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London Riots

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  • #452
    Laminations
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    Monty Burnz wrote: »
    You are comparing a wealthy, vibrant democracy with a massively generous (over-generous?) welfare system with a military dictatorship. The people rioting and looting aren't protesting anything, they are having a laugh. They have no values. They are not an oppressed people trying win the right to vote.

    The comparison is ludicrous.

    +1
    Yeah man well ya know Hitler killed people so man if a guy breaks into your home and you kill him well man your as bad as Hitler man.

    Comparisons that strip the behaviour of all context are nonsensical.


  • #453
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,069 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    rarnes1 wrote: »
    I wonder will they use rubber bullets on the rioters or is that just reserved for the North ?

    Apparently the situation would have to deterioriate even more for the authorities to use water cannon & plastic bullets, ie If shooting starts then harsher measures would be taken. I also heard a senior Policeman talking about mistakes made in the past, namely alienating the population with heave handed tactics, ala rubber/plastic bullets in Northern Ireland.


  • #454
    Jelle1880
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,839 ✭✭✭Jelle1880


    Debthree wrote: »
    I'm really gobsmacked at how easily one of the biggest cities in the world has been overtaken by mobs. It's extraordinary and very very scary.

    Only one reason; Pussy-footing of the police forces.

    Imagine Paris, New York, Beijing,...
    Police would have a field day.

    edit:
    LordSutch, there were already reports of shootings.
    One man in Croydon was shot I believe.


  • #455
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,396 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    Agreed, at the moment they're running a "hearts & minds" campaign - digging in around protecting fire fighters who are trying to extinguish the flames and attempting to help innocent people as well as attempting to protect key areas.

    They will be on the defensive until a state of emergency is announced and a curfew is put in place. Only then (once they have massive public support) can they really get out and start an offensive tact.


  • #456
    Laminations
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    I think they'd have massive support now.

    Anyone who doesn't support hard action needs to listen to Trevor Reeves (owner of the large furniture store that was torched) interview or the old lady who woke to find looters in her bedroom.


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  • #457
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,396 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    Laminations wrote: »
    I think they'd have massive support now.

    Anyone who doesn't support hard action needs to listen to Trevor Reeves (owner of the large furniture store that was torched) interview or the old lady who woke to find looters in her bedroom.
    Oh I'd agree that by today they will have massive support. But they also need to put a curfew in place to keep the innocent people out of danger. Then the police can come in and take care of those who are out past curfew.


  • #458
    kravmaga
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,990 ✭✭✭kravmaga


    LordSutch wrote: »
    Time for the Police to take off the gloves and get stuck in, bring in the water cannon from NI and add in the threat of plactic bullet rounds. The police need to stop pussy footing and fight back on behalf of the public. Cameron should also introduce a carfew in London, Bristol, and wherever they deem it necessary. Too many people have suffered, and this must not be allowed to continue into a fourth night.

    PS; The Army as a last resort, and only to be used if shooting starts.

    Well COBRA had a meeting this morning in Westminister at 9am, CAMERON was supposed to be in attendance. Senior Commander from Met Police, British Transport Police and City of London Police and various other government advisors in attendance. They will decide what response and resources will be deployed by Metropolitian Police and other Police forces which are being drafted in from regional counties, i.e. Essex, Thames Valley, Kent, Hampshire Police.

    The Met. Police have already established Strategic Command Level( called Gold Control).

    The Strategic Level Commander is in overall charge of each service , responsible for formulating the policy for the Disorder/incident/s . Each Commander is in direct control of the resporces of their own service, but delegates tactical decisions to their respective Tactical Level Commanders.
    Each will consult with their opposite number in the other services; provide additional resources for the scene and exercise strategic direction from Headquarters operations centre (New Scotland Yard).

    All Police leave has been cancelled and there should be circa 13,0000 police Officers on duty tonight in London Metro Area.

    It will be interesting to see if the annual Notting Hill Carnival goes ahead this year, I very much doubt it imo.


  • #459
    Jelle1880
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,839 ✭✭✭Jelle1880


    They'd also need to take hard action before more people decide that they should do it themselves.


  • #460
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Monty Burnz wrote: »
    The galling thing is that these subhumans will be collecting their dole money from the taxpayers whose communities they are destroying, and turning up as customers in the businesses they looted.

    The reason we don't allow the use of the words "scum"/"scumbags" etc on the forum isn't because we have some weird down on the word. It's because the use of such tabloid terminology is emotive and mindless in itself.

