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Teachers to oppose Quinn's education reforms

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  • 18-08-2011 9:30am
    #1
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭


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    #2
    coffee_cake
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,309 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    I'm glad they're looking at education reform, because it badly needs it. Continuous assessment and inspections will be good things.
    Hopefully "Mr Quinn... has asked Minister of State Seán Sherlock to examine ways of improving the performance in mathematics in the short term" won't mean "let's take out the hard stuff and mark scripts more leniently" though

    I wonder if the "The union says it will firmly oppose any new scheme in which teachers assess their own pupils" part is just opposition to any new kind of system, or if they have a problem with the possibility of teachers being biased or coming in for trouble from disgruntled students getting low marks on c.a.? Cynic in me says the former considering their opposition to inspections, but I wonder what else they have to say about it

    Here we go, maybe
    By Sean Flynn, Education Editor, The Irish Times

    Continuous assessment by teachers of their own pupils

    For: Some educationalists say this is is the best way to lift the pressure of the one terminal exam from students.

    Teachers, they say, should assess their own pupils , on several occasions during fifth and sixth year and this would account for a good percentage of marks in each subject.

    Students are assessed by their own teachers at third-level - so why not at second-level?

    Against: Those opposed argue that continuous assessment would undermine the role of teachers as supporters of their students.

    There are also concerns that teachers - especially in small communities - could come under pressure from parents and others. Say what you like about the Leaving Cert, but everyone is marked to the same standard - irrespective of their social background. Continuous assessment could undermine the treasured independence of the exam system.

    Most likely scenario: With the ASTI vehemently opposed to continuous assessment by the pupils' own teachers, an alternative form is likely to find favour. Under this model, external examiners would assess the work of students in all Leaving Cert subjects on, say, three occasions during senior cycle. On an initial basis, about 25 per cent of the marks in a subject would be allocated before the student sits the exam.
    They do possibly have a point. Whatever about external examiners, perhaps they could have teachers marking continuous assessment from other schools or something? I don't know how practical it is, but it would give the benefit of c.a. while still having some anonymity


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    #3
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    bluewolf wrote: »
    I wonder if the "The union says it will firmly oppose any new scheme in which teachers assess their own pupils" part is just opposition to any new kind of system

    I'd imagine this is just standard PS union tactics: oppose everything, and only give way under extreme pressure at the 11th hour to give your members the impression you're doing something for your union dues. If they just roll over, members will ask why the PS needs unions.


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    #4
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,138 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    There are already subjects where teachers can (and do) assess their own students' work - it just requires a monitoring teacher to visit and double check that the marking is consistent with what is happening nationally.

    The TUI does not have an issue with it, as long as people are paid for the extra work involved.

    Unannounced inspections would be great. Let them see what it's really like to have a class including 18 children on IEPs or IBPs without any support. Bring it on.


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    #5
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


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    #6
    coffee_cake
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,309 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.
    Yeah, that's why I'm worried at that comment and the other "Long-term solutions were no longer sufficient and urgent action was required, Prof MacCraith added. “This time next year we need to start seeing a difference.". What long term solutions have they tried in the first place? Proper long term solutions might mean better qualified teachers for maths and a bit of an overhaul from primary level. Not changing a leaving cert curriculum slightly with no change in teaching methods.
    The only way you're going to see a difference in actual results next year is to do something stupid.

    Continuous assessment has been implemented effectively in other countries, so it will be interesting to see the unions' rationale for why it can't possibly be done here.
    Do they do it with their own teachers in other countries, or external people with supervision or something?


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    #7
    Spudmonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 2,857 ✭✭✭Spudmonkey


    While I'd like to think the problem of declining results could be limited to a single cause, I don't think its really as simple as that.

    While I learned first hand that the quality of some younger teachers (who subbed for some of our older more experienced ones) is fair from something to write home about, they aren't entirely to blame. The students themselves also have to carry the can.

    Not that its their fault either however but constant distractions outside of school such as the increase in the use of the net (which didn't even exist when I was a kid), x-box's and various other things are adding to it. Distractions which for some are simply too strong to keep them focused on the things they should be.

