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(AU news) Grief to become a mental disorder

2

Comments

  • #32
    flutterflye
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,538 ✭✭✭flutterflye


    My mom died when I was 12 - 14 years ago.
    I never dealt with my loss, and I still very much grieve her.
    I get panic attacks, and have an irrational fear of abandonment.
    It hurts inside me so much that I want to get out of my skin.
    I have had depression about 30 times, and I'm generally completely messed up.
    This is not 'normal'.
    Yet, it is not a disorder, it is one of many triggers that lead to various disorders though.
    That article is very strange.


  • #33
    lastlaugh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,382 ✭✭✭lastlaugh


    From my experience, people grieve in different ways.
    If you can deal with the emotions early, come to terms with and get them out of your system so to speak, you are better off.
    People who are lonely or have no-one to talk to might be in danger of developing longer term physical & mental illnesses.

    If people cannot deal with their grief, then it should be considered a disorder. To grieve is not a disorder in itself, it's completely natural & an important part of life.
    If it gets to the stage where you can't get over it though, then it needs more attention, meds only deal with symptoms, not the underlying cause.

    Logical Fallacy wrote: »
    Not at all, grief and depression are too very different things that manifest in different ways.

    Depression can be caused/triggered by grief.


  • #34
    Logical Fallacy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,933 ✭✭✭Logical Fallacy


    lastlaugh wrote: »
    Depression can be caused/triggered by grief.

    Yes it can, but they are not the same thing and to classify them as such would be silly.


  • #35
    lastlaugh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,382 ✭✭✭lastlaugh


    flutterflye wrote: »
    My mom died when I was 12 - 14 years ago.
    I never dealt with my loss, and I still very much grieve her.
    I get panic attacks, and have an irrational fear of abandonment.
    It hurts inside me so much that I want to get out of my skin.
    I have had depression about 30 times, and I'm generally completely messed up.
    This is not 'normal'.
    Yet, it is not a disorder, it is one of many triggers that lead to various disorders though.
    That article is very strange.

    Hey flutterflye,

    You say you never dealt with your loss, I think you should try somehow, you should still miss her, but not still grieve for her.
    I think the term disorder is appropriate here because you recognise that is not 'normal' in the sense that you should have finished the grieving process, and because you haven't, you are experiencing depression.
    Councilling would be better than meds though IMO...


  • #36
    lastlaugh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,382 ✭✭✭lastlaugh


    Logical Fallacy wrote: »
    Not at all, grief and depression are too very different things that manifest in different ways.
    lastlaugh wrote: »
    Depression can be caused/triggered by grief.
    Logical Fallacy wrote: »
    Yes it can, but they are not the same thing and to classify them as such would be silly.

    So, depression caused by grief manifests itself differently than - depression?

    Is that what you are saying?


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  • #37
    D1stant
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,806 ✭✭✭D1stant


    ? Whats the fuss

    Grief can be a disorder just like any Posttraumatic stress disorder


  • #38
    LH Pathe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,515 ✭✭✭LH Pathe


    Play with your insanity

    Shatter your reality

    pulsing in your BLOOOOD =p


  • #39
    later12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,298 ✭✭✭✭later12


    Logical Fallacy wrote: »
    Not at all, grief and depression are too very different things that manifest in different ways.
    I said that at some length in another post, what I'm saying in the part you quoted is that it is my understanding that long term grief that these doctors are talking about is similar to clinical depression, or may even be indistinguishable from CD.

    As I said in another post, prolonged grief can be a burden expressed in many ways, not all of them direct 'mourning' for the death of a loved one.


  • #40
    SheFiend
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 362 ✭✭SheFiend


    lastlaugh wrote: »
    Hey flutterflye,

    You say you never dealt with your loss, I think you should try somehow,
    That's excellent advice; I can't imagine she has tried "Trying" before


  • #41
    lastlaugh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,382 ✭✭✭lastlaugh


    SheFiend wrote: »
    That's excellent advice; I can't imagine she has tried "Trying" before

    Good input Smartass. Anything else to contribute?


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  • #42
    flutterflye
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,538 ✭✭✭flutterflye


    lastlaugh wrote: »
    Hey flutterflye,

    You say you never dealt with your loss, I think you should try somehow, you should still miss her, but not still grieve for her.
    I think the term disorder is appropriate here because you recognise that is not 'normal' in the sense that you should have finished the grieving process, and because you haven't, you are experiencing depression.
    Councilling would be better than meds though IMO...

    Counselling in Ireland is a joke.
    It's mostly Rogerian style counselling.
    I've been looking around for years for a more helpful counselor; like reality therapy or something.
    But every time I find someone that say they are solution focused, they end up banging on about the past again.


