Public sector going backwards again.

kylith · 04-08-2011 06:25PM

I wonder how many more teacher could be employed if government ministers had their wages lowered to reasonable levels.

Uriel. · 04-08-2011 06:28PM

kylith wrote: »

I wonder how many more teacher could be employed if government ministers had their wages lowered to reasonable levels.

Probably 5-10. Depending on what you deem to be reasonable wage levels for Ministers

JeanLucPicard · 04-08-2011 06:29PM

Anyone else sick of Teacher-bashing threads?

7sr2z3fely84g5 · 04-08-2011 06:37PM

kylith wrote: »

I wonder how many more teacher could be employed if government ministers had their wages lowered to reasonable levels.

This gov and last gov are made up of mostly former teachers,so nobody is going to step out of line and say anything.

Mike 1972 · 04-08-2011 06:38PM

JeanLucPicard wrote: »

Anyone else sick of Teacher-bashing threads?

Not really

The public service bashing does get pretty tiresome because it casts the net too wide however the teachers really do take the pi$$

Uriel. wrote: »

From what I remember teachers had class prep, corrections etc after the normal 4 o'clock "finish" and in fairness to three of my teachers they did a 2hr extra class voluntarily in 5th and 6th yr in the evenings once a week and in 6th year on a rota basis, provided supervised study 5 nights a week (not for extra money) for about 3 hours

Some teachers (the better ones) do these things all/most of the time.

Many rarely/never bother their @rse (A guy in my class on two occasions managed to prove one of our teachers never actually read the work he "corrected" he merely marked students according to what he thought of them)

Either way their pay structures are all pretty much the same.

Lord TSC · 04-08-2011 06:41PM

Prove the 22 hours a week crap you've posted.

When o was in secondary school, there's no way in hell my teachers did 22 hours a week.

From what I remember teachers had class prep, corrections etc after the normal 4 o'clock "finish" and in fairness to three of my teachers they did a 2hr extra class voluntarily in 5th and 6th yr in the evenings once a week and in 6th year on a rota basis, provided supervised study 5 nights a week (not for extra money) for about 3 hours

Problem is most teacher bashers dont take that on board.

Said it before and really need to save this so I can copy paste, but teaching is the only job in the world everyone has experience of and thus think they should be able to make judgements and statements on it. Problem is that as a kid or parent, you don't get to see all that extra stuff so you don't realise its happening. Then there are those who because they went to a dodgy school or they thought they had bad teachers in school, that all teachers are like that.

Dont get me wrong, there are bad teachers out there who do the bare minimum and doss, but its my experience they are not a tenth as prevelant as some people on here would have you believe...

kylith · 04-08-2011 06:42PM

Uriel. wrote: »

Probably 5-10. Depending on what you deem to be reasonable wage levels for Ministers

I'd say it's a bit more than that.

There are 166 TDs in the Dáil (I should have said TDs rather than Ministers, sorry).
They earn an average of €112,000 each p/a.
Assume that a fair wage for a TD is €45,000
That's a saving of €11,122,000
(112,000-45,000)*116 = 11122000
Assume that a teacher earns €35,000
You could employ 317 teachers by cutting TD wages to what I consider a reasonable level.

Kensington · 04-08-2011 06:43PM

Feeona wrote: »

That's ok, I have my proof that you are indeed talking bullsh*t.

Have a lovely evening

Where's your proof that teachers work all these extra hours please?

stephendevlin · 04-08-2011 06:45PM

The only people that will suffer now are the kids. Not the bankers or the Ministers or the Bond holders.

Cut the teachers by whatever percentage and that money too will go into a black hole with the rest of our "taxes"

This will NOT solve our problems. Unfortunatly we will be in DEBT for a very long time.

Unemployement is up at them moment and will continue to go up which means only one thing more of our taxes will be needed and less consumer spending means less money to the exchequer.

Ireland = Feckin Fooked

weldoninhio · 04-08-2011 06:56PM

I haven't thought this completely through, but off hand, why not cut the school year to 2 intense 6 month courses and cut classes in half?? The reduction in time to prepare for exams etc would be balanced out by the smaller classes and more teacher/student interaction.

jivingirl · 04-08-2011 07:15PM

This is a job where you can be told to f*ck off on a regular basis and can't answer back for fear of being accused of "picking on/bullying/intimidating" the little darling?

