Munster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread.

bamboozle · 22-08-2011 09:23AM

phog wrote: »

Surname FirstName Caps Points
Zebo Simon 10 10
Willaim Duncan 14 0
Sherry Mike 21 5
O'Mahony Peter 11 0
O'Donnell Tommy 26 10
Nagle Ian 11 0
Murray Conor 13 0
Hurley Daragh 36 5
Henry Sean 3 0
Gleeson Tom 12 5
Foley Dave 2 0
Earls Keith 59 100
Dineen Ivan 3 5
Deasy Scott 21 19
Cusack Declan 4 0
Butler Paddy 2 0
Barnes Danny 9 10
Archer Stephen 12 0

how many of these have started or played any significant HC time apart from Earls?

CIARAN_BOYLE · 22-08-2011 10:29AM

phog wrote: »

Surname FirstName Caps Points
Zebo Simon 10 10
Willaim Duncan 14 0
Sherry Mike 21 5
O'Mahony Peter 11 0
O'Donnell Tommy 26 10
Nagle Ian 11 0
Murray Conor 13 0
Hurley Daragh 36 5
Henry Sean 3 0
Gleeson Tom 12 5
Foley Dave 2 0
Earls Keith 59 100
Dineen Ivan 3 5
Deasy Scott 21 19
Cusack Declan 4 0
Butler Paddy 2 0
Barnes Danny 9 10
Archer Stephen 12 0

If you are judging Daragh Hurley as young I will add Healy, Toner, Fitz R Kearney and probably a few others to the Leinster list all of which are younger than Darragh Hurley

buck65 · 22-08-2011 10:49AM

A preseason side is markedly different from a HCup side. How many of those players will be in the shakeup for places in November?
Yes Leinster have a fantastic academy, yes they are bringing players through but like Munster they aren't really giving them a shot on the big stage apart from one or two.
Leinster made a raft of signings this summer, like it or not it is hardly a glowing confidence boost for their young players.
Fionn Carr was developed by Connacht btw, just as Cronin was. Same with Keatley.

22-08-2011 11:08AM

buck65 wrote: »

A preseason side is markedly different from a HCup side. How many of those players will be in the shakeup for places in November?
Yes Leinster have a fantastic academy, yes they are bringing players through but like Munster they aren't really giving them a shot on the big stage apart from one or two.
Leinster made a raft of signings this summer, like it or not it is hardly a glowing confidence boost for their young players.
Fionn Carr was developed by Connacht btw, just as Cronin was. Same with Keatley.

Raft of signings? We have an aging second row, one who's left (Hines) and so signed Sykes and Browne in order to ensure continuity as the senior players leave, as none of our current young second rows are pushing for places.

We've signed a #10 in Berquist as our two back-ups are still very young, and had it not been a WC year, I doubt it would've happened. But we can't do without a first choice OH for the duration of the World Cup, and considering the difficulties that McKinley has faced, it would've meant we'd be looking at asking Noel Reid to provide back up for Madigan.

We have brought Cronin in who will challenge Strauss for the top slot, I personally think that this was a poor move for Cronin, and seemed like a panic move from Leinster after losing 2 senior hookers last season.

Fionn Carr is returning to Leinster after a succesful period out West when he proved the naysayers wrong. Again, this move might not seem to make a lot of sense, but Horgan is not going to last forever, and there was the possibility we'd be without McFadden and Fitz for the WC.

Hagan replacing Stan is a fantastic move for Ireland and Leinster btw, he will hopefully learn a lot from Ross, and the competition will do them both well. Ross is not a young man anymore, and Leinster are building a team to stick around the top for the next 5/6 years at least.

Any other transfers that need to be justified? I don't think that anyone bar JHW and Dave Kearney have been put out much by any of these transfers tbh.

buck65 · 22-08-2011 11:29AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Any other transfers that need to be justified? I don't think that anyone bar JHW and Dave Kearney have been put out much by any of these transfers tbh.

So Leinster have no outhalf, scrumhalf or backrow players up to 5 or 6 rounds of the League til the Irish contingent come back?

GerM · 22-08-2011 11:34AM

buck65 wrote: »

Yes Leinster have a fantastic academy, yes they are bringing players through but like Munster they aren't really giving them a shot on the big stage apart from one or two.

