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David Quinn and Gay Marriage

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Comments

  • #152
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Barrington wrote: »
    But that wouldn't happen. Think about it, 100 years ago, it wasn't uncommon for men to marry girls who were younger than what would be the age of consent now, yet homosexuality was illegal and many people killed for it. Nowadays, child abuse is considered to be one of the vilest acts a person can commit, and homosexuality is widely accepted. There's a reason. Homosexual acts between consenting adults is fine because there is no victim. There is always a victim in child abuse cases. That's why it'll never be voted in. So again, this point is moot.

    That is an excellent point.

    The primary focus of post-Enlightenment civil rights has been precisely that, civil rights and the protection of those rights. And those rights normally center around the individual and protecting them from harm.

    The idea that pedophilia will be legalized if we keep down this liberal route is frankly ridiculous, since pedophilia forsakes the rights of the person involved (the child) for the gratification of the others.

    This is exactly the opposite of the way things have been progressing in the Western world.

    The same principles that say that homosexuals should not be oppressed because it satisfies the wishes of non-homosexuals are the same principles that say children should not be abused because is satisfies the wishes of adults, be that physically or sexually.

    It is no coincidence that in the past societies had terrible track record on children's rights and also oppressed homosexuals and other minorities, because their focus was on the wishes of the ruling members, not of society as a whole.


  • #153
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    gimmebroadband wrote: »
    Could be caused by pollutants!

    "While environmentalists are usually vocal about perceived threats ranging from pesticides to global warming, there is a silence when it comes to one threat already harming the water supply: hormones from birth-control pills.
    According to the National Catholic Register, EPA-funded scientists at the University of Colorado studied fish in a mountain stream near Boulder, Colo., two years ago.
    When they netted 123 trout and other fish downstream from the city's sewer plant, they found 101 were female, 12 were male, and 10 were strange "intersex" fish with male and female features.
    It's "the first thing that I've seen as a scientist that really scared me," university biologist John Woodling told the Denver Post.

    Read more: Birth-control pills poison everyone? http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=42520#ixzz1WAcmBHVh

    Yes because the ancient Greeks had the pill :rolleyes:

    I've no idea what ISAW means by natural law (in my experience "natural laws" always lines up with the notions the person invoking it has, so for a Nazi it was natural law that Jews were evil and for a Communist it was natural law for the weak to be removed from society), but there is no denying that homosexuality is a naturally occurring phenomena that appears in a large number of species and fits within understanding of evolutionary biology.

    Christians can say God forbids it, fair enough. But that argument only gets you up to theological boundaries. When theists start invoking the natural sciences to try and support their notions they fall flat on their faces.


  • #154
    gimmebroadband
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,267 ✭✭✭gimmebroadband


    Wicknight wrote: »
    Yes because the ancient Greeks had the pill :rolleyes:

    I've no idea what ISAW means by natural law (in my experience "natural laws" always lines up with the notions the person invoking it has, so for a Nazi it was natural law that Jews were evil and for a Communist it was natural law for the weak to be removed from society), but there is no denying that homosexuality is a naturally occurring phenomena that appears in a large number of species and fits within understanding of evolutionary biology.

    Christians can say God forbids it, fair enough. But that argument only gets you up to theological boundaries. When theists start invoking the natural sciences to try and support their notions they fall flat on their faces.

    The pill is only a modern day pollutant! In ancient times the earth was spewing out pollutants from Volcano's etc. When we mess up the environment, God only knows what happens!


  • #155
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    gimmebroadband wrote: »
    Could be caused by pollutants!

    "While environmentalists are usually vocal about perceived threats ranging from pesticides to global warming, there is a silence when it comes to one threat already harming the water supply: hormones from birth-control pills.
    According to the National Catholic Register, EPA-funded scientists at the University of Colorado studied fish in a mountain stream near Boulder, Colo., two years ago.
    When they netted 123 trout and other fish downstream from the city's sewer plant, they found 101 were female, 12 were male, and 10 were strange "intersex" fish with male and female features.
    It's "the first thing that I've seen as a scientist that really scared me," university biologist John Woodling told the Denver Post.