  • #43
    lastlaugh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,382 ✭✭✭lastlaugh


    flutterflye wrote: »
    Counselling in Ireland is a joke.
    It's mostly Rogerian style counselling.
    I've been looking around for years for a more helpful counselor; like reality therapy or something.
    But every time I find someone that say they are solution focused, they end up banging on about the past again.

    Maybe they do that because you have not "never dealt" with the loss of your mother as you said.

    What do you expect from councilling?


  • #44
    Android 666
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,577 ✭✭✭Android 666


    lastlaugh wrote: »
    So, depression caused by grief manifests itself differently than - depression?

    Is that what you are saying?

    In the article it says
    "The reaction is about yearning and missing and longing and is distinct from anxiety and depression and is not responsive to treatment for depression,"

    I really can't see what the problem people have with this is. If somebody is still unable to function properly a year to two after losing a loved one would it not be preferable for those people to get some assistance that is tailored to their needs?


  • #45
    flutterflye
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,538 ✭✭✭flutterflye


    lastlaugh wrote: »
    Maybe they do that because you have not "never dealt" with the loss of your mother as you said.

    What do you expect from councilling?

    There are loads of different types.
    I expect them to be of help.
    To help me help myself.
    To help me to move on.
    Not to sit quietly and let me talk about things I've talked about for 14 years.
    Ireland is way behind.
    Psychologists here are helpful though.


  • #46
    lastlaugh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,382 ✭✭✭lastlaugh


    Android 666 wrote: »
    In the article it says

    "The reaction is about yearning and missing and longing and is distinct from anxiety and depression and is not responsive to treatment for depression,"

    But grieving can cause depression, would you agree?
    Android 666 wrote: »
    "The reaction is about yearning and missing and longing and is distinct from anxiety and depression and is not responsive to treatment for depression," "The reaction is about yearning and missing and longing and is distinct from anxiety and depression and is not responsive to treatment for depression,"
    I really can't see what the problem people have with this is. If somebody is still unable to function properly a year to two after losing a loved one would it not be preferable for those people to get some assistance that is tailored to their needs?

    I don't have a problem with people getting help at all.
    flutterflye wrote: »
    There are loads of different types.
    I expect them to be of help.
    To help me help myself.
    To help me to move on.
    Not to sit quietly and let me talk about things I've talked about for 14 years.
    Ireland is way behind.
    Psychologists here are helpful though.

    I can't advise you on the issues you have, good luck.


  • #47
    flutterflye
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,538 ✭✭✭flutterflye


    lastlaugh wrote: »
    I can't advise you on the issues you have, good luck.

    Thank you.
    But I didn't want you to advise me, I was just answering you.


  • #48
    mickydoomsux
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,287 ✭✭✭mickydoomsux


    Yet another thing to add to the list of things that can be "wrong" with people.

    Our society is doomed.


  • #49
    lastlaugh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,382 ✭✭✭lastlaugh


    flutterflye wrote: »
    Thank you.
    But I didn't want you to advise me, I was just answering you.

    You're welcome.
    Hopefully you get it sorted out.
    :)


  • #50
    Logical Fallacy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,933 ✭✭✭Logical Fallacy


    lastlaugh wrote: »
    So, depression caused by grief manifests itself differently than - depression?

    Is that what you are saying?

    Nope, and you are really stretching to try and imply that i am.


  • #51
    lastlaugh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,382 ✭✭✭lastlaugh


    Logical Fallacy wrote: »
    Nope, and you are really stretching to try and imply that i am.

    Seems like there's a logical fallacy in what you said to me.


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  • #52
    Android 666
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,577 ✭✭✭Android 666


    lastlaugh wrote: »
    But grieving can cause depression, would you agree?

    Yes it can. But what they're trying to treat is distinct from depression as the piece I quoted says. Normal treatments for depression don't apply.


  • #53
    girlonfire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 337 ✭✭girlonfire


    and ten steps backwards we go:rolleyes:


  • #54
    Logical Fallacy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,933 ✭✭✭Logical Fallacy


    lastlaugh wrote: »
    Seems like there's a logical fallacy in what you said to me.

    LoL, you need to learn more about Logical Fallacies.

    You're having trouble with a basic concept like grief is different to depression so i am not holding to hope for you.


  • #55
    lastlaugh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,382 ✭✭✭lastlaugh


    Android 666 wrote: »
    Yes it can. But what they're trying to treat is distinct from depression as the piece I quoted says. Normal treatments for depression don't apply.

