(AU news) Grief to become a mental disorder

locked_out

If someone you know dies, make sure you hide those kleenex from the feelings Police!

"So, medication is not going to help it." - Of course! - A natural response to a nasty situtation. I still miss some of the people I have known to have died. Isn't this supposed to be "normal"?

Saila

locked_out wrote: »

If someone you know dies, make sure you hide those kleenex from the feelings Police!

"So, medication is not going to help it." - Of course! - A natural response to a nasty situtation. I still miss some of the people I have known to have died. Isn't this supposed to be "normal"?

thats the thing with mental disorders, in the public eye they are seen as permanent, when in fact most are recoverable and have no defined path to where it leads. This is actually a good thing making grief a disorder, thats what these thing are, a disorder --> out of order or 'normality' but not permanent just like grief!

PseudoFamous

Why not just make all negative emotions mental disorders? It plusquick spread newthink.

later12

Grief is a normal emotional processing response to a traumatic event, how on earth can it be considered a disorder?

celticcrash

grief a mental disorder, what next, the pharmaceutical industry trying to
pull a fast one, sorry but you broke up with your parthner, is that grief
your showing, we will have none of them human feelings here, here
have a valium, what ever you do dont go through the natural process
of grief, get addicted to these pills instead.
Some Doctors are already doing this practice.

later12

Ah I just read this bit, which provides some clarity...

a new diagnosis for people still struggling to cope a year or more after a loved one dies.

It all depends on their definition of 'struggling to cope'.

How would such grief be differentiable from, say, clinical depression? e.g. weight changes/ fatigue/ sleep disturbances?

Would it not just be more accurate to say that the grief led to depression as opposed to classifying grief as a disorder in itself? After all, I had been of the opinion that there was a consensus that a trauma can trigger depression.

HazDanz

Mental Disorders they are a joke. Nice easy way of labeling people through the value judgments of psychiatrists.

*Runs for the door*

Victor

later10 wrote: »

Grief is a normal emotional processing response to a traumatic event, how on earth can it be considered a disorder?

A friend of mine (a South African) died (epilepsy) aged 26. As he had no family here, I had to do the repatriation arragements, coroner, Garda, embassy, employer, etc. It was a rough few weeks, until one day at 5:30pm, I said to myself "Right, I'll give Anton a shout and we'll go for a drink". Then I realised Anton coudn't go for drinks anymore. I then moved on.

My niece died at 15 months. I took 8 years to recover.

paddyandy

I had no mobile phone for a few hours and i felt a bit lost without it.Could that be a disorder too.Mobile deprivation anxiety syndrome.Would'nt look great on a sick note but it could be put in other terms.

Victor

paddyandy wrote: »

I had no mobile phone for a few hours and i felt a bit lost without it.Could that be a disorder too.Mobile deprivation anxiety syndrome.Would'nt look great on a sick note but it could be put in other terms.

No, because it doesn't affect your ability to lead an ordinary life on a day-to-day basis.

PseudoFamous

Victor wrote: »

No, because it doesn't affect your ability to lead an ordinary life on a day-to-day basis.

What about that feeling you get when you think you've lost your wallet but it's really in a different pocket than you normally keep it in; does that count?

zenno

the idiot so-called experts that come out with this garbage are the one's suffering from a mental disorder. jeas, what next.:rolleyes:

jimmycrackcorm

Famine starved Somalis have no concept of grief. So grief is relative to how hungry you are or whether or not you managed to get a touchpad...

Kojak

I get grief at work every day - can I now claim disability and get health money?

later12

Victor wrote: »

A friend of mine (a South African) died (epilepsy) aged 26. As he had no family here, I had to do the repatriation arragements, coroner, Garda, embassy, employer, etc. It was a rough few weeks, until one day at 5:30pm, I said to myself "Right, I'll give Anton a shout and we'll go for a drink". Then I realised Anton coudn't go for drinks anymore. I then moved on.

My niece died at 15 months. I took 8 years to recover.

When you say 'I then moved on', did you really though? Part of the problem I have with this classification of grief is that people grieve in lots of ways, and do not always express their anguish directly by say, lying in bed all day unable to get up and go about their activities. That's the 'romantic', prosaic type of grief you more usually find in romance novels.

Very often there is the inward form of grief, imperceptible to outsiders, that is lived through in bursts of unannounced personal moments of desolate misery. We all know people who suffer this type of grief, the aunt who turned alcoholic after her husband died, the younger man whose behaviour becomes erratic or unstable or violent in response to a trauma. There are countless examples, countless ways of grieving, and I dislike the simplistic packaging that this solution offers, whilst seeming to overlook all other ways in which a person might grieve.

In many of the more 'straightforward' cases, perhaps a better description of directly expressed emotional grief that is chronic is simply a form of clinical depression.