    Read more: Birth-control pills poison everyone? http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=42520#ixzz1WAcmBHVh

    I think it's safe to doubt that website's impartiality on the matter, considering the founder has an opinion piece on same sex marriage that opens with this sentence:

    "I have to laugh every time a same-sex marriage apologist suggests a society can somehow, arbitrarily, without consequences and further confusion, redefine marriage as an institution between two people of either sex."

    Or this charming nugget, later on:

    "Those who tell you that same-sex marriage is no big deal and won't lead to the further diminishment of the 6,000-year-old institution of marriage are either being disingenuous or are just plain ignorant.

    Marriage is the most important cultural institution in any free and self-governing society.

    If you want to plunge into the moral abyss of chaos and barbarism, then just cast your vote for same-sex marriage. Just pretend this profoundly faddish idea is only the latest breakthrough in "civil rights." Just don't raise your voice of objection to this bizarre idea being rammed down America's throat by those who have no appreciation for what really works in God's economy."

    Perhaps you agree with him gimmebroadband, but if you're going to put forward scientific possibilities to answer a question, then you should choose a source that doesn't have so much of a bias.


  • #156
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    gimmebroadband wrote: »
    The pill is only a modern day pollutant! In ancient times the earth was spewing out pollutants from Volcano's etc.

    And do pollutants from volcano's normally contain estrogen?


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  • #157
    CiaranMT
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,093 ✭✭✭CiaranMT


    Barrington wrote: »


    So if it has been proven that homosexuality is recognised in nature, what makes you think it is wrong? Why is it unnatural if it occurs in nature?

    BECAUSE GOD SAYS SO.

    Don't you get this yet?

    @gimmebroadband, what about the bonobo ape, for example? Which by and large lives in unspoilt rainforests, and which engages in sexual acts of all types?


  • #158
    gimmebroadband
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,267 ✭✭✭gimmebroadband


    Is it only biased because it a christian source, or do you think is it wrong that one cannot be both a scientist and a christian!!!


  • #159
    gimmebroadband
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,267 ✭✭✭gimmebroadband


    CiaranMT wrote: »
    BECAUSE GOD SAYS SO.

    Don't you get this yet?

    @gimmebroadband, what about the bonobo ape, for example? Which by and large lives in unspoilt rainforests, and which engages in sexual acts of all types?

    How do you know it's unspoilt, heard of acid rain etc.

    http://www.epa.gov/acidrain/effects/forests.html


  • #160
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Dig up gimme, dig up :rolleyes:

    Perhaps it would be better to just stick to the theological arguments, you know the ones that cannot consistently be demonstrated to be wrong.

    Just say "I believe God doesn't like it" and no one can show you are wrong.


  • #161
    gimmebroadband
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,267 ✭✭✭gimmebroadband


    Ibises

    Research has shown that the environmental pollutant methylmercury can increase the prevalence of homosexual behavior in male American White Ibis. The study involved exposing chicks in varying dosages to the chemical and measuring the degree of homosexual behavior in adulthood. The results discovered was that as the dosage was increased the likelihood of homosexual behavior also increased. The endocrine blocking feature of mercury has been suggested as a possible cause of sexual disruption in other bird species.[39][40]


    @ Wiknight, this is science mate - prove them wrong"


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  • #162
    CiaranMT
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,093 ✭✭✭CiaranMT


    LOL.

    I'm delighted that the RCC has people like gimme defending them.


  • #163
    smokingman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,796 ✭✭✭smokingman


    That there is one of the things that irks me the most in life.
    Some deists thinking they can "bend" science to their will. Science is science bud...it stands up to logic and is reformed with every rational disruption thought....by people who know what the **** they're talking about.

    For the love of whatever, please don't try and drag science down with your bloody fairy tales and magic.

    I'll make you a promise; I won't make little of what you believe from now on if you don't try and **** up basic natural facts yeah?


  • #164
    gimmebroadband
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,267 ✭✭✭gimmebroadband


    smokingman wrote: »
    That there is one of the things that irks me the most in life.
    Some deists thinking they can "bend" science to their will. Science is science bud...it stands up to logic and is reformed with every rational disruption thought....by people who know what the **** they're talking about.