This has been done to death so I'm not going to pull out the facts and figures. A side will play their strongest XV in a big game. That's simple enough. So no academy player or new kid on the block is going to get a game ahead of BOD or Cullen or Horgan etc when it comes to a crunch clash. It's about giving them significant game time at professional level and introducing them into the intensity of it so they're able to play at that level when required. You don't turn around and ditch a great player who is 30 for a good player who is 21 in a must win match. Many players in Leinster and Ulster have been given this exposure and have enough experience in the bag now that I'd have no worries about them being involved on the bigger stage such as last season when EOM, Ryan, Gilroy, Spence and Ruddock all started HEC games and adapted to the level seamlessly.

22-08-2011 11:36AM

buck65 wrote: »

So Leinster have no outhalf, scrumhalf or backrow players up to 5 or 6 rounds of the League til the Irish contingent come back?

what?

Read my previous post perhaps...
5 or 6 rounds of the league can be the difference between playing HEC next season or not.

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Final list of signings for the new season
Jamie Hagan
Nathan White Short term world cup cover
Sean Cronin
Steven Sykes
David Gannon Not listed in the squad but played v Revels and has a new profile pic in his profile on the Leinster website
Damian Browne
Leo Auva'a
Cillian Willis Short term world cup cover
Mat Berquist
Fionn Carr

CIARAN_BOYLE · 22-08-2011 11:37AM

buck65 wrote: »

If Leinster have so much talent coming through surely 5 or 6 signings would have put a few more people out?

Maguire is put out but he has moved west (which might be a sustainable model send young talent west to gain experience). Sheriff was let go but he had injury issues and was let go, he later failed a medical with Saracens. EOD is probably put out but Joe doesn't rate him at all it seems.

Conway mightn't be happy to see Carr, I know Morris and Keating weren't happy and left.

durkadurka · 22-08-2011 11:41AM

Morris left specifically for gametime. He's well thought of in the setup there.

buck65 · 22-08-2011 11:42AM

Deleted User wrote: »

what?

Read my post perhaps...

Emmet I read your post and you have completely agreed with my point raised earlier that for all the wonderful young talent coming through in Leinster very few are getting a crack at the first team in any meaningful way.
The fact that Leinster were allowed by the IRFU to strengthen their squad in such a way mystifies me. I know if Munster had done it in the same way you would be posting about it.

22-08-2011 11:43AM

That's actually a huge thing to note btw, Leinster's production line is producing professional rugby players. Just because they don't all make it at Leinster doesn't mean the acadamey is underperforming.

I'd like to see a conversion rate from the Leinster Academy vs the Munster Academy tbh. I'd say it would speak volumes.

GerM · 22-08-2011 11:44AM

buck65 wrote: »

If Leinster have so much talent coming through surely 5 or 6 signings would have put a few more people out?

Not really. Berquist, Browne and Carr are all only on a 1 year deal in a WC year where our squad is going to be stretched. If they perform then great but I don't see them being major obstacles to those who are coming through. White is prop cover given that 3 props may be called up to Irish duty. Sykes was required given that we've lost 2 international locks in the last year and our last one will retire in the next season or two.

buck65 · 22-08-2011 11:46AM

Speak volumes?
Yes it would but you assume I am comparing the two. I am not. Leinster's is probably 5 years ahead of Munster's , everyone knows that.
I am not trying to turn this into a pissing contest between 2 provinces, my point is more about the perceived strength of the players coming out of the Leinster academy and their lack of first team exposure.

Regarding Munster's academy though I would say that it really has come on alot under McGahan and last year he really gave a few lads a decent run. Unfortunately a couple of them picked up injuries and missed a few games that they would have gotten more gametime if fit.
Guys like Nagle , Barnes for instance spent a few months out while Murray, Archer, Zebo are also very close to starting in HCup games.

22-08-2011 11:47AM

buck65 wrote: »

Speak volumes?
Yes it would but you assume I am comparing the two. I am not. Leinster's is probably 5 years ahead of Munster's , everyone knows that.
I am not trying to turn this into a pissing contest between 2 provinces, my point is more about the perceived strength of the players coming out of the Leinster academy and their lack of first team exposure.

But the thing is, is that that's just not true, there's been plenty of evidence of first team appearances, and players not looking out of place with the first team either.

