David Quinn and Gay Marriage

old hippy

PatricaMcKay2 wrote: »

Hatred is an emotion, I dont hate homosexuals, whatever I may think of them. I do extremely dislike Hugo Brown Brady though, and his mind melting arrogance did cause anger to stir in me I admit. I also feel pity for him.

You do hate them. You mention the word "perversion" during your conversation. I feel pity for you, you cannot confront your own nature.

old hippy

Newsite wrote: »

There's no obsession with homosexuality here, none whatsoever. But this is a thread on gay marriage Hugo, so the topic is presumed to be at the fore I would say.

Indeed it is & that's why your little pow wow on said gay people should be open to all of us and not confined to Christians.

Newsite

old hippy wrote: »

Indeed it is & that's why your little pow wow on said gay people should be open to all of us and not confined to Christians.

No idea where you got that from, keep posting all ya like.

old hippy

Newsite wrote: »

No idea where you got that from, keep posting all ya like.

So, earlier you weren't wondering why I was posting on a Christian forum?

The sheer slurry of it all :rolleyes:

Newsite

old hippy wrote: »

So, earlier you weren't wondering why I was posting on a Christian forum?

The sheer slurry of it all :rolleyes:

I'm bemused that you equate my wondering why you are posting here with telling you that you shouldn't be posting here.

old hippy

Newsite wrote: »

I'm bemused that you equate my wondering why you are posting here with telling you that you shouldn't be posting here.

I'm bemuse that you equate gays with slurry :rolleyes:

Newsite

old hippy wrote: »

I'm bemuse that you equate gays with slurry :rolleyes:

old hippy - please reference my post where I did the above?

Otherwise I would ask you to retract it immediately.

PatricaMcKay2

old hippy wrote: »

You do hate them. You mention the word "perversion" during your conversation. I feel pity for you, you cannot confront your own nature.

I also call bi-polar disorder a mental illness, does that make me hate manic depressives?

Calling a psychological disorder what it is, a perversion, does not equal hatred a chara.

And yes I can confront my own nature.

marienbad

PatricaMcKay2 wrote: »

I also call bi-polar disorder a mental illness, does that make me hate manic depressives?

Calling a psychological disorder what it is, a perversion, does not equal hatred a chara.

And yes I can confront my own nature.

How about anal sex- both male and female , oral sex , all within marriage , are they perversions Patricia ?

PDN

old hippy wrote: »

You do hate them. You mention the word "perversion" during your conversation. I feel pity for you, you cannot confront your own nature.

Look, you're only going to derail threads with this kind of nonsense where you pretend to know what is in the hearts of other posters.

It is perfectly possible btw to view an act as a perversion yet not to hate the person who commits the act.

So let's have less personal remarks about who you imagine hates who, or who isn't loving enough. Please address what people post - not the motivations or emotions that you imagine the poster might have.

NuMarvel

PatricaMcKay2 wrote: »

I also call bi-polar disorder a mental illness, does that make me hate manic depressives?

Calling a psychological disorder what it is, a perversion, does not equal hatred a chara.

And yes I can confront my own nature.

I've been away for a few days, so I may have missed the post where you set out your clinical credentials, but are you qualified to diagnose a mental illness?

And for that matter are you saying that all mental disorders are perversions? Are you saying that those diagnosed with bipolar disorder are also suffering from perversions?

jill_valentine

I'm not sure how to phrase this in a way that won't incur a justifiable penalty but uh -

I just want to make it abundantly clear that while I think PatricaMcKay2's take on homosexuality is utterly bonkers, I also think it's exceptionally so; I don't believe it's ultimately rooted in the letter of Christian doctrine, and I would hate anybody to think I'm projecting or ascribing it onto any or all other Christian posters here.

philologos

This thread is the epitome of what I don't like about this debate on both sides.

TylerIE

PatricaMcKay2 wrote: »

This, maybe he doesnt understand that Christ to us is a living Person with whom we have an emotional relationship with and not just an idea, but he should.

Also whats the point of popping over to the LGBT forum, its theirs.

Hugo suggesting that Jesus had an intimate relationship with another man is not an insult to anybody. The only reason it would be an insult to him or to Christians is if Jesus condemned homosexuality, which in the absence of evidence to the contrary - he didnt, therefore its no biggie. Christian disapproval is based on Gods disapproval. If Jesus engaged in a relationship with another man its hardly disapproved by God.

TylerIE

Newsite wrote: »

There's no obsession with homosexuality here, none whatsoever. But this is a thread on gay marriage Hugo, so the topic is presumed to be at the fore I would say.

As I stated time and time again - there is a Christian lobby that has an exceptional interest in homosexuality. They dont campaign against other Non-Christian groups or against leglislation that benefits other "sinners" but yet do seek to campaign against lesbians and gay men.

