London and UK riots (started in Tottenham 10:30PM, 6th Aug)

Happyman42 · 12-08-2011 06:33PM

jmayo wrote: »

Yes social welfare has been badly distributed and as in this country fraud is often rife.
How we could up social welfare rates to the long term unemployed during our boom years, all the while we had to import workers is another thing that highlights how bad the system really is, would you not agree ?

So you agree, the system has failed those it was meant to help

jmayo wrote: »

And socialism or far left communism is usually only attractive to those that want other people property and money, would you not agree ?

Cheap shot. No I wouldn't agree and I am no proponent of either of those philosophies.

jmayo wrote: »

Just because bankers and other assorted well heeled shysters, like certain politicans, get away with skimming or dodgy deals does not mean that someone should go down and destroy the local shopping centre where ordinary decent hardworking people have built businesses.

It certainly doesn't endorse their behaviour but I can certainly understand why somebody would stop caring what the establishment thought.

jmayo wrote: »

I shared with a girl from one of the worse addresses possible in Limerick, actually probably in Ireland.
She had managed to get and hold down a job in Dell.
She admitted most of her school friends had gotten pregnant, some more than once, and were on housing lists drawing the dole.
I also worked with people from other areas of Limerick that would not be considered the best addresses.
How come they were able to do it ?
Were the odds so stacked against them that they could not go out there and get jobs and build better lives ?

So less of the usual tripe excuses.

So one or two swallows make a summer? :rolleyes:

If you can ignore the fact that where you are from is one of the greatest inhibitors to getting a job, when you are aiming your culling rifle then you have no place in a reasoned debate on the subject. Good luck to you.

steve9859 · 12-08-2011 06:44PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

[:

If you can ignore the fact that where you are from is one of the greatest inhibitors to getting a job, when you are aiming your culling rifle then you have no place in a reasoned debate on the subject. Good luck to you.

Equally, no matter where you are from it is in the hands of you and your family how you're to behave and how you want to engage with education and society in general. A failure to recognize that absolves these people of all personal responsibility.

Monty Burnz · 12-08-2011 06:56PM

steve9859 wrote: »

Equally, no matter where you are from it is in the hands of you and your family how you're to behave and how you want to engage with education and society in general. A failure to recognize that absolves these people of all personal responsibility.

You forget Steve - we don't have personal responsibility at all, or free will. We are purely the determined outputs of our environments - nothing we do or believe is our fault.

Now excuse me while I go and abuse some children; it isn't my fault, I'm a victim here too... :rolleyes:

Happyman42 · 12-08-2011 07:20PM

steve9859 wrote: »

Equally, no matter where you are from it is in the hands of you and your family how you're to behave and how you want to engage with education and society in general. A failure to recognize that absolves these people of all personal responsibility.

What absolute nonsense.
For starters what you say flies in the face of what those tasked with delivering education say.
There has to be a perceivable dividend to be gained from education. Irish children where kept at home to work the farm for decades. Why? because a second level education was seen as unnecessary,
There has to be an incentive...like jobs, like social inclusion and all that entails. They are patently not available, except in rare cases, so you enter the vicious downward spiral. Personal responsibility becomes a losing fight for personal dignity.
You can see those who have lost the fight on any walk around the cities of our 'civilised' western civilisation.

Monty Burnz · 12-08-2011 07:26PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

There has to be an incentive...like jobs, like social inclusion and all that entails. They are patently not available

Please explain why over 700,000 eastern Europeans moved to the UK to work in these 'unavailable' jobs between 2006 and 2010. Then tell us why British people didn't take these jobs.

steve9859 · 12-08-2011 07:45PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

What absolute nonsense.
For starters what you say flies in the face of what those tasked with delivering education say.
There has to be a perceivable dividend to be gained from education. Irish children where kept at home to work the farm for decades. Why? because a second level education was seen as unnecessary,
There has to be an incentive...like jobs, like social inclusion and all that entails. They are patently not available, except in rare cases, so you enter the vicious downward spiral. Personal responsibility becomes a losing fight for personal dignity.
You can see those who have lost the fight on any walk around the cities of our 'civilised' western civilisation.

And it is the fact that three generations in some of these areas have been able to live without having to work makes it appear that there is no point to an education. The appearance that you get given enough to live, and you can nick the luxuries. That is the fault of the welfare system over decades, and more incentives need to be built in.