Grief itself is something far more complex and variable in its chronic form.

grizzly

The word disorder has been stigmatised.

I think this sounds reasonable. They're trying to offer help to people who are finding it difficult to to move on in long term cases – over a year. By calling it a disorder it gives people the opportunity to come forward to talk about their problem. Too often the attitude is to bottle everything up and suffer in silence, especially so with Irish males.

hondasam

Everyone copes with grief differently,for some people it could be months later before they start to grieve.
The sadness of losing someone you love never goes away completely.It’s normal to feel sad, angry even depending on the type of death.

Accepting the loss and moving forward is half the battle and will ease the pain.

Grief can feel very lonely at times, talking to other people with similar experiences can help.

hatrickpatrick

The thing is, the word "normal" is a term which is more or less defined as the vast majority.

The problem here is that the psychiatric profession now classifies SO F*CKING MANY states of mind as "disorders" (aka "problems") that there are a TINY number of people left who meet the definition of "normal".

Surely however, you can't call something "the standard" if it only applies to a miniscule, possibly non existent, portion of the population?

Our society's drive towards uniformity sickens, saddens, and scares me. Why are we so obsessed with making everyone identical and criticizing or alienating anyone who doesn't fit the profile? Who decides the profile anyway? Who's standards are kids being medicated and therapized to conform to?

I mean take one example - the vast majority of kids diagnosed with ADHD or similar are young boys. And it's always been clear enough to me that what society is calling a medical condition is in fact the eternal reality that young boys have bags of energy and don't like sitting still or concentrating for too long.

It's a sad, sad age. What are we doing to the human race? Why the hell are we trying to "perfect" it? "Perfect" to me doesn't translate to emotionless, identical robots anyway

People need to read "The Giver". It's far fetched but it's a fairly f*cking accurate picture of where our species is headed if we don't stop this over medication stuff. We urgently need to reject this notion that there is one perfect model which everyone needs to strive to be like. It's inaccurate, it's unhealthy, it's impossible, and it's going to make everyone absolutely miserable eventually. People will (and already do) feel like "failures" and "losers" because they don't match up.

End the madness. NOW.

Saila

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

The thing is, the word "normal" is a term which is more or less defined as the vast majority.

The problem here is that the psychiatric profession now classifies SO F*CKING MANY states of mind as "disorders" (aka "problems") that there are a TINY number of people left who meet the definition of "normal".

Surely however, you can't call something "the standard" if it only applies to a miniscule, possibly non existent, portion of the population?

Our society's drive towards uniformity sickens, saddens, and scares me. Why are we so obsessed with making everyone identical and criticizing or alienating anyone who doesn't fit the profile? Who decides the profile anyway? Who's standards are kids being medicated and therapized to conform to?

I mean take one example - the vast majority of kids diagnosed with ADHD or similar are young boys. And it's always been clear enough to me that what society is calling a medical condition is in fact the eternal reality that young boys have bags of energy and don't like sitting still or concentrating for too long.

It's a sad, sad age. What are we doing to the human race? Why the hell are we trying to "perfect" it? "Perfect" to me doesn't translate to emotionless, identical robots anyway

People need to read "The Giver". It's far fetched but it's a fairly f*cking accurate picture of where our species is headed if we don't stop this over medication stuff. We urgently need to reject this notion that there is one perfect model which everyone needs to strive to be like. It's inaccurate, it's unhealthy, it's impossible, and it's going to make everyone absolutely miserable eventually. People will (and already do) feel like "failures" and "losers" because they don't match up.

End the madness. NOW.

I dont think you are aware of how one ends up with a diagnosis in the first place, the condition has to be SIGNIFICANTLY affecting the day to day life of the individual, this is where the internets are more of a pain in the ass in regards people reading up on stuff and acting the psychiatrist and either rebelling the diagnosis or thinking the measures used to get to a diagnosis are so common to people that it is beyond rediculous to call it a condition/disorder

you dont have to take the meds they offer you either, unless you legally have to

paddyandy

Not everybody is able to use the english language forensically and there is no mercy shown.

mackg

When are they going to make horny a mental disorder and will the treatment be prostitutes?

conorhal

Oh good grief......

This kind of reminds me of that film Equilibrum, in which all human emotion is deemed destructive and inappropriate so the entire population is placed on a medication called Prozium to ensure we all functioned at 'optimum capacity', naturally anybody that is suspected of not taking the medication and shows a suggestion that they were experiencing emotions are criminalized.

dirtypanties

conorhal wrote: »

Oh good grief......

This kind of reminds me of that film Equilibrum, in which all human emotion is deemed destructive and inappropriate so the entire population is placed on a medication called Prozium to ensure we all functioned at 'optimum capacity', naturally anybody that is suspected of not taking the medication and shows a suggestion that they were experiencing emotions are criminalized.