Even on this forum the moderators often comment on these threads that certain individuals who frequent the forum are obsessed with this topic.

Im interested in it from an equality perspective - and the religious perspective is often the single most (if not only) organised lobby against equality. They sometimes use the Biblical argument, but knowing it fails with most people they do a David Quinn "somebody please think of the children" (also proven to be invalid) with a few side arguments like always was a a man and woman etc, then sometimes realising neither arguments hold no water we see the abuse like ever affabale Patricia threw earlier - disgusting/disordered/and of course the lovely stereotyping that Patricia gave.

TylerIE

Newsite wrote: »

But if I pop over to your 'LGBT' forum and voice my thoughts on a topic in a reasonable and non-hateful way, I get two infractions (2/2!) and anyone who voices dissent is...yes those two classics...'homophobic' and 'prejudiced'!

The LGBT forum is supposed to be a safe place for Lesbians, Gay men, and for trans and bisexual individuals. Those who are adjusting to their sexuality, fear coming out or have had bad experiences can discuss these issues in a safe place. For some LGBT people it will be the only place where they can speak to other LGBT individuals.

Hatred, dislike, disapproval, etc are more than readily available in in the real world, and theres enough reminders of the inequality on a daily basis, so theres no need for them to be supplemented in the LGBT forum by those wishing to evangelise.

If you read the LGBT forum charter it is quite clear that posts that are going to offend, attack or hurt LGBT individuals are prohibited.

6. No trolling or flaming. This means posting something that you feel will incite anger and/or abusive posting. This is usually thinly veiled insults. Starting up threads for the singular purpose of inviting such flames is also discouraged. It is the moderators discretion to decide whether a poster is trolling or flaming.

7. Abusive language that is homophobic/transphobic will not be tolerated and the persons posting it will be banned from the forum. Saying that transgender is a choice, saying that trans surgeries are cosmetic, or calling trans people "a man/woman who thinks they are a woman/man ", will result in an immediate infraction and/or ban, as these things aren't "opinions", they are falsehoods rooted in transphobia.

8. Keep things civil. No name calling, personal abuse, unneccessary aggression, snide comments, or backseat moderating.

PDN

Newsite and TylerIE, we have a policy of not discussing the moderating of other fora here.

TylerIE

PatricaMcKay2 wrote: »

Your misogny and arrogance really shines through.

I feel sorry you, deeply sorry, and I also feel anger, anger at the way someone has warped their personality in the manner that you have so that they destroyed any chance of getting out of life what most of us take for granted. You should check the obviously immense hatred that has got you into this position before worrying so much about other people's dislike for perversion.

I cant see him being misogynistic, and arrogance isnt the word I would use.

I think your mistaking an understandable (considering your stance, comments and attitude when you showed your true colours) dislike/ disrespect that he has shown for you as a person, as opposed to for all women.

Maybe you have some insecurity and sensitivity there Patricia? You feel his personality is warped, but I actually would be more worried for you. After spending some time in Germany with gay men and/or lesbian women you developed a massive dislike for gay men and lesbians - calling them perverted and saying you dont dislike their acts but its just their arrogance - broad stereotyping - but thats probably owing to some bad personal experience?

I could dislike, or even hate, you too (And it wouldnt be misogyny) it would be due to your horrid attitude - suggesting that draconian anti-homosexuality laws would eliminate LGBT individuals, but instead I feel more sympathy for you than hatred.

Maybe you should get some help to get over this sensitivity, and judgmental and hate filled attitude. Its probably holding you back more than Hugos homosexuality is holding him back.

Newsite

TylerIE wrote: »

Hugo suggesting that Jesus had an intimate relationship with another man is not an insult to anybody. The only reason it would be an insult to him or to Christians is if Jesus condemned homosexuality, which in the absence of evidence to the contrary - he didnt, therefore its no biggie. Christian disapproval is based on Gods disapproval. If Jesus engaged in a relationship with another man its hardly disapproved by God.

Tyler, most of the above is so silly as to not make any sense, so there wouldn't really be any point in discussing it at all. I mean that in the best possible way now. Kind of like a 'let's agree to disagree' way.

TylerIE wrote: »

As I stated time and time again - there is a Christian lobby that has an exceptional interest in homosexuality. They dont campaign against other Non-Christian groups or against leglislation that benefits other "sinners" but yet do seek to campaign against lesbians and gay men.

Even on this forum the moderators often comment on these threads that certain individuals who frequent the forum are obsessed with this topic.

Im interested in it from an equality perspective - and the religious perspective is often the single most (if not only) organised lobby against equality. They sometimes use the Biblical argument, but knowing it fails with most people they do a David Quinn "somebody please think of the children" (also proven to be invalid) with a few side arguments like always was a a man and woman etc, then sometimes realising neither arguments hold no water we see the abuse like ever affabale Patricia threw earlier - disgusting/disordered/and of course the lovely stereotyping that Patricia gave.