    For the love of whatever, please don't try and drag science down with your bloody fairy tales and magic.

    I'll make you a promise; I won't make little of what you believe from now on if you don't try and **** up basic natural facts yeah?

    How exactly am I bending science, I found links to some facts that pollutants can effect the environment and in turn can effect nature!

    I hope you can forgive a 51 year old lady, I don't mean to irk anyone! ;)


  • #165
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    gimmebroadband wrote: »
    @ Wiknight, this is science mate - prove them wrong"

    There is nothing to dispute, you claimed volcanic pollutates caused homosexuality in ancient Greece and the produced a paper about methylmercury (a man made compound) effecting birds in America to support this :rolleyes:

    You clearly have no idea what you are talking about but are instead desperately searching for anything to support your pre-concieved notions (what was that about being bias).


  • #166
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    That wikipedia article lists 7 other types of birds as well as 17 types of other animals in which homosexuality activity is recorded or inferred. I don't see anything there that says that those species were subjected to pollutants, do you?

    Interestingly, the study also found this:

    "Males that engaged in homosexual parings were also less likely to switch partners from year to year,"

    So it looks like homosexual birds are more monogamous than heterosexual birds. That can't be a bad thing, can it? :D


  • #167
    gimmebroadband
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,267 ✭✭✭gimmebroadband


    Wicknight wrote: »
    There is nothing to dispute, you claimed volcanic pollutates caused homosexuality in ancient Greece and the produced a paper about methylmercury (a man made compound) effecting birds in America to support this :rolleyes:

    You clearly have no idea what you are talking about but are instead desperately searching for anything to support your pre-concieved notions (what was that about being bias).

    I didn't claim volcanos caused homosexuality, I claimed that there were pollutants in ancient times.

    The I posted an example of how pollutants from modern society caused it in birds!

    You keep assuming I am tying them up together, which I'm not!!!


  • #168
    CiaranMT
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,093 ✭✭✭CiaranMT


    gimmebroadband wrote: »
    I didn't claim volcanos caused homosexuality, I claimed that there were pollutants in ancient times.

    The I posted an example of how pollutants from modern society caused it in birds!

    You keep assuming I am tying them up together, which I'm not!!!

    Well you're not doing a very good job at whatever it is you're trying to do, then, for reasons pointed out already.


  • #169
    MOSSAD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 317 ✭✭MOSSAD


    Please-I'm one of four, the only gay one, my parents both loving/nurturing heterosexuals. What happened to me? Mercury, a volcano?
    I have a colleague, one of 5 children, four males and a girl. Three of the males are gay, and all three are left-handed. The breeders are right handed. What happened here-a double dose of mercury or possibly a mega volcano?
    As for those apparently heterosexual people who just cannot keep away from condemning gay marriage, well I think they really want to tell the rest of us their deep secret.
    How about this gem? When the idea of gay adoptions was raised in New Jersey, the religious apologists condemned it, but said it was ok if the child was HIV positive, because, well, that was a gay thing.


  • #170
    smokingman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,796 ✭✭✭smokingman


    gimmebroadband wrote: »
    I hope you can forgive a 51 year old lady, I don't mean to irk anyone! ;)

    Do you think for one second that the fact that you're a 51 year old woman, that I should stand by and somehow say "ah sure let her be, she's only an aul one" when you're an affront to the human races true triumph in the world we live in. That being pure, beautiful and awe inspiring logic.

    From a book that would be my own "bible":

    "Mental patterns do not originate out of inorganic nature. They originate out of society, which originates out of inorganic nature. And, as anthropologists know so well, what a mind thinks is as dominated by biological patterns as social patterns are dominated by biological patterns and as biological patterns are dominated by inorganic patterns. There is no direct scientific connection between mind and matter. As the atomic scientist, Niels Bohr, said, "We are suspended in language."
    — Robert M. Pirsig

    Logic is the knife that cuts through this "human" failing. It's purity and strenght in science is there for all to see and when this is ridiculed, I find myself in attack mode.

