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Legality of BioDiesel & Veg Oil as fuel; individual usage in Ireland, from Revenue

  • 08-02-2011 2:46pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,718 ✭✭✭


    Ive been active in playing with different compositions of various fuels as noted on the forum already and purposely sidestepped the legality of it till now. I have seen several people quote strange "forms" from Revenue and odd guidelines issued by them and bizarre conversations with Gardai so I thought it best to directly ask Revenue. The answer I got was not what was reported here previously.

    I also asked them if I could quote them publicly and was (grudgingly?) told I can as long as they arent misrepresented.

    The question was simple:
    > What is the duty to be paid on and how is it paid regarding:
    > - Home Produced BioDiesel
    > - Vegetable Oil used directly as Fuel
    This was routed to the Excise Branch of Revenue.
    The responses (summarised) and emphasis added by me:

    BioDiesel - cannot be legally home produced.
    Production of biodiesel may only take place in a premises approved by the Revenue Commissioners (i.e. in a tax warehouse) and such production may only be carried on by a person authorised by the Revenue Commissioners to carry On such production (i.e. an authorised warehousekeeper)). To obtain such approval and authorisation a person must apply to their local office of the Revenue Commissioners where they will receive full information on what is involved.

    The duty (Mineral Oil Tax) on 100% biodiesel is EUR425.72 per 1,000 litres.
    This is lower than the rate chargeable for "fossil" auto-diesel (EUR465.70 per 1,000 litres), because biofuel is exempt from the carbon charge component of Mineral Oil Tax (currently EUR39.98 per 1,000 litres for auto-diesel).

    Mineral Oil Tax is payable at the time the fuel is released from a tax warehouse for consumption, at which time a document - referred to as a "home consumption warrant" - must be submitted by the authorised warehousekeeper, to the officer of the Revenue Commissioners who has responsibility for the tax warehouse concerned.
    Vegetable Oil cannot be used as fuel unless purchased as such
    Vegetable oil for use as auto-fuel may only be obtained from a person licensed under section 101 of the Finance Act 1999 to supply such fuel (these mainly are roadside "service stations" or authorised warehousekeepers).
    In all cases, Mineral Oil Tax must be paid on vegetable oil used or intended for use as motor or heating fuel.
    Note: Neither Veg Oil or BioDiesel are "mineral oils" so its rather depressing our Government see fit to apply the Mineral Oil Tax.
    Note2: The saving of the "Carbon Tax" on the (bio)fuels is a joke, EUR40 cheaper per 1000L.


    I followed on from the above asking about the mysterious "revenue form" that says you can use 1000litres of Veg oil before paying the duty (and you keep track of the usage) and was told the previous reply was the policy, end of discussion.


    For comparison, our neighbours in the UK have an established and logical approach to BioDiesel and BioBlends (Veg Oil) as seen here.
    If you produce 2,500 litres or more biofuels a year, or use them as motor fuel on which duty has not been paid, you will need to contact us so that we can make arrangements for you to account for the excise duty due on any products set aside, or delivered for use, as a motor fuel.
    Note: If you have produced less than 2,500 litres in the last 12 months, or if you expect to produce less than this amount in the next 12 months, you may be an exempt producer. If you are an exempt producer you are only required to keep production records (see item 2 in the above table). See paragraph 4.2.1 for more information.

    The UK approach supports an open and innovate home industry which may grow into a commercial enterprise and does not "stamp out" the Home enthusiast. The Irish approach is draconian, contradictory and illogical.

    This might be something to raise when your Political representative comes canvassing.


«13

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 813 ✭✭✭Satanta


    Is there any info on how bio diesel can be produced at home?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,029 ✭✭✭shedweller




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,718 ✭✭✭Matt Simis


    Satanta wrote: »
    Is there any info on how bio diesel can be produced at home?