    So the "blah blah thugs blah subhumans" et al? That's the same thing. If you can't operate above the tabloid level, there's no real value in your being in the debate. We already have tabloids.

    moderately,
    Scofflaw


  • #461
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,069 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Parliament to be recalled on Thursday :confused:

    Too bloody late Mr Cameron.


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  • #462
    RandolphEsq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,296 ✭✭✭RandolphEsq


    England friendly cancelled. Sh1t just got real.


  • #463
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    I don't understand why they have ruled out using the water cannons against these knaves. They don't hesitate to deploy it against varlets in Northern Ireland, and it's proven to be effective - perhaps they need to modify some standing order or some such to deploy them?

    If you get a large agglomeration of knaves in one location, they can be quickly dispersed without any serious risk of injuring the varlets.


  • #464
    Yahew
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,491 ✭✭✭Yahew


    RandolphEsq wrote: »
    England friendly cancelled. Sh1t just got real.

    I dont get that. During the match the rioters would be at home, or in pubs watching it. Are they expecting that the riots break out afterwards?


  • #465
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Monty Burnz wrote: »
    I don't understand why they have ruled out using the water cannons against these knaves. They don't hesitate to deploy it against varlets in Northern Ireland, and it's proven to be effective - perhaps they need to modify some standing order or some such to deploy them?

    If you get a large agglomeration of knaves in one location, they can be quickly dispersed without any serious risk of injuring the varlets.

    Just use the word "rioters", thanks. Everyone can see from that that you're not in favour of them.

    moderately irritated,
    Scofflaw


  • #466
    Yahew
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,491 ✭✭✭Yahew


    Of course nothing might happen tonight anyway. I have a feeling that last night was the apex. First day was regional, second it spread. Last night was as good as it was going to get for 'em as the police hadn't really organised. They might now just stay at home.


  • #467
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Yahew wrote: »
    I dont get that. During the match the rioters would be at home, or in pubs watching it. Are they expecting that the riots break out afterwards?

    Since they often get mini-riots after games, I would think so. The idea that one of these flash mobs could turn a post-match crowd into a massive riot - or even just use the massive crowd as cover - makes it obvious why the match would be off the cards.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • #468
    R P McMurphy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,129 ✭✭✭R P McMurphy


    Monty Burnz wrote: »
    I don't understand why they have ruled out using the water cannons against these knaves. They don't hesitate to deploy it against varlets in Northern Ireland, and it's proven to be effective - perhaps they need to modify some standing order or some such to deploy them?

    If you get a large agglomeration of knaves in one location, they can be quickly dispersed without any serious risk of injuring the varlets.

    I don't know how effective water cannon would be in the current situation. Pattern seems to be groups of people looting shops, when the police show up there is a brief standoff and then the group moves to another street to continue. Does not seem to be sustained standoff with the police so therefore water cannon and plastic bullets would not quell the situation as is not really a full scale riot, more a rolling looting


  • #469
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    R P McMurphy wrote: »
    I don't know how effective water cannon would be in the current situation. Pattern seems to be groups of people looting shops, when the police show up there is a brief standoff and then the group moves to another street to continue. Does not seem to be sustained standoff with the police so therefore water cannon and plastic bullets would not quell the situation as is not really a full scale riot, more a rolling looting
    Fair point - but if they can get to the locations quickly by listening in on the communications of the knaves, they can be in situ when they arrive. Their tactics will have to change to match those of the knaves.


  • #470
    djpbarry
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Colonialboy wrote: »
    I fell 100% sorry for the victims , but I dont completely blame the perpatrators.
    If the perpetrators are not 100% responsible for their actions, then who shares the responsibility, apart from their parents?
    Colonialboy wrote: »
    Maybe Im the only one who sees a connection between them earning 250k a week and some yob in Croydon taking his oppurtunity to smash a window and grab a mobile phone.
    Yes, I think you probably are.
    Colonialboy wrote: »
    The solution is out there...
    Let’s have it then.


  • #471
    djpbarry
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    LordSutch wrote: »
    Time for the Police to take off the gloves and get stuck in, bring in the water cannon from NI and add in the threat of plactic bullet rounds. The police need to stop pussy footing and fight back on behalf of the public.
    We don’t want the city turned into a war zone, thanks very much.
    FreudianSlippers wrote: »
    Oh I'd agree that by today they will have massive support.
    Yeah they would – from the rioters. Bringing the whole of London to a halt is exactly what they want.