    I apologise for being angry, I sincerely do, but maybe what is the root cause of this, the last indivisible element, is that I have too much hope for our species. I see and imagine a world where we're better than this and pure logic and the application of real, beautiful science/engineering is the key but maybe that's exactly how you feel about your god.

    I understand how deists think atheism/logic can be a religion, I just don't see the logic myself.


  • #171
    maxxie
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 949 ✭✭✭maxxie


    QUARES


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  • #172
    Cybercelesta
    Closed Accounts Posts: 118 ✭✭Cybercelesta


    smokingman wrote: »
    Do you think for one second that the fact that you're a 51 year old woman, that I should stand by and somehow say "ah sure let her be, she's only an aul one" when you're an affront to the human races true triumph in the world we live in. That being pure, beautiful and awe inspiring logic.

    From a book that would be my own "bible":

    "Mental patterns do not originate out of inorganic nature. They originate out of society, which originates out of inorganic nature. And, as anthropologists know so well, what a mind thinks is as dominated by biological patterns as social patterns are dominated by biological patterns and as biological patterns are dominated by inorganic patterns. There is no direct scientific connection between mind and matter. As the atomic scientist, Niels Bohr, said, "We are suspended in language."
    — Robert M. Pirsig

    Logic is the knife that cuts through this "human" failing. It's purity and strenght in science is there for all to see and when this is ridiculed, I find myself in attack mode.

    I apologise for being angry, I sincerely do, but maybe what is the root cause of this, the last indivisible element, is that I have too much hope for our species. I see and imagine a world where we're better than this and pure logic and the application of real, beautiful science/engineering is the key but maybe that's exactly how you feel about your god.

    I understand how deists think atheism/logic can be a religion, I just don't see the logic myself.

    You may not agree with the GB but there is no need for personal attacks, AFAIK that is against TOS! Condemnation of sodomy is not exclusive to the Catholic Church, it has been condemned throughout the Old Testament!!


  • #173
    smokingman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,796 ✭✭✭smokingman


    Cybercelesta wrote: »
    it has been condemned throughout the Old Testament!!

    A document written when it was perfectly acceptable to marry and have sex with 9 year old girls. The human race has moved on a bit since then; I'd advise you do the same.


  • #174
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    gimmebroadband wrote: »
    I didn't claim volcanos caused homosexuality, I claimed that there were pollutants in ancient times.

    Pollutants which you claim is the cause of homosexuality.

    Can you point out what in volcano's cause homosexuality?
    gimmebroadband wrote: »
    The I posted an example of how pollutants from modern society caused it in birds!

    Which does nothing to support your claim that it is not naturally occurring. It is like saying sex is not naturally occurring and then giving Viagra as your evidence :rolleyes:
    gimmebroadband wrote: »
    You keep assuming I am tying them up together, which I'm not!!!

    So you finally admit that homosexuality is naturally occurring in nature, and while it can be triggered by chemicals that is not the source of it, any more than Viagra is the source of sex drive?

    If so what the heck was your original point?


  • #175
    wonderfulname
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,943 ✭✭✭wonderfulname


    Ooh what fun this thread has become, I'm simply astonished at the lengths people will go to to misrepresent information as backing up their prejudice, handy tip: if you're going to use data to back up your argumentation at least understand it enough to be confident it's not completely ridiculous.
    gimmebroadband wrote: »
    Could be caused by pollutants!

    "While environmentalists are usually vocal about perceived threats ranging from pesticides to global warming, there is a silence when it comes to one threat already harming the water supply: hormones from birth-control pills.
    According to the National Catholic Register, EPA-funded scientists at the University of Colorado studied fish in a mountain stream near Boulder, Colo., two years ago.
    When they netted 123 trout and other fish downstream from the city's sewer plant, they found 101 were female, 12 were male, and 10 were strange "intersex" fish with male and female features.
    It's "the first thing that I've seen as a scientist that really scared me," university biologist John Woodling told the Denver Post.