    Put that in the other thread! In summary:
    Home Biodiesel production requires the sourcing of Veg Oil, Methanol and Caustic soda. Via a process of transesterification from an alcohol base to a glycerol and ester base. Glycerol needs to be removed and as does excess water. You can make your own BioDiesel processor or buy one for approx EUR800. You still need to source your own chemicals.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 122 ✭✭demag


    I got the same about the "Tax Warehouse" when I tried to do this too. revenue man wouldn't tell me over the phone, he actually came out to the house to see me.
    Sounds like the lazy fekers in charge of this just applied the same rules for fossil fuel instead of actually having to think of bio fuel as a different type of fuel.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,718 ✭✭✭Matt Simis


    I have the opportunity to talk to a newly elected TD on this issue, if anyone has any questions or proposals, PM me.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 119 ✭✭guano_jim


    no need to PM this: remove the restrictive thinking from the likes of Revenue and others, to encourage innovation and job creation: too long we have been subjected to the yoke of oppressive small minded thinking: there's a world out there, lets join it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,473 ✭✭✭robtri


    some good info here on it

    http://www.globalwarming.ie/renewables/finance-minister-brian-cowen-has-absolved-a-select-few-from-paying-excise-duty.html

    also check out approved suppliers of PPO which are exempt from excise duties.. give them a call and they might be able to help you out

    http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Press+Releases/2005/Minister+Dempsey+Announces+Excise+Relief+for+Eight+Biofuel+Projects.htm


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,718 ✭✭✭Matt Simis


    robtri wrote: »
    also check out approved suppliers of PPO which are exempt from excise duties.. give them a call and they might be able to help you out

    http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Press+Releases/2005/Minister+Dempsey+Announces+Excise+Relief+for+Eight+Biofuel+Projects.htm

    I believe they are all screwed!
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056185158


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 203 ✭✭imakebiodiesel


    I would agree with Mat Simis that the approach of the Revenue is illogical and contradictory but not draconian. I started making my own biodiesel 4 years ago. I make 150 litres every 2 weeks, it takes about 3 hours and costs 14 cents per litre( includes chemicals and electricity but not labour.)

    I contacted the revenue service in Waterford and an officer came out to visit me. He explained that I would have to register as an Authorized Fuel Warehouse and helped me complete the 2 page form. When it came to the section where I needed to submit an architect drawn plan of my property, a health and safety audit and an environmental impact study, he just stroked through them as not applicable to an enterprise of my small scale.
    I now send them a statement every 3 months detailing how much fuel I have used on the road and how much as heating oil with a cheque for the duty.
    My road fuel costs a total of 56cents per litre and I sleep well at night.
    I found the revenue services to be very approachable and helpful.

    I believe there is a place for small biodiesel producers.
    If you want to see biodiesel being made I demonstrate the process every second Saturday at my workshop in Lismore , County Waterford.
    Phone 0863169230 for details and directions or visit the Ireland Biodiesel forum at www.biodiesel.infopop.cc


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 813 ✭✭✭Satanta


    Thanks imakebiodiesel.

    The 56 c your biodiesel costs you. That is tax and raw materials included?

    How much did you have to spend on the equipment to manufacture?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 203 ✭✭imakebiodiesel


    I collect waste vegetable oil from 3 local restaurants every 2 weeks so my raw material is free. The chemicals, methanol and potassium hydroxide, and electricity cost me 14 cents per litre, ( if you buy in smaller quantities that could cost as much as 20 cent per litre) I pay 42 cents mineral oil tax on any biodiesel I use for road use. There is no vat applicable because I dont sell fuel, just make it for my own use.
    If you use biodiesel for heating oil there is only 4.7 cents per litre tax.