    Also initiatives such as introducing ipads to schools? Seriously? Maths is something you work out on paper with a little rough work column to the side where you can do quick calculations. You certainly can't do these things on ipads, no matter how progressive it makes us seem.


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    #8
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


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    #9
    Alopex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 632 ✭✭✭Alopex


    Head of maths teaching, Ann Barry-Murphy, said it was "absolutely crucial" that Leaving Cert students be taught by teachers who were masters of maths as a subject.

    "They (students) can sense any weakness or uncertainty. You absolutely must be a master of what you are teaching in the classroom," she said.

    That is so true. In all subjects to an extent but especially maths.

    I am really annoyed at Quinn for his position on student loans but at least he's getting it right with reforms at school. Unannounced inspections should be mandatory


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    #10
    libra02
    Registered Users Posts: 377 ✭✭libra02


    I think careful thought needs to go into reforming the LC. It could be all to easy just to "dumb down" the papers or mark them much easier.

    I think one of the ways which may help is instead of getting rid of transition year, keep the seconday school cycle as 6 years but extend the Leaving Cert cycle over 3 years so have it 4-6th year maybe with some of the exams being taken at end of 5th year and final at end of 6th year.

    Also this C.A while sounds a good idea will depend on what exactly format will these takes- will it be project work- not a good idea as open to other's doing work for them, or will it be exams held in class.

    Also the exams will have to be sent out to external markers. Fairest way to do that so no bias or teacher under pressure from parents or students who for some reason think they deserve a certain grade because in their mind they know what is expected and how to mark a paper.

    However no matter what is done students will still complain about the exams and pressure but look we all did the LC and came through it. They will encounter more stress, pressure in college and when they enter the working world so they cannot expect everything to be easy and stress free. Might sound harsh but it is true.


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    #11
    Alopex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 632 ✭✭✭Alopex


    Seems mad everyone does the leaving cert. waste of time for a lot of people. Should make the junior cert more like ordinary level leaving cert and make higher level an optional two years.

    the current system is part of the reason graduates are queuing up to work in mcdonalds


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    #12
    Dirk Gently
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,784 ✭✭✭Dirk Gently


    I'm all in favour of continuous assessment over learning exam papers of by heart for one big bottle neck exam but how is it proposed to be implemented? Will the work be posted off to other schools and marked? I can see a horrible situation developing where teachers mark their own students which I dont think is practical as teachers will want to give the best results possible from their own point of view.

    Accountability and transparency in the grading process is essential. The most efficient way from an economic point of view would be having teachers assess their own class of students but I think to maintain standards it will be necessary for them to be marked by outside unconnected teachers from other schools. The trade off between cost efficiency and standards will be interesting. Last thing you want is everyone getting unmerited high grades from their own teachers and calling that progress.


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    #13
    Manach
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,674 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    In regard poor maths results: perhaps the government, given its complete failure to balance budget sums, would not be the ones best placed to fix the situation.

    As for teachers being judged based on performance, given the UK situation Incompetent teachers 'being recycled', I doubt the situation in Ireland will be anyway different.


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    #14
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


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    #15
    Mr.Micro
    Registered Users Posts: 5,336 ✭✭✭Mr.Micro


    The problem with Maths teaching is that often any teacher, particularly a science one is expected to teach maths, as well as science.To me this is where the trouble starts. Imagine a maths teacher being expected to teach science. Maths need to be taught by a maths teacher, nobody else. Irish or what?


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    #16
    BluntGuy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 ✭✭✭BluntGuy


    Mr.Micro wrote: »
    The problem with Maths teaching is that often any teacher, particularly a science one is expected to teach maths, as well as science. To me this is where the trouble starts. Imagine a maths teacher being expected to teach science. Maths need to be taught by a maths teacher, nobody else. Irish or what?

    It depends on the science teacher's background to be fair. It might not be as troublesome as other combinations (where say geography teachers are teaching first year maths etc.). For example, it would make sense for a suitably qualified physics teacher to be teaching mathematics and certainly applied mathematics.

