25-08-2011 01:39PM

vellocet wrote: »

You have neatly encapsulated what was wrong with the narrative around the visit. Any dissent got dogs abuse, and it is still happening.

Not even that but the state was out in force to quell any semblance of legitimate protest. The Special Branch were in overdrive and the cops were running around all over the place trying to rip down posters, confiscate leaflets and all the other usual carry on. After erecting a banner saying "Fund Communities, Not Royal Visits" I was detained for over an hour by no less than 18 cops including the Armed Support Unit whereupon a senior member of the Special Branch threatened to have me brought up on charges of incitement to hatred. I was also told that if I was in town the day of the visit I'd be arrested on sight. The week before this two members of the Special Branch attempted to seize leaflets myself and others were handing out in Daunt Square on the basis they were documentation relevant to Section 30 of the Offenses Against the State Act.

This was the sort of ridiculous carry on that was in play during that period.

Laminations · 25-08-2011 01:45PM

FTA69 wrote: »

Not even that but the state was out in force to quell any semblance of legitimate protest. The Special Branch were in overdrive and the cops were running around all over the place trying to rip down posters, confiscate leaflets and all the other usual carry on. After erecting a banner saying "Fund Communities, Not Royal Visits" I was detained for over an hour by no less than 18 cops including the Armed Support Unit whereupon a senior member of the Special Branch threatened to have me brought up on charges of incitement to hatred. I was also told that if I was in town the day of the visit I'd be arrested on sight. The week before this two members of the Special Branch attempted to seize leaflets myself and others were handing out in Daunt Square on the basis they were documentation relevant to Section 30 of the Offenses Against the State Act.

This was the sort of ridiculous carry on that was in play during that period.

Thankfully, our Garda Siochana were doing their job. You were trying to incite hatred.

Laminations · 25-08-2011 01:45PM

FTA69 wrote: »

The majority of Irish people sat on their holes doing nothing. The same thing they've always done sadly.

Yep and you as a minority still feel you have the right to speak for them.

Laminations · 25-08-2011 02:04PM

FTA69 wrote: »

It comes out pretty strongly in your attitude to be honest. The fact you reacted to my criticism of the visit with a line of argument along the lines "you bloody northerners would want to cop on if ye want to be accepted by us Irish" would be one indication.

But you're from Cork, so what am I now partitionist against Corkonians? Maybe my attitude is just directed at anyone who has a chip on their shoulder that Ireland has matured and has an agreement re the north. Maybe my reaction could more accurately be paraphrased as "you bloody northerners would want to cop on if ye want to be accepted by us Irish and accept the will of the Irish Republic and Northern Irish majority"

FTA69 · 25-08-2011 02:06PM

Laminations wrote: »

Thankfully, our Garda Siochana were doing their job. You were trying to incite hatred.

Eh can you please explain how expressing a statement of "Fund Communities not Royal Visits" is incitement to hatred? And under what basis in a so-called democracy can the Special Branch attempt to confiscate leaflets? The very notion of it is pig ignorant, trying to confiscate an idea so to speak. I'm not a member of an armed group, nor do I have any connection to one so another question could be asked as to why anti-terrorist legislation is being employed to suppress legal political activity.

For all your talk about a democracy you should have no problem answering the above.

FTA69 · 25-08-2011 02:07PM

Laminations wrote: »

But you're from Cork, so what am I now partitionist against Corkonians?

No, you responded immediately to criticism of this visit with a notion that anyone opposed to this must by definition be a bloodthirsty backward northerner mired in the past.

vellocet · 25-08-2011 02:11PM

Laminations wrote: »

The MAJORITY of Irish people were not against the visit. Your defiant blurb above doesn't address that, whoever it was that organized the visit.

You don't know that.