    My processor costs 790 euro and comes complete with a drywash system which takes a lot of hassle out of making biodiesel. It also includes a free lab testing service so that you can be sure the fuel you make is top quality.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,688 ✭✭✭✭mickdw


    On the collection of waste oil from chippers etc, do they generally have to pay to have this oil taken away or are there companies taking it off them (or even paying them for the used oil) due to a demand for alternative fuels?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 203 ✭✭imakebiodiesel


    Most restaurants have a contract with a company such as Frylite who both supply new veg oil and collect the waste oil. These companies are very active in urban areas where they can collect a lot of oil but in rural or out of the way ares there are still hundreds of restuarants who buy oil and dispose of it themselves. There are many other sources of waste veg oil, catering companies, hospitals, factory canteens, schools clubs, nursing homes, fulltime fire stations, b&bs, chip vans etc. The big companies collect about 80% of oil used in Ireland, the rest is still dumped.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,688 ✭✭✭✭mickdw


    Do the businesses that dont have the oil collected by Frylite or similar have to show how they dispose of their oil or can they just give it to anybody?

    Is the fuel you produce of suitable quality for use in the latest diesel engines? and do you have to make adjustments to typical home heating burner to use this fuel?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,555 ✭✭✭✭Marlow


    mickdw wrote: »
    On the collection of waste oil from chippers etc, do they generally have to pay to have this oil taken away or are there companies taking it off them (or even paying them for the used oil) due to a demand for alternative fuels?

    Some places charge to take the oil away. Frylite, which is one of the bigger frying oil suppliers, takes it away for free.

    /M


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,080 ✭✭✭✭Big Nasty


    Marlow wrote: »
    Some places charge to take the oil away. Frylite, which is one of the bigger frying oil suppliers, takes it away for free.

    /M

    Only to the people they supply to though!;)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 203 ✭✭imakebiodiesel


    The latest generation of diesel engines are very demanding of fuel standards and will not run on sub standard fuel whether it is diesel or biodiesel. I perform lab tests for biodiesel makers all over Ireland and the UK and I regularly see some pretty awful fuel. But properly made biodiesel is perfectly good for modern engines.
    Central heating burners must be reset to run on diesel / gasoil. All rubber seals and o rings must be replaced with viton ones. Riello supply a very good biodiesel kit for their burners.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    I have experience with tax warehouses, and I can tell you you can produce biodiesel at home without any problem, but if you do you cannot sell it.

    This is why the revenue official put a stroke through the plans of imakebiodiesel's building. An actual tax warehouse requires these plans.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 813 ✭✭✭Satanta


    The latest generation of diesel engines are very demanding of fuel standards and will not run on sub standard fuel whether it is diesel or biodiesel. I perform lab tests for biodiesel makers all over Ireland and the UK and I regularly see some pretty awful fuel. But properly made biodiesel is perfectly good for modern engines.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=71591760#post71591760
    Most cars made before 2004 will run start and run on biodiesel without any modification. Because of biodiesels very high lubricity many drivers notice a marked improvement in smoothness and engine noise. Some cars after 2004 have diesel particulate filters fitted and should not be used with biodiesel.

    I am very interested in making biodiesel. However, can we clear up whether or not it can be used in modern engines? From the two posts above there are discrepancies. What type of car do you run?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 203 ✭✭imakebiodiesel


    Yes the officer who dealt with my application made it very clear that I was not entitled to sell fuel. That is fine by me as all I wanted to do was make biodiesel for myself.

    There is no simple answer to that question because there are so many makes and models of engines. But Ill try to give an overall picture. Homemade biodiesel is a very variable product. I provide a testing service for biodiesel homebrewers and I see a big variation in the samples I test. In the worst of it only about 50% of the veg oil is converted and it still contains significant amounts of water and soap. I wouldnt put that into any vehicle.
    The best home brew biodiesel can be up to and even better than commercial standard fuel, better than 96% conversion, lower than 200ppm of water and lower than 20ppm of soap. This is the fuel Im talking about when i make suggestions about vehicle suitability.