    Obviously while the preference would be for people who hold degrees in "pure" maths, physics degrees and masters are very maths intensive and more than give you a handle of the material required, and ensure that those of us from a physics background are generally aptly qualified to teach mathematics as well (though I'm not a teacher by profession I should add.) So I wouldn't paint it too black and white.

    At the moment however, the situation is you don't even get science teachers teaching maths, but technology and engineering teachers, and sometimes even P.E and geography teachers. Fair play if someone can kick a ball and do a sum, but chances are if you're a P.E teacher you probably don't have a background in a maths intensive course. You need people who have been immersed in that mathematical world, who are passionate about it, not people who have dabbled in it to the standard sufficient to scrape a class across the pass line.


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    #17
    Alopex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 632 ✭✭✭Alopex


    BluntGuy wrote: »
    It depends on the science teacher's background to be fair. It might not be as troublesome as other combinations (where say geography teachers are teaching first year maths etc.). For example, it would make sense for a suitably qualified physics teacher to be teaching mathematics and certainly applied mathematics.

    Obviously while the preference would be for people who hold degrees in "pure" maths, physics degrees and masters are very maths intensive and more than give you a handle of the material required, and ensure that those of us from a physics background are generally aptly qualified to teach mathematics as well (though I'm not a teacher by profession I should add.) So I wouldn't paint it too black and white.

    At the moment however, the situation is you don't even get science teachers teaching maths, but technology and engineering teachers, and sometimes even P.E and geography teachers. Fair play if someone can kick a ball and do a sum, but chances are if you're a P.E teacher you probably don't have a background in a maths intensive course. You need people who have been immersed in that mathematical world, who are passionate about it, not people who have dabbled in it to the standard sufficient to scrape a class across the pass line.

    I reckon the average science teacher is capable to teach first years and maybe 2nd year ordinary level. Any more complex than that you should have a maths degree or its not fair on the kids


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    #18
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    Alopex wrote: »
    I reckon the average science teacher is capable to teach first years and maybe 2nd year ordinary level. Any more complex than that you should have a maths degree or its not fair on the kids

    Depends on the Science degree. When I did Physics at college I was in with the Maths students doing courses with them along with all my lectures in physics being taught through mathematics pretty much. Someone with a physics degree from a good college is more than capable of teaching maths.

    Now if I did Biology in college I'd have seen hardly any maths at all beyond some introductory third level stuff.


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    #19
    #15
    Registered Users Posts: 2,784 ✭✭✭#15


    ASTI, what are they doing?
    Finally, there is a minister who, although sometimes misguided, seems committed to education reform and improving education practice and the ASTI react with defiance to pretty reasonable measures.


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    #20
    meglome
    Registered Users Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    You may not be aware, I certainly wasn't until I worked in the area, Teachers get continuing further training. Which is great. There's a big push on for example over the last years to have better training in technical subjects, woodwork, metalwork, tech drawing etc and maths too. However what really surprised me was teachers are not obliged to go to the training. The training up until recently was held during school hours and still many never went.

    The rough figures are about 20% will not go to any training and about 25% of people who are invited and agree to go don't turn up. Now there will be good reasons for some of these figures but my impression of the majority is they just don't bother.


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    #21
    #15
    Registered Users Posts: 2,784 ✭✭✭#15


    meglome wrote: »
    However what really surprised me was teachers are not obliged to go to the training. The training up until recently was held during school hours and still many never went.

    The rough figures are about 20% will not go to any training and about 25% of people who are invited and agree to go don't turn up. Now there will be good reasons for some of these figures but my impression of the majority is they just don't bother.

    I presume you are talking about secondary teachers?

    I know that most primary teachers take professional development courses during the summer - there aren't any courses available during term time (except evening courses).

    The whole area of teacher education is a hot topic at the minute, and reform is underway at the minute. A good thing IMO.


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    #22
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    #15 wrote: »
    I presume you are talking about secondary teachers?

    I know that most primary teachers take professional development courses during the summer - there aren't any courses available during term time (except evening courses).

    The whole area of teacher education is a hot topic at the minute, and reform is underway at the minute. A good thing IMO.