Great movie!

miss no stars

I think it's a good idea. The definition only applies in the USA or other countries using their DSM (do other countries??), but I would say that it needs to be done in the USA. They don't have a welfare support system like we have here. For all I bitch about the welfare system here, it allows people to be human and supports people when they're going through hard times. In the USA it's much harder to access welfare and employers, from what I've heard from my American friends, can be very callous about time off. If a diagnosis means that people who are grieving can access the help they need, and be given the time they need to recover, then make it a disorder so that people can be diagnosed. I see it as similar to how most people wouldn't want their child to be diagnosed with a disorder, but if that diagnosis means that there's suddenly a whole load of new options and supports available, then the diagnosis is a good thing. Right? So a grief diagnosis could change "taking a personal day" to "taking a sick day". Which I would see as fair.

Liam Byrne

If something majorly traumatic happens, wouldn't it be more of a disorder if someone DIDN'T grieve? Suppressed feelings cause psychological and emotional damage, don't they?

So - damned if you do, and now damned if you don't!

Cue some weasel lawyer getting someone off in court because "grief" becomes the new, less definable "temporary insanity" :-P

My name is URL

PseudoFamous wrote: »

Why not just make all negative emotions mental disorders? It plusquick spread newthink.

That's the way things are headed. Only those capable of functioning at 100% in society like some sort of insensate robot will be considered 'normal'. Fcuking shameful

aaronjumper

I was going to give my opinion but it pretty much
matches the "thats bull" which has already been
mentioned in great detail above.

virtus1

Modern psychiatry really is a load of scientifically bankrupt bollocks peddled by for-profit drug companies. Just recently when the new DSM manual came out I saw that “premenstrual dysphoric disorder” was being proposed as a new disorder… by men of course :rolleyes: Most of the personality “disorders” listed in the DSM can be classified as perfectly normal and natural behaviours. Not to undermine the problems people experience with depression, social anxiety, obsession and such - Rather, our approach of stigmatizing people only reinforces their behaviour and encourages defeatism. Something really needs to change in psychiatry - it’s a quick fix compartmentalization industry which undermines people as complex individuals. That's my 2 cents anyway :pac:

7sr2z3fely84g5

the FML people will love this!.

SheFiend

While I agree that the classification of so-called "disorders" appears sterile and threatening to people's liberty, I would rather accept it as a method of defining a language through which problems can be addressed and people's lives improved, should they be struggling to overcome such a disorder.

A disorder is only a name for a problem. That problem is sometimes a personal thing, not necessarily a social problem.

It is far easier to refer to "Grief disorder" when the definition is known, rather than have to explain all the possible symptoms, causes, typical phases etc. which one would have to do in the absence of a recognized definition.

Logical Fallacy

later10 wrote: »

Would it not just be more accurate to say that the grief led to depression as opposed to classifying grief as a disorder in itself? After all, I had been of the opinion that there was a consensus that a trauma can trigger depression.

Not at all, grief and depression are too very different things that manifest in different ways.

flutterflye

My mom died when I was 12 - 14 years ago.
I never dealt with my loss, and I still very much grieve her.
I get panic attacks, and have an irrational fear of abandonment.
It hurts inside me so much that I want to get out of my skin.
I have had depression about 30 times, and I'm generally completely messed up.
This is not 'normal'.
Yet, it is not a disorder, it is one of many triggers that lead to various disorders though.
That article is very strange.

lastlaugh

From my experience, people grieve in different ways.
If you can deal with the emotions early, come to terms with and get them out of your system so to speak, you are better off.
People who are lonely or have no-one to talk to might be in danger of developing longer term physical & mental illnesses.

If people cannot deal with their grief, then it should be considered a disorder. To grieve is not a disorder in itself, it's completely natural & an important part of life.
If it gets to the stage where you can't get over it though, then it needs more attention, meds only deal with symptoms, not the underlying cause.

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

Not at all, grief and depression are too very different things that manifest in different ways.

Depression can be caused/triggered by grief.

Logical Fallacy

lastlaugh wrote: »

Depression can be caused/triggered by grief.

Yes it can, but they are not the same thing and to classify them as such would be silly.

lastlaugh

flutterflye wrote: »

My mom died when I was 12 - 14 years ago.
I never dealt with my loss, and I still very much grieve her.
I get panic attacks, and have an irrational fear of abandonment.
It hurts inside me so much that I want to get out of my skin.
I have had depression about 30 times, and I'm generally completely messed up.
This is not 'normal'.
Yet, it is not a disorder, it is one of many triggers that lead to various disorders though.
That article is very strange.