One of the effects of the draconian and aggressive shut down of Dublin was no-one got out to cheer or boo, so we simply will never know who would have had more bodies out

Laminations · 25-08-2011 02:13PM

FTA69 wrote: »

Eh can you please explain how expressing a statement of "Fund Communities not Royal Visits" is incitement to hatred? And under what basis in a so-called democracy can the Special Branch attempt to confiscate leaflets? The very notion of it is pig ignorant, trying to confiscate an idea so to speak. I'm not a member of an armed group, nor do I have any connection to one so another question could be asked as to why anti-terrorist legislation is being employed to suppress legal political activity.

For all your talk about a democracy you should have no problem answering the above.

Where were your banners saying 'Fund communities, not <insert foreign dignitary here> visits'? Huh? May this have been specific protest against Britain....because you hate them? Did you protest Obama? Prince of Monaco? So it was disingenuous to pretend you have a problem with the funding of foreign visitors. If the Queens visit cost nothing, you are saying you wouldn't protest? And as for confiscating ideas? If the cops start confiscating any forward thinking constructive ideas you have let me know. As for confiscating hate-filled propagandist bile? Meh.

vellocet · 25-08-2011 02:17PM

Laminations wrote: »

Thankfully, our Garda Siochana were doing their job. You were trying to incite hatred.

Again, exactly my point from earlier. A very nasty streak.

Peaceful protest banned so elites would not to be embarrassed. Arbitrary searches of private property without warrants if you lived near her route. Data protection nightmare for all employers on or near her route as the Gardai demanded information on all employess, a lot of which is not legal to be kept my employers. The biggest sporting event in Ireland in a generation a damp squib because locals simply couldn't get to the stadium.

When you scratch the surface there is a huge number of people who should know better in Ireland who don't quite get the concept of human rights.

Laminations · 25-08-2011 02:17PM

FTA69 wrote: »

No, you responded immediately to criticism of this visit with a notion that anyone opposed to this must by definition be a bloodthirsty backward northerner mired in the past.

But if I though most northerners were blood-thirsty and backward then I'd have a problem with most of them. I only have a problem with a few on both republican and unionist sides who insist on living in the past. Most are law abiding and believe in democracy and the GFA. I assumed you to be northern because of your foul attitude towards the Republic and its citizens, again this isn't to say I think the majority of northerners share this attitude

vellocet · 25-08-2011 02:19PM

Laminations wrote: »

And as for confiscating ideas? If the cops start confiscating any forward thinking constructive ideas you have let me know. As for confiscating hate-filled propagandist bile? Meh.

Please. You are being foolish now. The function of the Gardaí is not as a goon squad to pick on some political traditions and not others.

Democratic rights apply to those you don't agree with too..

Laminations · 25-08-2011 02:20PM

vellocet wrote: »

You don't know that.

Yes I do. All major polls carried out before, during and after the visit have shown this.

As for very few people showing up. That becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy when you threaten to cause violence.

Laminations · 25-08-2011 02:21PM

vellocet wrote: »

The biggest sporting event in Ireland in a generation a damp squib because locals simply couldn't get to the stadium.

Exaggerate much?

vellocet · 25-08-2011 02:22PM

Laminations wrote: »

But if I though most northerners were blood-thirsty and backward then I'd have a problem with most of them. I only have a problem with a few on both republican and unionist sides who insist on living in the past. Most are law abiding and believe in democracy and the GFA. I assumed you to be northern because of your foul attitude towards the Republic and its citizens, again this isn't to say I think the majority of northerners share this attitude

No-one has issue with you disliking extremists.

People do have a problem with you condoning state supression of legitimate political protest and dissent.

At what point do you call stop? When certain general election posters are torn down by the cops? When Labour activists get harrassed? FG candidates getting detained?

Laminations · 25-08-2011 02:22PM

Oh and vellocet, I'm still waiting for a response on the following. A retraction of your incorrect assertion will do.

Laminations wrote: »

Eh, quote me the exact figures from the cso report (and page, table number) because I can't see anything that backs you up

From RTEs report on the cso figures

"Of being able to bow to the past, but not be bound by it." Queen Elisabeth IIt

Comments