    I'm trying to point out is that the grieving process can cause depression, which you agree with.
    Depression caused by grief manifests itself in the same way as 'normal' depression, to coin a phrase. That's all I suggesting.

    Point taken about the piece you highlighted.


  • #56
    lastlaugh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,382 ✭✭✭lastlaugh


    Logical Fallacy wrote: »
    LoL, you need to learn more about Logical Fallacies.

    You're having trouble with a basic concept like grief is different to depression so i am not holding to hope for you.

    You obviously fancy yourself as some logical maestro, yet you fail to see the contradiction in what you said to me?

    Unfortunately, I'm not the only one to have a problem with 'a basic concept like grief'.


  • #57
    Android 666
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,577 ✭✭✭Android 666


    lastlaugh wrote: »
    I'm trying to point out is that the grieving process can cause depression, which you agree with.
    Depression caused by grief manifests itself in the same way as 'normal' depression, to coin a phrase. That's all I suggesting.

    Point taken about the piece you highlighted.

    But lots of things can cause or trigger depression (not trying to denigrate anyone who is suffering from depression here) what they are looking to treat here is somebody who is basically locked into a grieving pattern way beyond what most normal people would endure and who does not respond to standard treatments for depression.


  • #58
    lastlaugh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,382 ✭✭✭lastlaugh


    Android 666 wrote: »
    But lots of things can cause or trigger depression (not trying to denigrate anyone who is suffering from depression here) what they are looking to treat here is somebody who is basically locked into a grieving pattern way beyond what most normal people would endure and who does not respond to standard treatments for depression.

    I acknowledge that.

    I think the grieving process, from my experience, can trigger different things, depression included, such as lowering your bodies immune system and making you susceptible to other illnesses. Not necessarily even after a year.

    Bottling emotions up or not addressing and acknowleding what you feel can only lead to trouble.


  • #59
    Logical Fallacy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,933 ✭✭✭Logical Fallacy


    lastlaugh wrote: »
    You obviously fancy yourself as some logical maestro, yet you fail to see the contradiction in what you said to me?

    Unfortunately, I'm not the only one to have a problem with 'a basic concept like grief'.

    I said grief and depression are not the same thing.

    That's its.

    They are not.

    Can grief lead to depression if a person does not deal with their grief in a healthy way, yes it can. Is this depression different to other depression?...only in the same way that all depression is different, in that it is an individuals experience with it's own individual root cause.

    Even the fact that your final sentence in your last post is taking half my sentence out of context tells me you have trouble with reasoned and structured argument.


  • #60
    Android 666
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,577 ✭✭✭Android 666


    lastlaugh wrote: »
    I acknowledge that.

    I think the grieving process, from my experience, can trigger different things, depression included, such as lowering your bodies immune system and making you susceptible to other illnesses. Not necessarily even after a year.

    Bottling emotions up or not addressing and acknowleding what you feel can only lead to trouble.

    I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at here in relation to the original article. Do you think that people that suffer sustained grief have been bottling up their emotions or do you think the therapy would try to get people to bottle them up?


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  • #61
    lastlaugh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,382 ✭✭✭lastlaugh


    Logical Fallacy wrote: »
    Not at all, grief and depression are too very different things that manifest in different ways.

    You say they are very different things, and they manifest in different ways. Let us proceed.
    lastlaugh wrote: »
    Depression can be caused/triggered by grief.
    Logical Fallacy wrote: »
    Yes it can, but they are not the same thing and to classify them as such would be silly.

    I was not classifying them as the same thing, merely pointing out that grieving can be a trigger for depression, to which you now agree.
    lastlaugh wrote: »
    So, depression caused by grief manifests itself differently than - depression?
    Is that what you are saying?
    Logical Fallacy wrote: »
    Nope, and you are really stretching to try and imply that i am.

    I'm not implying anything, I just want to know if you can recognize the contradiction in what you had already said.
    Logical Fallacy wrote: »
    I said grief and depression are not the same thing.
    That's its.
    They are not.
    Can grief lead to depression if a person does not deal with their grief in a healthy way, yes it can. Is this depression different to other depression?...only in the same way that all depression is different, in that it is an individuals experience with it's own individual root cause.

    Ah good, so now you say that grief can indeed manifest as depression, contrary to what you said initially.
    Logical Fallacy wrote: »
    Even the fact that your final sentence in your last post is taking half my sentence out of context tells me you have trouble with reasoned and structured argument.

    Rather arrogant aren't you?
    Logical Fallacy wrote: »
    You're having trouble with a basic concept like grief is different to depression so i am not holding to hope for you.

    Pfff


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