Other than that I fundamentally disagree with your apologist views. School, technical college, apprenticeship is available should one choose. It is in one's hands, irrespective of their background. But if parents are not there, or don't care, then what hope does a kid have. there needs to be more incentive to make people go through that process - including punishment if one does not engage. The carrot hasn't worked. Time to try the stick

In true 'Dragons Den' style, may I say "I'm out". These arguments have gone round in circles for a couple of thousand posts now. Think everyone knows my views

Happyman42 · 12-08-2011 07:47PM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Please explain why over 700,000 eastern Europeans moved to the UK to work in these 'unavailable' jobs between 2006 and 2010. Then tell us why British people didn't take these jobs.

I have already said that part of the reason is the corrosiveness of living in certain environments. People give up, it's as simple and stark as that. Then you get that negativity passed down to the next generation and things stagnate a little more and on and on the spiral goes.
I am on a UK based forum connected with my work and I could show you hundreds of posts by employers saying that they wouldn't employ somebody off the dole for various reasons but most of them have their roots in the stagnation I mention above.
Similar thing happened here when the boom came, but add in the fact that the Eastern European was prepared to work for a lot less and you can reach those figures easily. It is not rocket science, it's a given of economics really.

Mint Sauce · 12-08-2011 07:55PM

Hopefully they will pick up a few more

1,600 held, 796 in court over riots

Monty Burnz · 12-08-2011 07:56PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

I have already said that part of the reason is the corrosiveness of living in certain environments. People give up, it's as simple and stark as that. Then you get that negativity passed down to the next generation and things stagnate a little more and on and on the spiral goes.
I am on a UK based forum connected with my work and I could show you hundreds of posts by employers saying that they wouldn't employ somebody off the dole for various reasons but most of them have their roots in the stagnation I mention above.
Similar thing happened here when the boom came, but add in the fact that the Eastern European was prepared to work for a lot less and you can reach those figures easily. It is not rocket science, it's a given of economics really.

So you admit that the jobs were available, and the people there did not want them?

Happyman42 · 12-08-2011 08:07PM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

So you admit that the jobs were available, and the people there did not want them?

Some jobs were available, unquestionably there where those who didn't want them.
But a lot of those jobs could not have been done by an unskilled base. Like plasterers, brickies, chippies etc.

Liam Byrne · 12-08-2011 08:10PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

It certainly doesn't endorse their behaviour but I can certainly understand why somebody would stop caring what the establishment thought.

How about caring what SOCIETY thinks ?

Not ONE of the rioters attacked "the establishment"; they attacked ordinary members of society.

And the problem is that people should care what they think of themselves, or what disgrace they're bringing on their families, or what the neighbours would think - there's any number of levels before you reach "the establishment".

I don't care what a politician thinks of me, because they're happy to maintain the status quo.....I do, however, care whether I treat decent people decently.

And therein lies the difference between me and them.

Liam Byrne · 12-08-2011 08:11PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

Some jobs were available, unquestionably there where those who didn't want them.
But a lot of those jobs could not have been done by an unskilled base. Like plasterers, brickies, chippies etc.

And none of the people who needed jobs bothered to get training in order to take those jobs ? They were happy to milk the dole and not get themselves into a position whereby they could get the jobs ?

Happyman42 · 12-08-2011 08:18PM

Liam Byrne wrote: »

And none of the people who needed jobs bothered to get training in order to take those jobs ? They were happy to milk the dole and not get themselves into a position whereby they could get the jobs ?

:rolleyes::rolleyes: You forgot to sign that.

'Outraged and disgusted,
Limerick'

Hindsight is a wonderful thing Liam, even amongst the educated. Have you ever witnessed a community in a downward spiral....do you believe they exist?

Wertz · 12-08-2011 08:23PM

Very good edition of young viewers Question Time on BBC3 tonight discussing the riots...thought there was gonna be another riot in the studio. Repeated later tonight for anyone that's bothered...
Didn't really resolve anything but certainly got to the root of more things than most of the debates I've seen all week...

Liam Byrne · 12-08-2011 08:25PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

Hindsight is a wonderful thing Liam, even amongst the educated. Have you ever witnessed a community in a downward spiral....do you believe they exist?

Absolutely ridiculous and pointless post.

What does hindsight have to do with anything ? Did they just assume that they'd get a job without any training or education of any sort whatsoever ?

That's the way the real world works when you're not getting handouts from the state.

No hindsight involved in that whatsoever.

So save the rolleyes for when they're appropriate, please.

Re the "outraged and disgusted".....well, in terms of the unwarranted and unjustified destruction that's the subject of this thread - you're damn right; I have no idea why people choose to do stuff like that, and any right-thinking person would be outraged and disgusted.

Your posts are full of smart-ass comments and dismissive rubbish, but nothing of substance to support your claims that the blame for thugs' choices lays at their own doorstep.....oh look : they have a doorstep too - something genuine people who are genuinely destitute do not have.

