Legality of BioDiesel & Veg Oil as fuel; individual usage in Ireland, from Revenue

imakebiodiesel · 25-06-2011 08:20PM

There are two by products ,
The first is yellow grease. This is a semisolid mixture of vegoil and solid fats that is too heavy to make good biodiesel from. In the average chipshop waste vegoil there may be as much as 20% of this. For me this is no problem as I use it to heat both my workshop and my home in a specially built burner/ boiler. If you dont want to use it yourself I or someone else will be glad to take it from you.

The second by product is glycerol. You can use glycerol for loads of things and up untill a year ago I was always able to off load it to people who used it.

Contract cleaners who power wash yards , factories etc use it as a presoak. Brush it out onto concrete or tarmac, leave it for an hour or so and then power wash off, works a treat Im told.
Tarmac contractors use it to spray the truck interiors instead od diesel which is now banned.
It makes an excellent slip agent for concrete form work.
Once it has been demethed it can be used as a high potassium fertilizer.
( not organic so its no use to me )
It can be used to make soap and is an excellent heavy duty hand cleanser.

I no longer give any away because I have discovered a new way of using it. Mixed with water it has a freezing point of -45C. I fill plastic cubies with this mixture and use the sealed cubies to construct raised beds, filled with soil and planted with strawberries and soft fruit. The ability of the glycerol to absorb and store heat means the soil temp of the raised beds is on average 6 degrees higher than the surrounding garden. Result heavy crops very early. We have so many strawberries this year we have been giving then away to friends.

25-06-2011 09:38PM

imakebiodiesel wrote: »

I no longer give any away because I have discovered a new way of using it. Mixed with water it has a freezing point of -45C. I fill plastic cubies with this mixture and use the sealed cubies to construct raised beds, filled with soil and planted with strawberries and soft fruit. The ability of the glycerol to absorb and store heat means the soil temp of the raised beds is on average 6 degrees higher than the surrounding garden. Result heavy crops very early. We have so many strawberries this year we have been giving then away to friends.

maybe you should patent that!

dahamsta · 26-06-2011 11:37AM

Matt Simis wrote: »

When I pushed for this type of detail I was abruptly told to refer to their earlier answer. To them Biodiesel is a taxed (levied?) fuel, the name of the tax (Mineral Oil Duty) is irrelevant, as they are simply applying a pre-existing tax to a new product, something they likely are fully entitled to do.

Possibly, but if they're unwilling to quote chapter and verse, I'd be suspicious. It would be far from the first time Revenue have over- or incorrectly-taxed because they felt they were "entitled" to. They're a good bunch generally, but there's a very definite nasty element in there, particularly on the policy side.

If it were me, I'd want a full legal rundown. But of course it's not me, and it's easy to bitch from outside.

Builderfromhell · 31-07-2011 11:12AM

Have read this thread from start and my understanding is to legally run my vehicle on WVO (waste veggie oil) I would need to comply as follows ;

- if I use more than 1,000 litres of WVO in a year, inform revenue and pay tax on every additional litre of WVO used. I would need to fill in standard form.

- Keep revenue receipts in vehicle for production to inspectors who may be dipping fuel tank on road.

- Produce WVO for my own use only, not for sale.

imakebiodiesel · 02-08-2011 09:47AM

I wasnt aware of the 1000litre allowance on WVO, in my case using biodiesel there is no free allowance, I have to pay 44cents per litre from the start. Where did you find out about the allowance?

Matt Simis · 02-08-2011 09:58AM

imakebiodiesel wrote: »

I wasnt aware of the 1000litre allowance on WVO, in my case using biodiesel there is no free allowance, I have to pay 44cents per litre from the start. Where did you find out about the allowance?

Its not an allowance, its just the first goal post in the tax owed.

Builderfromhell · 02-08-2011 11:52AM

I got the info. on 1,000 litres before paying duty from Op's first post (Page 1).

"I followed on from the above asking about the mysterious "revenue form" that says you can use 1000litres of Veg oil before paying the duty (and you keep track of the usage) and was told the previous reply was the policy, end of discussion."

It is not clear to me does this mean the first 1,000 litres ever made or the first 1,000 litres made very year.

imakebiodiesel · 03-08-2011 08:20AM

I asked my revenue officer who did a visit this week. he has never heard of this mysterious form mentioning 1000 litres and was quite clear about the situation. If you put veg oil or anything else into your vehicles fuel tank you are legally obliged to have paid mineral oil tax on it and if you have not, your vehicle will be impounded until you have paid the fine 2500 euro and any assessed back tax.