Hey flutterflye,

You say you never dealt with your loss, I think you should try somehow, you should still miss her, but not still grieve for her.
I think the term disorder is appropriate here because you recognise that is not 'normal' in the sense that you should have finished the grieving process, and because you haven't, you are experiencing depression.
Councilling would be better than meds though IMO...

lastlaugh

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

Not at all, grief and depression are too very different things that manifest in different ways.

lastlaugh wrote: »

Depression can be caused/triggered by grief.

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

Yes it can, but they are not the same thing and to classify them as such would be silly.

So, depression caused by grief manifests itself differently than - depression?

Is that what you are saying?

D1stant

? Whats the fuss

Grief can be a disorder just like any Posttraumatic stress disorder

LH Pathe

Play with your insanity

Shatter your reality

pulsing in your BLOOOOD =p

later12

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

Not at all, grief and depression are too very different things that manifest in different ways.

I said that at some length in another post, what I'm saying in the part you quoted is that it is my understanding that long term grief that these doctors are talking about is similar to clinical depression, or may even be indistinguishable from CD.

As I said in another post, prolonged grief can be a burden expressed in many ways, not all of them direct 'mourning' for the death of a loved one.

SheFiend

lastlaugh wrote: »

Hey flutterflye,

You say you never dealt with your loss, I think you should try somehow,

That's excellent advice; I can't imagine she has tried "Trying" before

lastlaugh

SheFiend wrote: »

That's excellent advice; I can't imagine she has tried "Trying" before

Good input Smartass. Anything else to contribute?

flutterflye

lastlaugh wrote: »

Hey flutterflye,

You say you never dealt with your loss, I think you should try somehow, you should still miss her, but not still grieve for her.
I think the term disorder is appropriate here because you recognise that is not 'normal' in the sense that you should have finished the grieving process, and because you haven't, you are experiencing depression.
Councilling would be better than meds though IMO...

Counselling in Ireland is a joke.
It's mostly Rogerian style counselling.
I've been looking around for years for a more helpful counselor; like reality therapy or something.
But every time I find someone that say they are solution focused, they end up banging on about the past again.

lastlaugh

flutterflye wrote: »

Counselling in Ireland is a joke.
It's mostly Rogerian style counselling.
I've been looking around for years for a more helpful counselor; like reality therapy or something.
But every time I find someone that say they are solution focused, they end up banging on about the past again.

Maybe they do that because you have not "never dealt" with the loss of your mother as you said.

What do you expect from councilling?

Android 666

lastlaugh wrote: »

So, depression caused by grief manifests itself differently than - depression?

Is that what you are saying?

In the article it says

"The reaction is about yearning and missing and longing and is distinct from anxiety and depression and is not responsive to treatment for depression,"

I really can't see what the problem people have with this is. If somebody is still unable to function properly a year to two after losing a loved one would it not be preferable for those people to get some assistance that is tailored to their needs?

flutterflye

lastlaugh wrote: »

Maybe they do that because you have not "never dealt" with the loss of your mother as you said.

What do you expect from councilling?

There are loads of different types.
I expect them to be of help.
To help me help myself.
To help me to move on.
Not to sit quietly and let me talk about things I've talked about for 14 years.
Ireland is way behind.
Psychologists here are helpful though.

lastlaugh

Android 666 wrote: »

In the article it says

"The reaction is about yearning and missing and longing and is distinct from anxiety and depression and is not responsive to treatment for depression,"

But grieving can cause depression, would you agree?

Android 666 wrote: »

"The reaction is about yearning and missing and longing and is distinct from anxiety and depression and is not responsive to treatment for depression," "The reaction is about yearning and missing and longing and is distinct from anxiety and depression and is not responsive to treatment for depression,"
I really can't see what the problem people have with this is. If somebody is still unable to function properly a year to two after losing a loved one would it not be preferable for those people to get some assistance that is tailored to their needs?

I don't have a problem with people getting help at all.

flutterflye wrote: »

There are loads of different types.
I expect them to be of help.
To help me help myself.
To help me to move on.
Not to sit quietly and let me talk about things I've talked about for 14 years.
Ireland is way behind.
Psychologists here are helpful though.

I can't advise you on the issues you have, good luck.

flutterflye

lastlaugh wrote: »

I can't advise you on the issues you have, good luck.

Thank you.
But I didn't want you to advise me, I was just answering you.

mickydoomsux

Yet another thing to add to the list of things that can be "wrong" with people.

Our society is doomed.

lastlaugh

flutterflye wrote: »

Thank you.
But I didn't want you to advise me, I was just answering you.

You're welcome.
Hopefully you get it sorted out.

Logical Fallacy

lastlaugh wrote: »

So, depression caused by grief manifests itself differently than - depression?

Is that what you are saying?

Nope, and you are really stretching to try and imply that i am.

lastlaugh

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

Nope, and you are really stretching to try and imply that i am.

Seems like there's a logical fallacy in what you said to me.