Happyman42 · 12-08-2011 08:26PM

Liam Byrne wrote: »

How about caring what SOCIETY thinks ?

That's what people are trying to tell you!!!! THEY NO LONGER CARE!
The question is what is SOCIETY gonna do about that? Shoot them all? Will we be going around estates putting crosses above doors?

To come up with a solution you first have to understand what the problem is.

Liam Byrne · 12-08-2011 08:29PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

That's what people are trying to tell you!!!! THEY NO LONGER CARE!
The question is what is SOCIETY gonna do about that? Shoot them all? Will we be going around estates putting crosses above doors?

To come up with a solution you first have to understand what the problem is.

Well if the problem is that THEY NO LONGER CARE, then they have 3 choices :

1) Start to care
2) Opt-out and accept the fact that they won't get free money
3) Act the complete thug and accept the consequences

They are not entitled to destroy the property of decent people, or attack them in the streets. They're also not entitled to welfare if they refuse to be part of decent society......if us trying to be decent to them involves paying them for being worse than useless, then they can damn well be decent to us in return, or else we stop being decent to them.

It's THEIR choice, THEIR problem - not ours.

Ulysses Gaze · 12-08-2011 08:38PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

That's what people are trying to tell you!!!! THEY NO LONGER CARE!
The question is what is SOCIETY gonna do about that? Shoot them all? Will we be going around estates putting crosses above doors?

To come up with a solution you first have to understand what the problem is.

What do you suggest?

In terms of Education beyond the classroom there are options for these kids that lead to jobs.

Apprenticeship schemes in the UK are funded by the Government. This includes Skills for Life - basic reading, writing and mathematics. You get paid to do these schemes and the Conservatives have created 60,000 new places in the last year alone.

The UK Government fund hundreds of thousands of NVQs, Apprenticeships and Advanced Apprenticeships a year. They spend upwards of £7 billion on these skills programmes a year.

The opportunities are there for people to get funded on these schemes - but you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink it.

I worked in an organisation that ran these skills programmes and met some of the people involved in them in London. Kids know the options are there, whether they choose to take them is down to them. You will get a certain % of those from 'bad' neighbourhoods that actively engage with these options. You will always have people who will not though. You can give them options, opportunities, free funding - but unless you actually find a way of coercing them to take the opportunities, they will not.

And even if they are 'coerced' who's to say they will actively seek out work afterwards?

Happyman42 · 12-08-2011 08:39PM

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Absolutely ridiculous and pointless post.

Alright, lets try it another way, do you believe a community can get caught in an upward spiral and spin out of control, despite their better judgements and education? Remind you of anything? Of course you want to burn all those that got carried away on the back of the Celtic Tiger too, but accepting that it happened is all I require.

What I'm getting at is how, in a community context, certain behaviours can become the norm and no outside opprobrium or any amount of interference will change it. It has to be a root and branch change.
But that is not gonna happen here, the lid will be put back on the pressure cooker with extra bitterness added. People will die when it blows again.

LighterGuy · 12-08-2011 08:45PM

What soceity thinks?

Its soceity thats doing this. Lets look at the different angles...
Its the scum rioting and attacking other people. Its seemingly the "normal people" also looting with the scum. Its other normal people saying "the riots are terrible" (same types of people)

Its people. All walks of life. Hyprocrissy, human nature and opportunity are the best words to descripe this.

Sure if there was a riot on o'connell street tomorrow. You'd see all walks of life looting shops. Same people posting in this thread. As for the scum? they'll always be scum.

Ulysses Gaze · 12-08-2011 08:47PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

Alright, lets try it another way, do you believe a community can get caught in an upward spiral and spin out of control, despite their better judgements and education? Remind you of anything? Of course you want to burn all those that got carried away on the back of the Celtic Tiger too, but accepting that it happened is all I require.

What I'm getting at is how, in a community context, certain behaviours can become the norm and no outside opprobrium or any amount of interference will change it. It has to be a root and branch change.
But that is not gonna happen here, the lid will be put back on the pressure cooker with extra bitterness added. People will die when it blows again.

But surely that change has to come from within the communities themselves?

And even if internally the community tries to change the behaviours within itself, you have to accept that you may not change all the behaviours of all individuals within that community. You may still wind up with 5% - 10% - 15% not engaging with the 'new' norms and still preferring the old, easier to them, life.

Happyman42 · 12-08-2011 08:56PM

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

But surely that change has to come from within the communities themselves?

To an extent yes, there are people rowing against the tide trying, but they need help, resources and above all moral support from everyone with a vested interest....which is (based on this week) EVERYONE OF US.