    Read more: Birth-control pills poison everyone? http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=42520#ixzz1WAcmBHVh
    Firstly, there is certainly not silence on this issue, it has been heavily studied and reported on in recent years, secondly, it is of absolutely no relevance, neither physical sex or gender have anything to do with sexuality, on top of this it has already been pointed out that variation in sexuality has been around as far back in time as we can be aware. I also feel I must ask that if, bearing in mind it is about as likely as bolton wanderers winning the superbowl, you are right, what possible reason could this be for denying same sex couples the right to marry?
    gimmebroadband wrote: »
    The pill is only a modern day pollutant! In ancient times the earth was spewing out pollutants from Volcano's etc. When we mess up the environment, God only knows what happens!
    So pollutants from volcanoes are us messing with the environment? You do realise that without pollutants from volcanoes there would be no life on earth? Could you kindly tell me how the natural pollutants from volcanoes defy the natural order and what precisely is wrong with the chemicals they release, I'm also curious to know your understanding of the timeline of volcanic activity and what you classify as 'ancient', precisely how volatile do you think the earth was all of two and a half thousand years ago?
    gimmebroadband wrote: »
    Ibises

    Research has shown that the environmental pollutant methylmercury can increase the prevalence of homosexual behavior in male American White Ibis. The study involved exposing chicks in varying dosages to the chemical and measuring the degree of homosexual behavior in adulthood. The results discovered was that as the dosage was increased the likelihood of homosexual behavior also increased. The endocrine blocking feature of mercury has been suggested as a possible cause of sexual disruption in other bird species.[39][40]


    @ Wiknight, this is science mate - prove them wrong"
    Or more accurately, prove it relevant, from the same wiki page;
    An October 2003 study by Dr. Charles E. Roselli et al. (Oregon Health and Science University) states that homosexuality in male sheep (found in 8% of rams) is associated with a region in the rams' brains which the authors call the "ovine Sexually Dimorphic Nucleus" (oSDN) which is half the size of the corresponding region in heterosexual male sheep.[29]
    Scientists found that, "The oSDN in rams that preferred females was significantly larger and contained more neurons than in male-oriented rams and ewes. In addition, the oSDN of the female-oriented rams expressed higher levels of aromatase, a substance that converts testosterone to estradiol, a form of estrogen which is believed to facilitate typical male sexual behaviors. Aromatase expression was no different between male-oriented rams and ewes."
    "The dense cluster of neurons that comprise the oSDN express cytochrome P450 aromatase. Aromatase mRNA levels in the oSDN were significantly greater in female-oriented rams than in ewes, whereas male-oriented rams exhibited intermediate levels of expression." These results suggest that "...naturally occurring variations in sexual partner preferences may be related to differences in brain anatomy and its capacity for estrogen synthesis."[29] As noted prior, given the potential unagressiveness of the male population in question, the differing aromatase levels may also have been evidence of aggression levels, not sexuality. It should also be noted that the results of this study have not been confirmed by other studies.
    So in one bird it can be shown that a man made pollutant can increase homosexual activity whilst in one mammal it can be shown that orientation is related to naturally occurring variations in brain anatomy, in the vast majority of incidences same sex activity is concluded to be naturally occurring, by people who know a lot better than you might I add, how do you think it makes sense to pick out one isolated instance and think it relevant to an entire area of study? There is a species of fish that can change it's sex seemingly at will, so surely that means if I concentrate really hard I'll grow a penis...


  • #176
    Cybercelesta
    Closed Accounts Posts: 118 ✭✭Cybercelesta


    smokingman wrote: »
    A document written when it was perfectly acceptable to marry and have sex with 9 year old girls. The human race has moved on a bit since then; I'd advise you do the same.

    Moved on to imitate animals, yeh I get it!


  • #177
    MOSSAD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 317 ✭✭MOSSAD


    Cybercelesta wrote: »
    You may not agree with the GB but there is no need for personal attacks, AFAIK that is against TOS! Condemnation of sodomy is not exclusive to the Catholic Church, it has been condemned throughout the Old Testament!!
    Dear me....few questions cybercelesta---do you wear makeup? Do you wear clothes made of different fabrics? All this is prohibited by that wonderfully entertaining history of the Hebraic peoples, the Bible.
    Do you have children? And have they disobeyed you? If so, by the logic you use to back your "argument", you really need to execute them. Might be a good thing though, prevent you poisoning their minds.