If anyone is interested in seeing legal biodiesel being made I shall be running a Biodiesel making demonstration on Saturday 6th August at 9.30 am. I will be making 150 litres using glycerol pretreatment and the 2 stage method. The IMB drywash system and a new methoxide injection system will be on show. Biodiesel quality testing will be explained and if you have veg oil or biodiesel you want tested for free, bring it along. As usual, all are welcome, no charge.

Call <snip - PM imakebiodiesel for his number> for details and directions.
5 years of experience, 12,500 litres of biodiesel and 100,000 miles of carefree legal motoring.

Matt Simis · 03-08-2011 10:24AM

imakebiodiesel wrote: »

I asked my revenue officer who did a visit this week. he has never heard of this mysterious form mentioning 1000 litres and was quite clear about the situation.

It was me that posted it and its directly from Revenue, in writing:

"The duty (Mineral Oil Tax) on 100% biodiesel is EUR425.72 per 1,000 litres." Duty is due to be paid from the first 1000 litres and thereafter.
Its not an allowance, its merely they calculate the tax owed in 1000litre blocks, 1000 litres is a small amount over the period of a year even for individual usage. Im not sure what the confusion is!

Builderfromhell · 03-08-2011 11:08AM

Matt Simis wrote: »

It was me that posted it and its directly from Revenue, in writing:

"The duty (Mineral Oil Tax) on 100% biodiesel is EUR425.72 per 1,000 litres." Duty is due to be paid from the first 1000 litres and thereafter.
Its not an allowance, its merely they calculate the tax owed in 1000litre blocks, 1000 litres is a small amount over the period of a year even for individual usage. Im not sure what the confusion is!

Trying to understand this.
If I use less than 1,000 litres of WVO in a year then I am not liable for any duty.
If I use say 1,500 litres in a year I pay duty on the 500 litres only.
I realise 1,000 litres is not a massive amount but a two car family might rarely use one of their cars.

Anyone got a link to revenue website section that deals with this.

Builderfromhell · 03-08-2011 11:10AM

imakebiodiesel wrote: »

I asked my revenue officer who did a visit this week. he has never heard of this mysterious form mentioning 1000 litres and was quite clear about the situation. If you put veg oil or anything else into your vehicles fuel tank you are legally obliged to have paid mineral oil tax on it and if you have not, your vehicle will be impounded until you have paid the fine 2500 euro and any assessed back tax.

If anyone is interested in seeing legal biodiesel being made I shall be running a Biodiesel making demonstration on Saturday 6th August at 9.30 am. I will be making 150 litres using glycerol pretreatment and the 2 stage method. The IMB drywash system and a new methoxide injection system will be on show. Biodiesel quality testing will be explained and if you have veg oil or biodiesel you want tested for free, bring it along. As usual, all are welcome, no charge.

Call <snip - PM imakebiodiesel for his number> for details and directions.
5 years of experience, 12,500 litres of biodiesel and 100,000 miles of carefree legal motoring.

What part of the world are you in?
Sounds like many people here would be keen to go.

n97 mini · 03-08-2011 11:15AM

Matt Simis wrote: »

It was me that posted it and its directly from Revenue, in writing:

"The duty (Mineral Oil Tax) on 100% biodiesel is EUR425.72 per 1,000 litres." Duty is due to be paid from the first 1000 litres and thereafter.
Its not an allowance, its merely they calculate the tax owed in 1000litre blocks, 1000 litres is a small amount over the period of a year even for individual usage. Im not sure what the confusion is!

That's your interpretation of it, which sounds right, but it's a poor reflection on the Revenue that their statements need interpretations, altho your statement "Duty is due to be paid from the first 1000 litres and thereafter. " doesn't help, and it would read better if you said "Duty is due to be paid on the first 1000 litres and thereafter. "

Builderfromhell · 03-08-2011 11:23AM

Found this after googling;

From 'Finance Act 2007".

60 Mineral oil tax rates for substitute fuels
Summary
This section amends section 96 of the Finance Act 1999 to ensure that substitute fuels (which include biofuels) are taxed at the rate that applies to the hydrocarbon motor or heating fuel they substitute for.
Details
The EU Energy Tax Directive requires that substitute fuels are taxed at the rate that applies to the hydrocarbon motor or heating fuel they substitute for. This means, for example, that bioethanol, which is a substitute for unleaded petrol, is to be taxed at the unleaded petrol rate, and biodiesel, which is a substitute for diesel, is to be taxed at the standard rate for auto-diesel.
This section amends Section 96 of the 1999 Act to ensure that substitute fuels are taxed in accordance with the EU requirements. In addition, the definition of ‘‘substitute fuel’’ in section 94 of that Act is amended for consistency.
In practice, nearly all the substitute fuel being supplied to the auto-fuel market is biofuel, which qualifies for relief from Mineral Oil Tax under the scheme of relief introduced in the Finance Act 2004 and extended in the Finance Act 2006.