I have also experienced a door being kicked in my face on the corridor and the little darling gets off with a telling off!!

How about being grabbed by the arm and shoved out of the way in a classroom by a 6 foot tall 17 year old? ...And then having to tolerate him in the class everyday for the rest of the year?

These are only 3 of numerous incidents that occur in our school on a weekly basis!!

I start work at half 8 every morning, leave the school at half 4 every evening, with a 10 minute break (which is usually spent photocopying/dealing with students, etc.) and a half hour lunch break inbetween. I also usually have one or two bundles of essays home with me every night!

I teach 22 hours a week but i most certainly work a hell of a lot more.

I'm getting just over 500 a week, am i being overpaid?? I don't think I am, because I know of plenty of factory workers, lorry drivers, etc that work similar hours and are getting more money! And once finish time comes, half 4, 5 or whatever, they are out the door and don't have to think about it until the next morning. Oh, and my job is not secure, I find out in May or June whether or not there'll be a vacany in September.

04-08-2011 07:42PM

jivingirl wrote: »

This is a job where you can be told to f*ck off on a regular basis and can't answer back for fear of being accused of "picking on/bullying/intimidating" the little darling?

I have also experienced a door being kicked in my face on the corridor and the little darling gets off with a telling off!!

How about being grabbed by the arm and shoved out of the way in a classroom by a 6 foot tall 17 year old? ...And then having to tolerate him in the class everyday for the rest of the year?

These are only 3 of numerous incidents that occur in our school on a weekly basis!!

I start work at half 8 every morning, leave the school at half 4 every evening, with a 10 minute break (which is usually spent photocopying/dealing with students, etc.) and a half hour lunch break inbetween. I also usually have one or two bundles of essays home with me every night!

I teach 22 hours a week but i most certainly work a hell of a lot more.

I'm getting just over 500 a week, am i being overpaid?? I don't think I am, because I know of plenty of factory workers, lorry drivers, etc that work similar hours and are getting more money! And once finish time comes, half 4, 5 or whatever, they are out the door and don't have to think about it until the next morning. Oh, and my job is not secure, I find out in May or June whether or not there'll be a vacany in September.

Again, another post that makes no sense or argument?! wtf

jivingirl wrote: »

This is a job where you can be told to f*ck off on a regular basis and can't answer back for fear of being accused of "picking on/bullying/intimidating" the little darling?

And what? Do you think that if you were paid more (futher borrowing for the state), that kids would behave better?

If there is a problem with discipline, then surely schools need to toughen up and expel those students. Why doesn't your union campaign for this as hard as they fought for pay increases?

I have got problems in y job too, but I don't think I'm entitled to more money because of them. It's up to me to work at them.
If I don't like it, I can leave and find a job doing something else.

Surely you can too? I'm sure finding a replacement should be too hard.

jivingirl wrote: »

I start work at half 8 every morning, leave the school at half 4 every evening, with a 10 minute break (which is usually spent photocopying/dealing with students, etc.) and a half hour lunch break inbetween. I also usually have one or two bundles of essays home with me every night!

No free classes during the day?

jivingirl wrote: »

I'm getting just over 500 a week, am i being overpaid?? I don't think I am, because I know of plenty of factory workers, lorry drivers, etc that work similar hours and are getting more money!

No, I don't think many would argue that you are overpaid. But those higher up the scale in the public service are.

I know of plenty of factory workers, lorry drivers, etc that work similar hours and are getting more money than me also.

Does that bother you? Do you feel that no matter what, teachers ought to be paid better than everyone else?

sollar · 04-08-2011 07:49PM

DrumSteve wrote: »

One extra kid in a class is not a big deal.

What if the extra kid is a bit stupid.

gbee · 04-08-2011 07:53PM

jivingirl wrote: »

This is a job where you can be told to f*ck off on a regular basis and can't answer back

Bring back CP. In my class of 64 I had my locks pulled, knuckles rapped, head rapped, got the cane and the leather in primary.

By secondary, new approaches were coming in, like the principal being the only one to administer CP but my mate and I took the biscuit when we were thrown out of class and we'd have to give a written apology to the teacher.

