Teachers to oppose Quinn's education reforms

headmaster

Has anyone checked out what %age of students fail maths in other european countries? Somehow, i think the percentages would be very similar. As for the comment, "blame students for everything", well, yes. Totallt spoilt and for themselves all the time. All the young people interviewed over the past few days, not one of them thanked their parents, wondered how their mums/dads might get the money to put them through Uni/college, oh no, it was just i'm going to do business, commerce, medicine or whatever. Well guys, welcome to the real world, lost the tears and attitude, do some work, stop whingeing and get your act together. Time now to stop the me this, me that, i want, i need, i'm entitled to this or that. Know something, you're entitled to zilch. Your 18, bye bye bank of mum and dad.

Mr.Micro

BluntGuy wrote: »

It depends on the science teacher's background to be fair. It might not be as troublesome as other combinations (where say geography teachers are teaching first year maths etc.). For example, it would make sense for a suitably qualified physics teacher to be teaching mathematics and certainly applied mathematics.

Obviously while the preference would be for people who hold degrees in "pure" maths, physics degrees and masters are very maths intensive and more than give you a handle of the material required, and ensure that those of us from a physics background are generally aptly qualified to teach mathematics as well (though I'm not a teacher by profession I should add.) So I wouldn't paint it too black and white.

At the moment however, the situation is you don't even get science teachers teaching maths, but technology and engineering teachers, and sometimes even P.E and geography teachers. Fair play if someone can kick a ball and do a sum, but chances are if you're a P.E teacher you probably don't have a background in a maths intensive course. You need people who have been immersed in that mathematical world, who are passionate about it, not people who have dabbled in it to the standard sufficient to scrape a class across the pass line.

The bottom line is there is nobody better than a good maths teacher to each maths. My background is science and I would not want or expect a maths teacher teaching science. The current sham is clearly not working. Is there shortage of maths teachers or have maths been considered as junk status for some time?

headmaster

Charlie McCreavy was an accountant, qualified as well, taught us pretty well, didn't he? If you are thick, you're thick, end of. That's our problem in this country, we don't like the truth, either telling it, or hearing it.

ILikeBananas

I find it very hard to believe that any Irish government will seriously try and shake things up in teaching given that so many TDs come from teaching backgrounds themselves.

thebman

headmaster wrote: »

Has anyone checked out what %age of students fail maths in other european countries? Somehow, i think the percentages would be very similar. As for the comment, "blame students for everything", well, yes. Totallt spoilt and for themselves all the time. All the young people interviewed over the past few days, not one of them thanked their parents, wondered how their mums/dads might get the money to put them through Uni/college, oh no, it was just i'm going to do business, commerce, medicine or whatever. Well guys, welcome to the real world, lost the tears and attitude, do some work, stop whingeing and get your act together. Time now to stop the me this, me that, i want, i need, i'm entitled to this or that. Know something, you're entitled to zilch. Your 18, bye bye bank of mum and dad.

Don't think they were asked for their life story when being interviewed for about a minute long, probably heavily cut/edited news piece :rolleyes:

It is the multinationals and other employers that are complaining about the standard of student coming out of our educational system. Even some Irish companies can't find people with the relevant education for roles.

meglome

#15 wrote: »

I presume you are talking about secondary teachers?

I know that most primary teachers take professional development courses during the summer - there aren't any courses available during term time (except evening courses).

The whole area of teacher education is a hot topic at the minute, and reform is underway at the minute. A good thing IMO.

Yeah I was talking about secondary teachers. It still shocks me that 20% of these teachers just won't go to any further training and 25% won't bother to show up even when they agree to go. What kind of job it is okay not to bother to turn up for prearranged training.


I had a very good maths teacher in secondary school and I have no doubt this was reflected in the results we got. The same way I have no doubt the awful French teacher we had was reflected in the opposite way. There are bad students out there but a bad teacher reflects on all their students.

#15

nesf wrote: »

It was conversational Irish courses. Which would be curriculum neutral.

Not necessarily. Conversation and communication are a major part of the revised curriculum. There has been a shift in emphasis to the communicative approach. I suppose such courses are curriculum neutral in terms of content, but they are important in terms of implementing the curriculum (despite not having an explicit methodological focus).

Permabear

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board_stiff

Permabear wrote: »

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What? This is shocking!

When Ruairi Quinn initially came out with his secondary education reforms plan my initial reaction was that he shouldn't be focusing on secondary education he should be looking at primary education. If you don't leave primary education with the foundations in maths then no amount of reforms at secondary education are going to make a difference.

byhookorbycrook

Mr.Micro wrote: »

The whole secondary teaching set up needs a vast overhaul IMO. 3 months summer holidays and even more extra days during each term. 2 weeks at Christmas and Easter and many schools have a half day on a Friday. No league tables, no real competency tests to see if teachers or schools are hitting the target. No publication of inspections, if there are any. The Dept of education here in Ireland has a lot to answer for.

errr....have you checked all the reports on the DES site or do you just want to spout inaccurate rubbish???

ligertigon

Have a read of Malcom Gladwell's take on maths, especially why asians are better. Its because they try a lot harder, spend more time on it and perservere. Our culture at the moment doesn't do this.
Its always the teachers fault... its the banks fault for lending... its the other drivers fault......... its the previous governments fault.... rarely any ownership of self blame.