Highlights are my own.

Matt Simis · 03-08-2011 11:38AM

Builderfromhell wrote: »

Trying to understand this.
If I use less than 1,000 litres of WVO in a year then I am not liable for any duty.
If I use say 1,500 litres in a year I pay duty on the 500 litres only.
I realise 1,000 litres is not a massive amount but a two car family might rarely use one of their cars.

Anyone got a link to revenue website section that deals with this.

That really isnt what Im saying at all!

1: No, you are liable for duty, you just will have difficulty paying it.
2: No, you will pay duty on all of it, again, for the 3rd time, its not an exemption, Thats what the UK have, what we want, but not what we got.

n97 mini wrote: »

That's your interpretation of it, which sounds right, but it's a poor reflection on the Revenue that their statements need interpretations, altho your statement "Duty is due to be paid from the first 1000 litres and thereafter. " doesn't help, and it would read better if you said "Duty is due to be paid on the first 1000 litres and thereafter. "

Thats also generally correct, I think we are getting bogged down on semantics here. The fact of the matter is Revenue are not setup to deal with tax payments from micro-brewers, the tax is paid per 1000litres, an insignificant amount for a business (or even a normal user) but perhaps a large figure to someone messing around. My understanding is that you cannot pay the tax on something like 125litres however when I pressed Revenue on this they wouldnt answer as it would of course mean anyone could permanently claim they havent quite reached 1000litres yet.

Builderfromhell wrote: »

In practice, nearly all the substitute fuel being supplied to the auto-fuel market is biofuel, which qualifies for relief from Mineral Oil Tax under the scheme of relief introduced in the Finance Act 2004 and extended in the Finance Act 2006.[/I]
Highlights are my own.

Dont know what thats about, but the info from Revenue in this thread is current (2011), that unfortunately is not.

imakebiodiesel · 03-08-2011 11:50AM

Im no legal expert as is probably pretty obvious but my reading of the original letter posted by Mat simmis is that once you have used 1000 litres of svo/ biodiesel you owe the revenue 425 euro and after you have used another 1000 litrs you owe another 425 euros and so on. This arrangement is not per year but is continuous.

The amount of 425 has changed since the date of the original letter and is now 440 euro.This includes relief from the 40 euro carbon tax now applied to ordinary diesel.

I cant post my phone number or address on this forum but if you send me a pm Ill let you know where I am.

Builderfromhell · 03-08-2011 11:50AM

Have been searching through revenue's web site and can only find references to the 2007 Finance Act which refers to 'substitute fuel'.
http://www.revenue.ie/en/practitioner/law/finbil2007p.pdf

I can see why revenue officials themselves are reluctant to answers questions when the info. is either not readily available or complex.

I will drop into their offices and see if how a person can register to pay duty on Biodiesel.

Builderfromhell · 03-08-2011 11:53AM

imakebiodiesel wrote: »

I cant post my phone number or address on this forum but if you send me a pm Ill let you know where I am.

Just wondering what county you are in.

imakebiodiesel · 03-08-2011 12:01PM

The letter seems to say that once you have used 1000 litres you owe the Revenue 425.75 euro and then you owe another 425.75 once you use the next 1000 litres and so on. It is not a yearly arrangment.

The figure of 425.75 includes relief from the Carbon Tax which is 40euro per 1000 litres of ordinary diesel.

I may not post my phone number or address here but if you send me a pm Ill send you information.

imakebiodiesel · 03-08-2011 12:05PM

Sorry about the two replies basically saying the same thing, something funny going on today with my internet connection.
Correction... the duty on biodiesel is still 425.75 per 1000 litres.
Im in Ireland.

Builderfromhell · 03-08-2011 01:38PM

imakebiodiesel wrote: »

The letter seems to say that once you have used 1000 litres you owe the Revenue 425.75 euro and then you owe another 425.75 once you use the next 1000 litres and so on. It is not a yearly arrangment.

The figure of 425.75 includes relief from the Carbon Tax which is 40euro per 1000 litres of ordinary diesel.

I may not post my phone number or address here but if you send me a pm Ill send you information.

Have been re-reading the thread by way of informing myself on the tax issue and noticed you have in fact given your address and phone number in post 10.
You may want to edit if you want to remain annonymous.

imakebiodiesel · 03-08-2011 02:08PM

I dont want to be anonymous, Its just that its against the rules of this forum to give out phone numbers etc.

themonic · 26-08-2011 03:08PM

Hi Guys,
Is anyone now if (by law) I want to run my car using waste vegetable oil, is it biodiesel?