Instead of taking aim with the blunderbuss you have to ask why? Why did this happen now.....and my answer to that is the Tories, cut after cut after cut. Aimed as usual at the defenceless and voiceless. Well, their voices got heard.....unfortunately and tragically for some.

K-9 · 12-08-2011 08:59PM

jmayo wrote: »

Maybe you might term me right wing, but the police is the last thing I would cut.
Actually prison spaces are another and I think we are sadly going down that road here.

Never mentioned right wing, just the Tories policies. Makes no sense to me to make people probably homeless as some are suggesting and cut law and order at the same time, which is the reality.

hmmm · 12-08-2011 08:59PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

Why did this happen now.....and my answer to that is the Tories, cut after cut after cut. Aimed as usual at the defenceless and voiceless. Well, their voices got heard.....unfortunately and tragically for some.

Sadly the underlying truth is less prosaic. It happened now because the Tories asked for stronger policing of drug gangs in London, which led to the death of one person in particular. As a response, these drug gangs co-ordinated the unrest, and were joined by idiot passer-bys who decided to get involved in looting. The drug gangs have made their point and withdrawn their foot soldiers (who masked their identity, only the patsies looted with their faces identifiable), you'll see less active policing of gang activity going forward and the government can also claim they have dealt with the looters.

Liam Byrne · 12-08-2011 09:00PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

To an extent yes, there are people rowing against the tide trying, but they need help.....

Well sorry - their choice to act like scum means they're not getting mine.

Now, if they'd actually asked properly, like human beings, it might be a different story.

Although I still wouldn't be for them being so parasitic of having no intention of contributing to society, so if they wanted help with that they can piss off.

Ulysses Gaze · 12-08-2011 09:02PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

To an extent yes, there are people rowing against the tide trying, but they need help, resources and above all moral support from everyone with a vested interest....which is (based on this week) EVERYONE OF US.

Instead of taking aim with the blunderbuss you have to ask why? Why did this happen now.....and my answer to that is the Tories, cut after cut after cut. Aimed as usual at the defenceless and voiceless. Well, their voices got heard.....unfortunately and tragically for some.

Agreed.

But even if this is achieved we may have to accept that there will still be a minority that cannot be reached.

Happyman42 · 12-08-2011 09:06PM

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Well sorry - their choice to act like scum means they're not getting mine.

Now, if they'd actually asked properly, like human beings, it might be a different story.

Although I still wouldn't be for them being so parasitic of having no intention of contributing to society, so if they wanted help with that they can piss off.

That is unbelievably sad. To be so inhumane, I mean. Goes beyond the triteness of the normal internet warrior.

If all of the people I am talking about had taken to the streets Liam you would be looking at a wasteland. Thank your lucky stars it is contained ...for now.

Happyman42 · 12-08-2011 09:09PM

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

Agreed.

But even if this is achieved we may have to accept that there will still be a minority that cannot be reached.

Probably but that shouldn't stop them trying. Everyone wins.

Happyman42 · 12-08-2011 09:12PM

hmmm wrote: »

Sadly the underlying truth is less prosaic. It happened now because the Tories asked for stronger policing of drug gangs in London, which led to the death of one person in particular. As a response, these drug gangs co-ordinated the unrest, and were joined by idiot passer-bys who decided to get involved in looting. The drug gangs have made their point and withdrawn their foot soldiers (who masked their identity, only the patsies looted with their faces identifiable), you'll see less active policing of gang activity going forward and the government can also claim they have dealt with the looters.

That's interesting, any sources for that? Not disputing it, just interested.

The Tories were cutting too though and there is more to come, just like here.

Liam Byrne · 12-08-2011 09:15PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

That is unbelievably sad. To be so inhumane, I mean. Goes beyond the triteness of the normal internet warrior.

If all of the people I am talking about had taken to the streets Liam you would be looking at a wasteland. Thank your lucky stars it is contained ...for now.

I have no idea who you are talking about, or what the implicit threat in your "....for now" is about.

All I know is that if people who think arson and murder and looting is acceptable end up creating / taking over society, I won't want to be part of it.

I don't want to be part of the current setup either, mind you, before you start misrepresenting me.

As for being patronising and claiming that my views are "sad", well you've just earned yourself a re-ignore from this individual; you appear to be completely incapable of making a point without throwing in some patronising rubbish or smart-arse remark.

Then again, maybe I should be thankful that that's all you do to people you disagree with, unlike the people you are excusing who would have burned down boards by now.

Good luck with that dog-eat-dog society, where you won't even have a computer to type anything on because one of the dogs that you're excusing will have considered it their right to rob it, and would have burnt down your house - apparently with you standing in the garden nodding "I understand, my child, I understand".

London and UK riots (started in Tottenham 10:30PM, 6th Aug)

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