If all maths teachers were degree/masters educated, I would expect similar student grades, only difference being the media saying that the teachers are too detached from the simple stuff because of their high level of education!

The college mentioned earlier is fee paying, and intake is simply from a certain socio economic group, under pressure from paying parents to put away their xbox and study. Send inner city kids with baggage to that school and see how well they do with a "good" teacher.

goose2005

We need to fire bad teachers. It's simply astounding that there exists a job where you cannot be fired for bad performance.

digme

Less rote learning and more critical thinking.

Manach

Less critical thinking and more rote learning.
At least that was the conclusion of a recent book I read, "Moon walking with Einstein", about the benefits of memorisation. The premise is that learning to remember is a key step in furnishing the mental tools so as that critical thinking can then develop.

vellocet

I haven't read the whole thread, but is Permabear supporting a socialist minister taking on the teachers unions?

Alopex

vellocet wrote: »

I haven't read the whole thread, but is Permabear supporting a socialist minister taking on the teachers unions?

labour are about as socialist as gregory campbell

Permabear

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Byron85

Permabear wrote: »

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"Your powers are weak old man".

"Yes Darth, but i've got the backing of the INTO and TUI".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWaLxFIVX1s


A friend of mine pointed out the flaws with the PISA results but then again, she is a teacher herself. What's the general consensus here when it comes to its results?

jonsnow

Byron85 wrote: »

"Your powers are weak old man".

"Yes Darth, but i've got the backing of the INTO and TUI".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWaLxFIVX1s


A friend of mine pointed out the flaws with the PISA results but then again, she is a teacher herself. What's the general consensus here when it comes to its results?

Teachers are all pointing out the flaws in the PISA results now.A few years ago they were using Irelands high ranking in Literacy to pat themselves on the back and justify more wage hikes.

CatFromHue

Permabear wrote: »

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My degree was Aeronautical Eng in UL. We have a group on LinkedIn and some of the members wanted to become secondary school teachers and set up a discussion on LinkedIn about it. One member was told though that they would need to go back and do a pure Mathetmatics honours degree and that there was not enough maths or physics content in Aero to be recognised. Another was told that they should: 1) do a post graduate degree in mathematics in Maynooth NUI, and then 2) do the postgraduate diploma in maths teaching in UL. It works out around 3 years full time extra study. This was about 5 months ago.

A conversion course between a degree in Eng and Maths teaching would be very beneficial.

Permabear

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#15

Permabear wrote: »

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Anyone using one set of assessments in such an exaggerated manner is being a bit silly.
That goes for unions who use it as a basis for higher pay, and for others, like you, who suddenly decide that nothing is more important than it (as long as the results fit your worldview).

They are important, no doubt. And they can be of great help to reformers and policymakers.

But such simplistic use of the results add nothing to the debate. Even the Finns, who perform so well on the tests, don't place such an emphasis on test scores. But no, never mind Finnish educational reformers like Pasi Sahlberg, the intelligensia on boards.ie knows how to use these international results in the most appropriate manner.

Matt Holck

but merely of saving their members from having to do extra work and shielding them from justifiable criticism.

I don't want the teachers doing extra work
they're job is to teach
turns out, there's not enough work to keep people employed as it stands

COYW

CatFromHue wrote: »

One member was told though that they would need to go back and do a pure Mathetmatics honours degree and that there was not enough maths or physics content in Aero to be recognised.

I myself completed an honours degree in a national university in pure Mathematics. Neither I nor any of my classmates have moved into secondary school teaching as a career.

Permabear

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Matt Holck

we could use more civics courses

unannounced inspection sounds like useful tool for vilifying undesirables

rumour

Permabear wrote: »

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While I agree reform is necessary I cannot see the benefit of administering more continious assessment of students. I believe that is the proposal I read a few days ago.

This, being Ireland, will lend the whole teaching population subject to pressure from the local community or parents, i'd hazard a guess that it will become similar to phoning your local TD to get things sorted. No matter what the intellectual ability of the child. Everything in Ireland points to this being the case.
Anyway what's wrong with exams, that is life, we all face crucial moments in our life where major issues are decided. It is how we perform on these occasions that define what becomes of our lives. To extract that from children's education is to ill prepare them.

Now that doesn't mean we should protect teachers from scrutiny. It is all but apparent now that the Irish leaving Certificate is little measure of kids abilities. I read about a year or two ago that some employers consider success in on-line strategic games such as 'eve' as considerable advantages in interviews, demonstrating far more of a persons capabilities than their formal state controlled education.

The teaching profession may well want to take heed of these developments as they are already behind the curve deliverying an increasing amount of illiterate kids.

The best standard education available currently and recognised around the world is the international baccalaureate. That is the standard we should aspire to. And of course I don't think our guys should be the best paid teachers in the western world for the shortest term while failing to manage illiteracy and having no real management strategy to deliver a decent mathematics education.