Definition of biodiesel (by wikipeida):
"Biodiesel refers to a vegetable oil- or animal fat-based diesel fuel consisting of long-chain alkyl (methyl, propyl or ethyl) esters. Biodiesel is typically made by chemically reacting lipids (e.g., vegetable oil, animal fat (tallow)) with an alcohol."

I was try to find information about legality of it, but I couldn't find any clear information. I want to mod my car, and supply engine with waste vegetable oil for private purpose (not commercial) What tax do I have to pay?
Where I can find source of information?

Matt Simis · 26-08-2011 03:54PM

themonic wrote: »

Hi Guys,
Is anyone now if (by law) I want to run my car using waste vegetable oil, is it biodiesel?

Definition of biodiesel (by wikipeida):
"Biodiesel refers to a vegetable oil- or animal fat-based diesel fuel consisting of long-chain alkyl (methyl, propyl or ethyl) esters. Biodiesel is typically made by chemically reacting lipids (e.g., vegetable oil, animal fat (tallow)) with an alcohol."

I was try to find information about legality of it, but I couldn't find any clear information. I want to mod my car, and supply engine with waste vegetable oil for private purpose (not commercial) What tax do I have to pay?
Where I can find source of information?

Try reading this thread!
Also you posted the definition of BioDiesel yet seem to ask if waste veg oil is BioDiesel... did you read that you posted? :P

BioDiesel and WVO / SVO / PPO are not the same thing and this has nothing at all to do with the tax owed (same on all). Read the thread.

themonic · 26-08-2011 09:25PM

Ok Matt,
I have read this thread again... Please ignore my previous post

Not everything is clear for me. I have to pay duty to revenue 425.75 for every 1000 litres of WVO, or any substitute of fuel I made myself to supply my car. Do I have to pay duty ahead? Or after I use 1000 l of oil? Which form I have to fill? This is not clear for me.
I know this is not the same BioDiesel, WVO, SVO, PPO, but is duty the same?

The Guvnor · 27-08-2011 11:23AM

I'd be interested in seeing biodiesel being made.

I would also be interested in whether or not it would be suitable for a v6 VW tdi.

Even it was not so ideal for the car - using it to heat the house would still make some sense. We already run the boiler on gas oil.

A great thread but one I need to actually read again/not skim over!:D

imakebiodiesel · 01-09-2011 12:32PM

Im holding a demonstration of making biodiesel this weekend at my place in county Waterford. All are welcome, no charge. If you already have collected some waste veg oil bring it along and Ill test it for free.
Ill be making 150 litres by the 2 stage method and also explaining how my drying and drywash system works.
Starts at 9.30am on Saturday, pm me for details or directions

Shane732 · 01-09-2011 02:09PM

So Matt how does the V8 go on biodiesel?!!

Mr Benevolent · 02-09-2011 08:34AM

Shane732 wrote: »

So Matt how does the V8 go on biodiesel?!!

Badly, I imagine

Pharaoh1 · 02-09-2011 03:25PM

themonic wrote: »

Ok Matt,
I have read this thread again... Please ignore my previous post

Not everything is clear for me. I have to pay duty to revenue 425.75 for every 1000 litres of WVO, or any substitute of fuel I made myself to supply my car. Do I have to pay duty ahead? Or after I use 1000 l of oil? Which form I have to fill? This is not clear for me.
I know this is not the same BioDiesel, WVO, SVO, PPO, but is duty the same?

I've read the thread a couple of times.
I have a car that was converted to run on PPO and did so (for maybe 100,000 miles) while it was possible to buy the stuff from authorised suppliers.
Now there are no suppliers so I'm back on diesel.

I just want to buy veg oil to put in the car not store it or modify it. In addition to the questions posed by themonic I'm wondering do I have to produce receipts for the revenue for the veg oil I buy.
What if I buy it in Tesco or Aldi or from a wholesaler or whoever - is this practical? TBH with the price of "new" veg oil its not really economical but I would like to use it the odd time and the smell from the car was great.
What should I do?
Do I just carefully keep every till receipt in the car and if I'm dipped explain to the customs officer that I'm waiting until I get to 1000 litres to pay the revenue?
Should I just contact the revenue and ask them directly?

themonic · 02-09-2011 03:37PM

Vegetable Oil cannot be used as fuel unless purchased as such
Quote:
Vegetable oil for use as auto-fuel may only be obtained from a person licensed under section 101 of the Finance Act 1999 to supply such fuel (these mainly are roadside "service stations" or authorised warehousekeepers).
In all cases, Mineral Oil Tax must be paid on vegetable oil used or intended for use as motor or heating fuel.

Oil from market can not be used as a fuel. Even if it could be, if you add duty 42c per L + €1.35 (1L of veg oil)= €1.77

BTW, this smell is lovely

Legality of BioDiesel & Veg Oil as fuel; individual usage in Ireland, from Revenue

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