We refused and spent the next several classes playing chess on the window ledge outside the classroom. Principal saw us a few times and eventually approached and stormed into the class and the embarrassed teacher said we had to rejoin class and the written apology was not necessary. Circa 1970/72

TheRealPONeil · 04-08-2011 07:54PM

salonfire wrote: »

Again, another post that makes no sense or argument?! wtf ...
Does that bother you? Do you feel that no matter what, teachers ought to be paid better than everyone else?

You just summarised your own rant.

So if teaching is such a cushy number - why aren't you there ??

You seem to be able to give enough guff in here to defend yourself in front of any group of teenagers !!

vamos! · 04-08-2011 07:58PM

salonfire wrote: »

Again, another post that makes no sense or argument?! wtf

If there is a problem with discipline, then surely schools need to toughen up and expel those students. Why doesn't your union campaign for this as hard as they fought for pay increases?
Increasing the PTR increases these problems. Every child is entitled to an education and thankfully we do not have the right to beat large classes into submission. Regarding expulsion and giving the majority of pupils the chance to do their very best, it is very difficult to expel a pupil. While Childrens Rights are an important step in the right direction but the increased PTR will make every child's right to an education nigh on impossible as special needs and resource will be cut back- it is not a case of squeezing another desk into the room and making do.
No free classes during the day?
Most days we have free classes. They are used to do photocopying (if the copier is working), tidy the classroom (if it's not in use), meet parents (occasionally) and prepare resources, correct copies, help with raffles, concerts and the likes. Of course, like all human beings we sometimes spend this time drinking coffee and reading magazines but then the extra work has to be done at home or after school. Resources do not create and copy themselves. Interactive whiteboards do not come preloaded and textbooks are not always perfect for every child. Like those in 'real' jobs teachers have to adapt to different situations.

Does that bother you? Do you feel that no matter what, teachers ought to be paid better than everyone else?

I think we can all accept that teachers are paid a decent wage for their profession not vocation, but we are certainly not better paid than most people with 5 years University, especially the growing numbers of us on poor hours and subbing contracts.

Feeona · 04-08-2011 08:01PM

Kensington wrote: »

Where's your proof that teachers work all these extra hours please?

Have I insulted your profession in some way that you demand this proof?

wild_cat · 04-08-2011 08:02PM

jivingirl wrote: »

This is a job where you can be told to f*ck off on a regular basis and can't answer back for fear of being accused of "picking on/bullying/intimidating" the little darling?

I have also experienced a door being kicked in my face on the corridor and the little darling gets off with a telling off!!

How about being grabbed by the arm and shoved out of the way in a classroom by a 6 foot tall 17 year old? ...And then having to tolerate him in the class everyday for the rest of the year?

These are only 3 of numerous incidents that occur in our school on a weekly basis!!

.

Perhaps those people are not cut out for teaching?

If you can't keep control of the class or a single student.....

There are a lot of teachers out there who should have never been allowed into a class room. Anyone who had a woeful Maths teacher will understand that one.

gbee · 04-08-2011 08:04PM

wild_cat wrote: »

Perhaps those people are not cut out for teaching?

If you can't keep control of the class or a single student.....

An unfair comment.

aligator_am · 04-08-2011 08:05PM

Gophur wrote: »

80% of the costs of education, in Ireland, is spent on staff salaries.

Something I'm not sure of, and hopefully someone can enlighten me, during the 3 months secondary school holiday, do teachers still get paid full whack?

The reason I ask is that I'm a private sector employee based within the public sector and I know that if the folk there take term time (basically they can take several weeks off in a row, maximum of 12 I think) they don't get paid for it but can get the reduced payments over the 12 months.

04-08-2011 08:09PM

TheRealPONeil wrote: »

You just summarised your own rant.

So if teaching is such a cushy number - why aren't you there ??

You seem to be able to give enough guff in here to defend yourself in front of any group of teenagers !!

Wot?

I never said teaching is a cushy number. I said if there is a problem with student discipline, then schools should demand more rights to expel those students and allow those who want to learn do so in peace..

I agree teaching is a stressful job. Paying teachers more doesn't solve problems with student discipline.