    I've heard on the grapevine that there's been a huge upsurge in the number of primary teachers doing courses on Irish since they brought in the inspecting. Irish might not be the choice of many but anything that encourages teachers to improve their ability to teach is to be strongly welcomed.


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    #23
    #15
    Registered Users Posts: 2,784 ✭✭✭#15


    nesf wrote: »
    I've heard on the grapevine that there's been a huge upsurge in the number of primary teachers doing courses on Irish since they brought in the inspecting.

    Incidental inspections have been ongoing for years though. Hislop has just placed more emphasis on them recently instead of the WSE process. I would attribute any rise in Irish professional development courses to the changes in the curriculum and the methodologies over the last decade.
    Any teacher trained prior to the introduction of the revised curriculum may have needed to take some courses.

    I don't think either of us can say for definite either way:), but I would think that was a more likely cause of any uptake in Irish professional development courses.


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    #24
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    #15 wrote: »
    Incidental inspections have been ongoing for years though. Hislop has just placed more emphasis on them recently instead of the WSE process. I would attribute any rise in Irish professional development courses to the changes in the curriculum and the methodologies over the last decade.
    Any teacher trained prior to the introduction of the revised curriculum may have needed to take some courses.

    I don't think either of us can say for definite either way:), but I would think that was a more likely cause of any uptake in Irish professional development courses.

    It was conversational Irish courses. Which would be curriculum neutral.


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    #25
    byhookorbycrook
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,482 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    Personally I love to see the inspector arriving, someone to ask what to do about x, what exactly does the DES expect, what about resources for y. hence, they don't tend to linger too long.


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    #26
    vamos!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 525 ✭✭✭vamos!


    We need to work on behaviour and accountability of some students before CAwould work. When we have the chronic troublemakers backed up by parents we could hardly count in class tests towards the LC as they would be absent or causing hassle at the time. For the JC and LC they may be in a separate centre. We really shouldnt be following the UKs example as their education system is descending into a shambles.


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    #27
    flutered
    Registered Users Posts: 6,672 ✭✭✭flutered


    i am just waiting for the numbers to be announced of the teachers retireing shortly to take advantage of the luxurious golden hand shake, roughly 100k tax free plus 3k a month of a pension, do they really need a excuse to retire, or can they up and collect.


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    #28
    headmaster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 687 ✭✭✭headmaster


    This maths thing need not be a problem at all, it's just that we have a lot of thick, lazy, students, not bad teachers. Lot's of the guys and gals who fail maths, have no problem at all in getting their heads around the amount they should be getting from the social welfare.


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    #29
    p1akuw47h5r3it
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,001 ✭✭✭p1akuw47h5r3it


    headmaster wrote: »
    This maths thing need not be a problem at all, it's just that we have a lot of thick, lazy, students, not bad teachers. Lot's of the guys and gals who fail maths, have no problem at all in getting their heads around the amount they should be getting from the social welfare.

    Ye it's all the students' fault well done.:pac:

    Obviously some students are lazy but not to such an extent that 4,367 students have failed Maths. Having recently left school I can say that some maths teachers are simple awful (I was lucky in that mine was brilliant). Something has to be done and this seems like a good start.


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    #30
    Mr.Micro
    Registered Users Posts: 5,336 ✭✭✭Mr.Micro


    The whole secondary teaching set up needs a vast overhaul IMO. 3 months summer holidays and even more extra days during each term. 2 weeks at Christmas and Easter and many schools have a half day on a Friday. No league tables, no real competency tests to see if teachers or schools are hitting the target. No publication of inspections, if there are any. The Dept of education here in Ireland has a lot to answer for.


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    #31
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    headmaster wrote: »
    This maths thing need not be a problem at all, it's just that we have a lot of thick, lazy, students, not bad teachers. Lot's of the guys and gals who fail maths, have no problem at all in getting their heads around the amount they should be getting from the social welfare.

    The thick lazy students fail stuff across the board. Maths having a much, much higher rate of failure and a much lower rate of people taking Honours, indicates a serious problem with the way the subject is taught at both Primary and Secondary.


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