Anyway, I think we should shift this to the Leinster thread tbh!

justsomebloke · 22-08-2011 11:48AM

ok lads enough this thread isn't the place for this.

justsomebloke · 22-08-2011 11:50AM

Deleted User wrote: »

I think we should shift this to the Leinster thread tbh!

if you want to continue it start a new thread as there is no need to shift it to the leinster thread

GerM · 22-08-2011 11:51AM

buck65 wrote: »

The fact that Leinster were allowed by the IRFU to strengthen their squad in such a way mystifies me. I know if Munster had done it in the same way you would be posting about it.

Because it's a WC year and the panel is heavily affected by call ups which would leave an extremely threadbare squad. Half the signings are short term just to cover this season. Munster didn't recruit as heavily because they didn't need to. They already have the biggest squad in the country. After all the signings Munster still possess a larger playing squad.

buck65 · 22-08-2011 12:02PM

Actually I don't think I've ever posted on the Leinster site, maybe once wishing them well in the HCup.

theKramer · 22-08-2011 12:25PM

The downside now of TOL not going to the WC is that he is gonna make shíte of our backline until Murray comes back

vinny chase · 22-08-2011 12:27PM

theKramer wrote: »

The downside now of TOL not going to the WC is that he is gonna make shíte of our backline until Murray comes back

You still have Stringer, who is a far better player than O'Leary.

Tomtom364 · 22-08-2011 12:39PM

After the WC squad announcment.

Munster Team during the WC

15. Johnny Murphy
14. Doug Howlett
13. Danny Barnes
12. Leifimi Mafi
11. Simon Zebo
10. Ian Keatley
9. Peter Stringer
1. Marcus Horan
2. Mike SHerry
3. John Hayes
4. Mick O'Driscoll
5. Ian Nagle
6. Tommy O'Donnell
7. Peter O'Mahony
8. James Coughlan

16. Damien Varley
17. Stephen Archer
18. Wian Du Preez
19. Billy Holland
20. Niall Ronan
21. Tomas O'Leary
22. Scott Deasy
23. Dennis Hurley

Injured: Felix Jones, BJ Botha

CIARAN_BOYLE · 22-08-2011 12:47PM

Is Hayes available. I thought he was finished in a Munster jersey.

Risteard · 22-08-2011 12:49PM

Tomtom364 wrote: »

After the WC squad announcment.
Team

I'd like to see:

15.TOL
14.Howlett
13.Barnes
12.Mafi
11.Zebo
10.Keatley
9. Stringer
8.Coughlan
7.O'Mahony
6.DOC 2.0
5.Nagle
4.MOD
3.Archer
2.Sherry
1.Horan

16.Varley 17.Du Preez 18.Ryan/Cotter 19.Foley 20. O'Donnell 21. Williams 22.Cusack 23. Murphy

Now, I know what you're thinking, 'TOL at 15? You're crazy!' But I've been of the opinion that TOL is a fine rugby player, just a poor scrum-half. I think he's a good footballer and is quick and strong, I wouldn't mind seeing him at fullback to see how he does.

As for props, I wouldn't like to see Hayes playing. It would be incredibly short sighted considering he'll be gone after the WC, so Archer should get games. He's been on an upward curve lately IMO, and with game time and Botha helping out he can get better. Have Ryan/Cotter on the bench subbing TH (Not sure if Ryan is a TH or LH) du Preez on the bench but tbh, I'd like to see Hurley there. I think du Preez was a bit of an 'unnecessary' buy for the long term considering we have some LH coming through, but they see reduced gametime.

Also like to Butler get some game time as well.

Buceph · 22-08-2011 12:58PM

Tomtom364 wrote: »

After the WC squad announcment.