The use of terms like the 'Christian lobby' is particularly misleading...because it kinda puts everyone into the one basket. Personally, I have zero against gay people. I've gone to school with gay people and treated them no different than I would a black person, or someone from another country, or whatever. I've worked with gay people, I have a gay next door neighbour. When I see gay people on the telly, I don't go 'ugh'. But do I believe homosexual acts are wrong? Yes. Does the Bible forbid them? In the Old Testament? Clearly yes, very strongly. In the New Testament? Again clearly yes, equally strongly, although perhaps not with the same force of language - as they were written in different times.

TylerIE wrote: »

The LGBT forum is supposed to be a safe place for Lesbians, Gay men, and for trans and bisexual individuals. Those who are adjusting to their sexuality, fear coming out or have had bad experiences can discuss these issues in a safe place. For some LGBT people it will be the only place where they can speak to other LGBT individuals.

Hatred, dislike, disapproval, etc are more than readily available in in the real world, and theres enough reminders of the inequality on a daily basis, so theres no need for them to be supplemented in the LGBT forum by those wishing to evangelise.

If you read the LGBT forum charter it is quite clear that posts that are going to offend, attack or hurt LGBT individuals are prohibited.

I wasn't going against any of the parts of the charter you quote here. But I did feel it was probably not worth it posting there - so you prob won't find me there in the future. But if it did get even one person thinking about how doing what they do is wrong, then it would be worth it.

TylerIE

PatricaMcKay2 wrote: »

Personally Im a fan of the law in Cuba where homosexuality is Legal though its promotion is illegal.

Now no one would argue that Cuba isnt a thoroughly secular state, would they?

What do you mean by its "promotion"?
-
Nobody here is looking for promotion of homosexuality... It wouldnt really do anything to increase or decrease the number of gay men or lesbians after all - its not a very appealing option for hetrosexuals to "become" homosexual so promotion is kinda worthless - Surely you wouldnt be attracted to other women just because of some posters on bus stops reminding you that everybody should be treated equally?

TylerIE

PatricaMcKay2 wrote: »

Actually the level of "homophobia" in Russia and Serbia disgusted me.

Surely it cant possibly be as bad as the below, particularly the part in Bold?

PatricaMcKay2 wrote: »

Yes and no. Mental illnesses seem to heal a lot faster and to be rarer in the so called third world (the Irish Free State has the highest rate of mental illness in the EU). And maybe the reason that "western democracies" are the best place to be is because of their plundering and super-exploitation of the rest of the planet? There is a lot of horror behind the facade, underneath the soft inquity of our "liberalism". Its not the sexual acts per se that disgust me with homosexuality, its the incapcity for empathy, the shallowness and the smug self sufficiency that ineveitably accompany it and its celebration.

As for mental health in the developing world, your obviously clueless. Give us some stats from developing countries where they have actual proper mental health services and a comparison to Ireland?

In developing countries they dont even have the ability to record births no matter about mental health incidents? Persons with mental health issues are often left out to rot in the wilderness or imprisoned? Alcoholism is rampant? Governments are unable to record all incidents of suicide? Ive been to a number of developing countries, and visited, assisted in and even inspected mental health facilities in them. In one of the countries I was in there was one Psychiatric facility for over one third of countries population (and half the geographic area of the country). It had no doctors - indeed the only doctor with Psychiatric training in the region was a visiting Irish consultant.

PatricaMcKay2

TylerIE wrote: »

In developing countries they dont even have the ability to record births no matter about mental health incidents? Persons with mental health issues are often left out to rot in the wilderness or imprisoned? Alcoholism is rampant? Governments are unable to record all incidents of suicide? Ive been to a number of developing countries, and visited, assisted in and even inspected mental health facilities in them. In one of the countries I was in there was one Psychiatric facility for over one third of countries population (and half the geographic area of the country). It had no doctors - indeed the only doctor with Psychiatric training in the region was a visiting Irish consultant.

Have you actually ever been in a third world country? No, people recover quicker because of stronger families and stronger communites...Things money cant buy, so even with more limited material resources people can be better off.

And yes "homophobia" can be a lot worse that what I said...I dont endorse gay bashing or attacking gay pride parades, or advocate the death penalty for homosexuality....But given that you probably have typically limited Irish imagination maybe you cant imagine a large amount of people feeling that way?

PatricaMcKay2

TylerIE wrote: »

I could dislike, or even hate, you too (And it wouldnt be misogyny) it would be due to your horrid attitude - suggesting that draconian anti-homosexuality laws would eliminate LGBT individuals, but instead I feel more sympathy for you than hatred.
.

I never advocated draconian laws against homosexuality, I did though say that a more just and balanced society would greatly eliminate the amount of homosexuality...two different things.