The reason I didn't become a teacher is because I'd rather spend my days with other adults

I wouldn't last 5 mins in front of a class of teenagers.

confusticated · 04-08-2011 08:09PM

vamos! wrote: »

[/B]
I think we can all accept that teachers are paid a decent wage for their profession not vocation, but we are certainly not better paid than most people with 5 years University, especially the growing numbers of us on poor hours and subbing contracts.

But most teachers have 3, maybe 4 years university no? (I'm not 100% sure of what the hdip involves regarding classes/teaching experience ratio, sorry.) I know that for new, young teachers it's hard to get a permanent place, but once you do get that place...I mean, if you're crap at your job in any other profession and do absolutely nothing, you generally won't last very long. There are plenty of teachers out there (had the misfortune to be "taught" by a couple) who have sat back for 30 years and handed out the same essays and lessons every year on auto pilot. And nothing is said to them, they get pretty good money for it and they know they can't lose their job.

Having said that, I had teachers who went way above and beyond what their job entailed, and I did appreciate that, but you shouldn't be able to choose to give up trying and still keep your job!

I think everyone agrees that increasing the class sizes is the height of idiocy though.

aligator_am · 04-08-2011 08:11PM

gbee wrote: »

An unfair comment.

Have to agree with gbee on this one, kids seem to have the run of the classroom now, if the teacher looks crooked at them then the student cries wolf, it's getting like America here.

Feeona · 04-08-2011 08:13PM

BEASTERLY wrote: »

Ignorance is bliss!

I'll defer to your experience on that

TheDriver · 04-08-2011 08:14PM

aligator_am wrote: »

Something I'm not sure of, and hopefully someone can enlighten me, during the 3 months secondary school holiday, do teachers still get paid full whack?

The reason I ask is that I'm a private sector employee based within the public sector and I know that if the folk there take term time (basically they can take several weeks off in a row, maximum of 12 I think) they don't get paid for it but can get the reduced payments over the 12 months.

It was sorted many years ago, Teachers are technically paid for the 9-10 months but it was resplit and paid over 12 months, so same as your friends.

Benny_Cake · 04-08-2011 08:18PM

Gophur wrote: »

80% of the costs of education, in Ireland, is spent on staff salaries.

I find it strange that people are surprised by this.Education is by its very nature a labour intensive process-teachers are pretty indispensible to it all I would have thought.

TheZohanS · 04-08-2011 08:29PM

TheDriver wrote: »

It was sorted many years ago, Teachers are technically paid for the 9-10 months but it was resplit and paid over 12 months, so same as your friends.

That's great. You won't mind providing us with an aul link so.

solerina · 04-08-2011 08:29PM

TheZohan wrote: »

Ah but they haven't taken a 20% pay cut, they still receive the 20% but it's paid into their massive pensions.

The 20% is not added into teachers pensions.....its a tax pure and simple, paid and never to be seen again.
Its a pay cut which most people (including you) are presuming is actually going towards a teachers pension....its not !!

Benny_Cake · 04-08-2011 08:32PM

confusticated wrote: »

But most teachers have 3, maybe 4 years university no? (I'm not 100% sure of what the hdip involves regarding classes/teaching experience ratio, sorry.)

AFAIK your average secondary teacher would have a degree under their belts (3 or 4 years), then the HDip which is a year, I think.So many of them would have 5 years experience.

confusticated wrote: »

I think everyone agrees that increasing the class sizes is the height of idiocy though.

Agreed - and there are already some schools,particularly in the Dublin commuter belt,which already have class sizes well in excess of that.When I was in first class during primary school,there were 40 of us and it was mayhem.In spite of that,the teacher did a fine job - most of the teachers I had over the years did.Couple of useless dossers along the way,but unfortunately you get them in all walks of life,including in some large private sector companies (where you can get away with more than s lot of people think)! No problem with disciplining teachers who refuse to do the job properly though.

TheZohanS · 04-08-2011 08:34PM

solerina wrote: »

The 20% is not added into teachers pensions.....its a tax pure and simple, paid and never to be seen again.
Its a pay cut which most people (including you) are presuming is actually going towards a teachers pension....its not !!

Ah ok. Can you provide me with a link to that paycut so.

Thanks.

Public sector going backwards again.

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