  • #178
    Cybercelesta
    Closed Accounts Posts: 118 ✭✭Cybercelesta


    MOSSAD wrote: »
    Dear me....few questions cybercelesta---do you wear makeup? Do you wear clothes made of different fabrics? All this is prohibited by that wonderfully entertaining history of the Hebraic peoples, the Bible.
    Do you have children? And have they disobeyed you? If so, by the logic you use to back your "argument", you really need to execute them. Might be a good thing though, prevent you poisoning their minds.

    God didn't smite a city for wearing makeup or mixed materials!


  • #179
    ISAW
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,142 ✭✭✭ISAW


    smokingman wrote: »
    A document written when it was perfectly acceptable to marry and have sex with 9 year old girls. The human race has moved on a bit since then; I'd advise you do the same.
    Wicknight wrote: »

    It is no coincidence that in the past societies had terrible track record on children's rights and also oppressed homosexuals and other minorities, because their focus was on the wishes of the ruling members, not of society as a whole.

    You have it half only right.

    while say in Victorian times children were seen and not heard and put up chimneys to clean them workers rights and welfare rights in general (even for adults) didn't exist.

    When I referred to child abuse I specifically referred ( and the reason being so that the issue could not be fudged and the act was clear as to what a "child" was so we can't fudge and say for example "well a fourteen year old can look like a woman and be capable of having children"to adults ) to adults having sex with pre pubescent children. I also refer in various threads to the statistics of this and to the numbers involved in terms or clergy non clergy etc.

    Now i have proffered evidence that child abuse in this regard was always wrong and that it didn't become less acceptable and eventually illegal. the "Ancient greece" example is often given as an example of this. In fact the "men with other men" example is valid I would say only for Sparta and not all of ancient Greece. this is because in spartan society children with any birth "defects" were killed and the boys were separated from girls and raised with men.

    I have also elsewhere demonstrated Early Christian society had laws specifically against child abuse.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65509576&postcount=862
    Conclusion: The research of original Byzantine literature disclosed many
    instances of child sexual abuse in all social classes even in the mediaeval
    Byzantine society which was characterized by strict legal and religious
    prohibitions. ...
    In fact when the Greek and Western Roman empire was acceptable of such things there are church rules going back to the third or fourth century against sex with children.

    To my knowledge of several places worldwide clergy (well stats in the Roman
    Catholic Church anyway which is being discussed above. Protestant and Jewish
    clergy may have different stats but little on child abuse is conclusive but
    in any case abiove is Roman catholic so let us stay with that shall we?)
    constitute one or two per cent of abusers.

    So the idea that the church is "progressing" from accepting child abuse to decrying it is in error. The Church always said it was wrong!

    The human race hasn't "moved on"


  • #180
    MOSSAD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 317 ✭✭MOSSAD


    Cybercelesta wrote: »
    God didn't smite a city for wearing makeup or mixed materials!
    Selectively quoting the bible my dear. How about the justification for slavery that's in the bible? Or Lot's daughters sleeping with their father? Want to explain that to me?:D
    Sounds to me that a little bit of sodomy might just be the thing you need.
    Broaden your mind a little.
    By the way, define sodomy.


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  • #181
    smokingman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,796 ✭✭✭smokingman


    Cybercelesta wrote: »
    Moved on to imitate animals, yeh I get it!

    Newsflash for ya, we are animals too; your superiority complex can't seem to fathom that but I guess that's what happens when someone thinks they're so special, they were deliberatly magic'd into existance.
    ISAW wrote: »
    You have it half only right.
    blah blah totally unrelated blah blah, semantics and blah blah to suit my own bigotry....

    The human race hasn't "moved on"

    So you're saying that child abuse was always condemned eh?
    What of ye old testi times when, like I said, it was perfectably acceptable to marry and have sex with 9 year olds? Oh yeah, that wasn't considered "abuse", that's a good way of getting out of that one alright.

    I think you'll find we, as a species, have moved on and through science and the application of logic, will be leaving ghost-rape, magic and all that behind for good sooner or later. You, of course, are still entitled to keep believing the world is flat, is the center of the universe and that the sun revolves around you.


This discussion has been closed.
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