"This was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride of wealth and food in plenty, comfort and ease, and yet she never helped the poor and the wretched." -- Ezekiel 16:49

There we see the cause of homosexuality largely.

PatricaMcKay2

TylerIE wrote: »

I cant see him being misogynistic, and arrogance isnt the word I would use..

Sure you wouldnt, and Im not surprised that you cant recognize either, just as you cant recognize that my attitude is honest as opposed to hate-filled. I wouldnt go to the LGBT forum here and if I did I would expect them to tell me exactly what they think of my views...You came to this forum, so what did you expect? Its not like being at work or a social occasion, you came to a Christian forum so expect to hear Christian views.

TylerIE

PatricaMcKay2 wrote: »

Have you actually ever been in a third world country? No, people recover quicker because of stronger families and stronger communites...Things money cant buy, so even with more limited material resources people can be better off.

LOL your joking on both counts. Iv spent a significant portion of my adult life in one third world country, and a much shorter period in another and visited more. Your initial comment implied we had more mental health issues in Ireland - we certainly dont, we just know about them.

Mental health issues can not just be fixed by families and stronger communities. It can help but real mental health issues require a lot more than that. And for your info, in case you didnt realise, gay men and lesbians (and trans individuals) often suffer from depression etc as a result of their mistreatment or fear of same.

And yes "homophobia" can be a lot worse that what I said...I dont endorse gay bashing or attacking gay pride parades, or advocate the death penalty for homosexuality....But given that you probably have typically limited Irish imagination maybe you cant imagine a large amount of people feeling that way?

The third world country I spent most of my time in had very strong anti-homosexuality laws, and Ive also lived and worked in one of the most conservative States in the US. In the first country there were people being imprisoned and subsequently raped by HIV+ persons for being gay. In the US state there had been fatal gay bashings in the very town I was based in. There had been unlawful arrests for "lewd behaviour" by men who were merely in a gay bar. It was acceptable, and even condoned, if you made snide comments about gays (or Catholics). Indeed I got enough wrath and attempted conversions for being a Catholic that I know I couldnt have lived there If id been an openly gay man or lesbian. I have worked in two of the most homo-phobic environments that you can be involved in in Ireland, I dont need imagination to know about homophobia.

Some of your comments earlier are so derogatory that they are just a step away from physical violence.

TylerIE

PatricaMcKay2 wrote: »

I never advocated draconian laws against homosexuality, I did though say that a more just and balanced society would greatly eliminate the amount of homosexuality...two different things.

"This was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride of wealth and food in plenty, comfort and ease, and yet she never helped the poor and the wretched." -- Ezekiel 16:49

There we see the cause of homosexuality largely.

That doesnt make sense - explain your interpretation of that passage?

A "more just and balanced society would eliminate" shows your deep misunderstanding of the issue.

Gay men or lesbians are gay or lesbian. Society being more just or equal or less just or less equal or more violent or less violent towards gays or more punitive towards gays or lesbians wont change the number of people who are gay or lesbian.... It might change the number of people who are honest about it, or increase the number of men who are sleeping with their wifes brother every other weekend, or increase the suicides among gay men, or the number of priests (Varying research averaging at about 1/3 of RC Priests being gay) , but it wont change the number of gay or lesbian individuals.

wonderfulname

TylerIE wrote: »

(Varying research averaging at about 1/3 of RC Priests being gay)

Can you furnish us with this?

TylerIE

wonderfulname wrote: »

Can you furnish us with this?

Just some general references is all I can find at the moment. An Irish Broadsheet had something over 15 years ago stating that it was about 50% of Irish priests but its not online that I can find. A lot of the American stuff is no longer online anymore either, but I have some links below.

Another researcher who has extensively studied the issue of AIDS within the church is the Rev. Thomas Crangle, a Franciscan priest in the Capuchin order in Passaic, N.J. In 1990, Crangle conducted a mail survey of hundreds of priests selected at random.

Crangle said that of the 500 surveys he sent, 398 were returned. About 45 percent of those responding volunteered that they were gay, and 92 -- nearly one-fourth -- said they had AIDS.

Link

Kansas City Star survey of 3000 priests - 801 replies.
15% said they were gay.

So averaging those as two of the more readily available pieces of research we have around 30%... There are higher suggestions floating around though.

The late Fr. Michael Judge, who died tragically in 9-11

Fay, who produced a documentary on the late Rev. Mychal Judge, the gay priest who was the Fire Department chaplain and died on the job in the 9/11 catastrophe, said that the crackdown will lead to “a less healthy and more dysfunctional clergy who will become more deeply closeted.” He and several others interviewed for this article estimated the percentage of gays in the priesthood as at least half.

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/week531/feature.html
one third of the way down on the left under the picture

PDN

This thread is descending into hysteria and becoming a train wreck. It is also getting way off topic and becoming unnecessarily pertsonal.