Munster Team during the WC

15. Johnny Murphy Solid player, will be a good influence.
14. Doug HowlettProbably should be captain. The best player in the team.
13. Danny Barnes A chance to prove his consitency. Did great in defense and was aggressive in attack, let's see if he can prove it over a campaign
12. Leifimi Mafi With the right tactics he could be back to his first season form that he had with Tipoki. He seemed to be getting there towards the end of last season
11. Simon Zebo Like Barnes, he's made a name for himself, now he needs to prove it over a longer time period
10. Ian Keatley This is his golden opportunity. Could easily jump Paddy Wallace to third choice and set himself up for a battle with Sexton once Rog is gone.
9. Peter Stringer Has been a bit off form, seems the World Cup business has him on a downer. Great chance with TOL being down the ranks to become the default option for Munster again.
1. Marcus Horan For all said about his scrummaging he still holds his own and is an absolutely positive influence on the scrum. Old heads will prevail.
2. Mike SHerry This is probably the most competitive spot in Munster. Needs to be snapping at Flannery's heals.
3. John Hayes This is the only place I strongly disagree with you. Mixing Archer with Horan would be the right thing to bring people up to speed. And Hayes is fla'ed anyway. Let him provide cover and go out without killing himself
4. Mick O'Driscoll If Dougie isn't captain then it's going to be Micko. Although he has a big fight on his hands. With DOC in poor form it's up to Micko to take his place, and that's with Nagle chomping at the bit to move up the ranks
5. Ian Nagle Top quality player, has real potential and this should be his season to cement his place. If Micko, POC, and DOC were all on form, I could still see Nagle taking POC's partnership place.
6. Tommy O'Donnell TOD was playing Seven with POM at six on Friday. Still, TOD was ferocious in defense, and hits big. If McGahan stopped insisting in having him out with the centres and let him work around the fringes we might see his attacking ability as well
7. Peter O'Mahony A fiery character indeed. Showed some great attacking ability in the A's last year. If that converts to full matches he and TOD will be have our backrow set up for years. He just needs to rein in his temper a little. His eagerness(or indiscipline) has gotten him into trouble.
8. James Coughlan Would probably start ahead of Leamy if Leamy was with us. Great performances last year. Maybe some doubts at the higher levels, but a real leader at Pro12 level.

17. Stephen Archer I'd have him starting ahead of Hayes. Really aggressive. Probably the most noticeable on the pitch of our newer forwards. Really gets the hard yards.

That's my thoughts on your first team anyway, at least the players in it.

Edit: As someone said, "Is Hayes available." I thought it was World Cup or bust. We have no props with the Irish team so he's not temporary cover.

phog · 22-08-2011 01:29PM

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

If you are judging Daragh Hurley as young I will add Healy, Toner, Fitz R Kearney and probably a few others to the Leinster list all of which are younger than Darragh Hurley

Just to explain what I did as I didnt add any cooment whne posting, didn't really have time.

I saw McFadden being listed I looked up his DOB and used that as the guide to filter out the players I listed from the current munster squad, I have the acadamey players listed so couldnt filter those.

CatFromHue · 22-08-2011 01:41PM

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Is Hayes available. I thought he was finished in a Munster jersey.

I think when Hayes left the park on Thursday against Connacht that was his last game. Very sad to see! He isn't in the Irish squad and as far as I know is not in the Munster squad (unless he provides cover during the World Cup but considering no Munster prop is going I can't see this happening).

CIARAN_BOYLE · 22-08-2011 02:14PM

CatFromHue wrote: »

I think when Hayes left the park on Thursday against Connacht that was his last game. Very sad to see! He isn't in the Irish squad and as far as I know is not in the Munster squad (unless he provides cover during the World Cup but considering no Munster prop is going I can't see this happening).

He has been training with Ireland so he is fit. That means I wouldn't be 100% surprised if he is asked to cover Botha's injury. That said I reckon he isn't going to be asked to do it. Archershould get his shot

thomond2006 · 22-08-2011 02:29PM

I reckon the team that plays the majority of the game against London Irish will be the "ML 1st team" during the world cup.

Archer should be first choice with Hayes as backup. Botha is fairly injury prone so Archer needs to be able to step up when needed.

Judgement Day · 22-08-2011 02:34PM

CatFromHue wrote: »

I think when Hayes left the park on Thursday against Connacht that was his last game. Very sad to see! He isn't in the Irish squad and as far as I know is not in the Munster squad (unless he provides cover during the World Cup but considering no Munster prop is going I can't see this happening).

Given what happened on the Lions tour I hope John Hayes keeps his kit packed.

I like the look of Munster's WC squad as long as TOL is given a holiday. I can't wait to see Simon Zebo in action again, his robbing of Connacht's Gavin Duffy and subsequent try was one of my high points of the year so far.

Cpt_Blackbeard · 22-08-2011 02:53PM

I'm pretty sure that there was a John Hayes appreciation thread but, as I can't find one I'll say what I have to here.

With the announcement of the Ireland WC squad and the omission of John Hayes, we can now assume that the great man has retired. Everything that can be has already been said but, I have to say that this is the most fitting way for him to go out. Amid the clamour to discuss the world cup squad, Hayes can now melt away into the background without any great attention.

A true Ireland and Munster rugby legend. Gwan the Bull, 'tis your field!!

Munster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread.

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