Seems to me it is more important not to upset teachers than make sure or kids are educated for life's challenges to the highest standard. It used to be the case but not now.

I see the croke park agreement as a wider debate, relevant, but still part of a wider debate. Reform of education should be to make sure our kids get a better education and not be driven by the necessity to have cuts. For those who argue that more money will solve the problem this is not true. We have had nearly twenty years of increased spending in every area that is only making things worse. So that is not the problem. Rather mathematical really. Of course that may be hard for many to comprehend.

#15

Permabear wrote: »

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Quinn's reforms are ok. They are not that meaningful. They are a step in the right direction, but don't go half far enough.

Honestly, it would be easier to take you at face value that your zeal for reform is genuine if every education-related post of yours wasn't littered with pot shots at teachers. And completely without context too.
It would also help if you didn't just rephrase a few statistics and actually put forth a few ideas for reform.

Anyway, I am willing to put this discussion back on track.

Ireland should be benchmarking the high-performance systems in all areas.

- They should pay particular attention to countries that have similar profiles.
- They need to have a consensus on the goals of the education system and the goals of reform
- Benchmark teaching entry with the highest performing nations. Primary teaching has relatively average matriculation requirements, but in reality the entry standards are fairly high. Secondary teaching seems to be a good bit lower. In both cases, it's not enough. Finland and Singapore recruit only from the top 20% and 30% of school leavers, respectively.
- Move teacher education into universities, as Finland and others have done.
- Make sure that teachers have degrees in the subjects that they teach
- Reform teacher education so that it based on a clinical model
- Longer induction periods for newly qualified teachers, under the supervision of other teachers who are equipped with the skills necessary to mentor them
- Provide pathways for advancement within the profession - in Singapore, there are clearly defined tracks for capable teachers to follow. This allows them to use their expertise to improve the system. The three tracks are 'teaching track', 'leadership track' and 'specialist track'. There are multiple levels within each track.
- These pathways to be merit-based
- Class sizes: if Ireland is to continue with relatively high class sizes, then it needs to modify the curriculum to reflect that. Currently it operates with a curriculum designed for small classes. And the results are predictable (falling test scores, etc.). It is possible to operate with higher class sizes if the curriculum and methodologies are adpated to suit. Japan is a good example of a country which has done this. Reducing class size is probably the most expensive and least effective ways of improving student performance. So adapting the curriculum and methodology is a good alternative. The current curriculum is unaligned with class sizes and appropriate methods of instruction. It's not a major surprise that the first cohort of the 1999 curriculum are the ones to score poorly in PISA's literacy and numeracy tests. Not the science scores - they recieve little publicity, but they were above average.
- Funding: the more disadvantaged students a school has, the greater the funding it receives.
- Teaching to be fully reformed as a profession, in all areas. Finland has managed to do this and as a result was able to abolish the inspectorate. This is a decades long process, and can only be done when there are enough high-quality teachers in the system.
- A greater emphasis on teaching as a collaborative effort in schools.
- More autonomy for schools in deciding how to spend their funding.

Ireland already has some of these elements in place, and not others. As I said, it will take years to achieve.
Finland started their reforms in the 70s.

There is a talk here from Pasi Sahlberg, the reformer I mentioned earlier. It is worth a look.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tR9_zy2FVS8

There is also the wider problem of social inequality, and if that remains unaddressed, then most education reform will be for small gains. They are major contributors, possibly the largest, to educational outcomes.

Kinski

Amidst all this talk of Leaving Cert reform, one thing I never hear suggested - but which I think makes a lot of sense - is the idea of weighting the points awarded for particular subjects when they are calculated in relation to relevant third level courses. What I mean by that is that, for example, a school-leaver applying for medicine in TCD should recieve more points for attaining an A1 in honours biology than she would for the same grade in honours Irish.*

It would make the points system a good deal more complicated, but it would give recognition to candidates who have displayed an aptitude for subjects relevant to the course they propose to undertake in college. As it stands, it's conceivable that a student with an A in maths could lose out on their preferred maths course to someone who has a lesser grade in that subject, but better results in French and English.

*Sorry if this example irritates any gaelgoirs who think they should be able to access all medical services as gaeilge!

edanto

I read this thread a few days ago and was a bit shocked to hear that the ASTI were going to oppose these Quinn reforms.

I took it up with them by email, and swapped a few notes with their president. He was of the opinion that they would oppose anything that changed the role of the teacher from 'advocate' to 'judge'.

But he was in agreement that while the Leaving Cert scores highly on impartiality, it scores very lowly on rote learning, and student stress.

I think I might have got him thinking about a concept of 'acceptable impartiality', a way of measuring up a continuous assessment system to see if it is an improvement on the current Leaving Cert while maintaining a level of impartiality suitable for our parochial culture.

If anyone else feels like letting the ASTI know what you think, their email is on the website. (obviously they'll listen to their members more than internet strangers, but sure what harm can it do?)