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  • #472
    n32
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,221 ✭✭✭n32


    i guarantee if the cops laid a hand on any rioter, the politicially correct, human rights brigade would be out in force lambasting the met for heavy handed tactics. a government official said this morning that water cannon wasnt the answer, that community outreach was the way to solve it. nonsense. you can bet your life that the rioters would take a lot more notice of a few baton charges or an army unit facing them than the softly softly approach. pity the ruc didnt have the same reservations about rubber bullets and tear gas in belfast


  • #473
    southsiderosie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,565 ✭✭✭southsiderosie


    n32 wrote: »
    i guarantee if the cops laid a hand on any rioter, the politicially correct, human rights brigade would be out in force lambasting the met for heavy handed tactics.

    After Day 1 I would agree. But after three nights of rioting when commuters are being attacked by feral children on bicycles, and the looting has become more organized and systematic, I think the public is fed up and would support more heavy-handed tactics to restore public order.


  • #474
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,069 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    djpbarry wrote: »
    We don’t want the city turned into a war zone, thanks very much.

    But it was like a war zone last night, and too many people and their business are being destroyed, something needs to be done tonight before anymore mayhem takes place!


  • #475
    Thinkingaboutit
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,261 ✭✭✭Thinkingaboutit


    FreudianSlippers wrote: »
    Yeah, I got done for it myself last night. By no means am I trying to backseat mod but just to help others out I draw your attention to this post regarding the "s" word.

    And I got a warning for it. Not criminal s*** but poor, disadvantaged youths, victims of institutional racism blah, blah, blah. I think the Met know that if a single rubber bullet was fired, a single baton charge made, even a droplet of water cannon fired, that a veritable swarm of grievance organisations who don't give a damn about people who try honestly to live and work, and only about some supposed victims of 'disadvantage,' would wreck the future operation of policing.


  • #476
    djpbarry
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    LordSutch wrote: »
    But it was like a war zone last night..
    Things could still get far, far worse. London is still operational for the most part and that’s the way people want it to stay.
    LordSutch wrote: »
    ...and too many people and their business are being destroyed, something needs to be done tonight before anymore mayhem takes place!
    I agree, but this is not something that a co-ordinated police effort (albeit a very large one) cannot deal with. Firing plastic bullets at these guys is unlikely to quell the situation.


  • #477
    southsiderosie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,565 ✭✭✭southsiderosie


    Thinkingaboutit wrote: »
    And I got a warning for it. Not criminal s*** but poor, disadvantaged youths, victims of institutional racism blah, blah, blah. I think the Met know that if a single rubber bullet was fired, a single baton charge made, even a droplet of water cannon fired, that a veritable swarm of grievance organisations who don't give a damn about people who try honestly to live and work, and only about some supposed victims of 'disadvantage,' would wreck the future operation of policing.

    At what point though do elected officials step in and defend more heavy-handed actions of the police in order to restore public order? After three nights of rioting, any grievance organization that would complain about water cannons, curfews, or rubber bullets would and should get laughed out of town.


  • #478
    RandolphEsq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,296 ✭✭✭RandolphEsq


    Yahew wrote: »
    I dont get that. During the match the rioters would be at home, or in pubs watching it. Are they expecting that the riots break out afterwards?

    The amount of police required at the football match would be too much of a drain on resources. I do not imagine too many rioters would take time out of their rioting for a friendly football match!


  • #479
    um7y1h83ge06nx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,029 ✭✭✭um7y1h83ge06nx


    I'm amazed at how out of hand the Met have allowed things to get.

    I mean the following comment seriously and not a deliberate slur on Britain - is it a case that rioting is in a strange way considered part of British culture? And therefore the fact that initially small rioting broke out Saturday night didn't invoke a very strong response?


  • #480
    djpbarry
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Thinkingaboutit wrote: »
    I think the Met know that if a single rubber bullet was fired, a single baton charge made, even a droplet of water cannon fired, that a veritable swarm of grievance organisations who don't give a damn about people who try honestly to live and work, and only about some supposed victims of 'disadvantage,'...
    I’d love to know where all this sympathy for the rioters is emanating from, because I’m not detecting the slightest hint of it in London.


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  • #481
    southsiderosie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,565 ✭✭✭southsiderosie


    djpbarry wrote: »
    I agree, but this is not something that a co-ordinated police effort (albeit a very large one) cannot deal with.

    I think the only way it can be dealt with at this point is with an enforceable curfew, and that requires both the control of movement between neighborhoods and the credible use of force. I don't think the Met can do this on their own.
    djpbarry wrote: »
    Firing plastic bullets at these guys is unlikely to quell the situation.

    The hardcore ones, maybe, but that is what curfews and roadblocks can address.

    A lot of the rioters are just young punks, and at the first sign of serious force against them, they will go home.


This discussion has been closed.
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