    Cars and vans before 2004. Most of these vehicles will run happily on 100% biodiesel (B100) but some are more suitable than others. Because of biodiesels higher viscosity the injector pump is put under more stress especially when warming up. Pumps by mercedes and Bosch are more robust than pumps by Lucas, Delphi, CAV and worst of all Stanadyne. Bosch pumps were used in many vehicles of this period.
    I run two 1998 Skoda Felicia 1.9d cars which have Lucas injection pumps. I make very high quality fuel, I idle the engine for a couple of minutes when cold starting in the morning, and I have had no problems with them. The two cars have done nearly 100,000 mls on biodiesel, including a trip to Italy last year.
    Since 2004 diesel engines have become increasingly complicated. some engines now feature "drive by wire" which means that the onboard computer controls every aspect of the engine and if the computer fails the engine cannot run. Every calculation the computer makes about fuel is based on the assumption that it is using absolutely standardized diesel fuel. Any change to the fuel can easily confuse this type of managment system and cause problems.
    Diesel particulate Filters have already been discussed. biodiesel should not be used in cars with a DPF.
    Many newer engines now use common rail injection systems. This system will run perfectly on good qualiy fuel whether it is diesel or biodiesel but it will not tolerate any contamination in the fuel.
    A good source of information on suitability of vehicles is www.dieselbob.co.uk ,click on "vegetablebob" and there is lots of information there.
    If I had to select a vehicle perfectly suited to biodiesel I would say a Volkswagen Passat or Skoda Octavia with the PD injection system but no DPF, or the Sanyong Musso ( great engine, pity about the rest of the vehicle.) I know this doesnt answer your question but I hope it helps.


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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    If I had to select a vehicle perfectly suited to biodiesel I would say a [...] Skoda Octavia with the PD injection system but no DPF....

    I bought one of those last year - 1.9 PD and without a DPF. There's a big warning sticker beside the fuel inlet telling me not to use biodiesel. :cool:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 203 ✭✭imakebiodiesel


    A friend of mine in Cork has been driving one for the last 5 years excusively on 100% biodiesel . He has done over 100,000 miles with no problems .


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,718 ✭✭✭Matt Simis


    Many newer engines now use common rail injection systems. This system will run perfectly on good qualiy fuel whether it is diesel or biodiesel but it will not tolerate any contamination in the fuel.

    What confuses me about this (and what you are saying is generally the "way it is" and correct) is that I have seen personally a PD Diesel engine struggle on marginal quality BioDiesel and a Common Rail engine run perfect on Veg Oil blends (ie not even processed).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,555 ✭✭✭✭Marlow


    Matt Simis wrote: »
    What confuses me about this (and what you are saying is generally the "way it is" and correct) is that I have seen personally a PD Diesel engine struggle on marginal quality BioDiesel and a Common Rail engine run perfect on Veg Oil blends (ie not even processed).

    Pre commonrail engines (not PD) like the BMW 525tds engine (which also is found in the rangie and Opel Omega), the old Merc diesel engines, all VW Transporter/Caravelle TDI and normally aspirated diesel engines have no problem whatsoever with unprocessed veg oil blends, as long as the mix is pre-heated. In the BMWs the preheater is actually already there, so no modifications needed.

    PD engines need an extreme good quality of biodiesel. VegOil blends are a no go. The injectors are just very fragile.

    And common rails, i'd be careful with veg oil blends, but processed biodiesel should be fine.

    I think there's actually a list of manufacturer recommendations somewhere, that list what engine can handle what mix of biodiesel. Some engines will run on 100%, others might only be able to handle a 30% or 10% mix.

    /M


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,175 ✭✭✭Top Dog


    Marlow wrote: »
    I think there's actually a list of manufacturer recommendations somewhere, that list what engine can handle what mix of biodiesel. Some engines will run on 100%, others might only be able to handle a 30% or 10% mix.

    /M
    If you come across it again could you post a link please? Sadly everywhere I've checked so far has told me that I can't run Bio in any dilution rate. There's a bloke in the UK taking the plunge and trying it anyway, but could be a while before he reports back on it, so for now I'm stuck with regular diesel.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,718 ✭✭✭Matt Simis


    Top Dog wrote: »
    If you come across it again could you post a link please? Sadly everywhere I've checked so far has told me that I can't run Bio in any dilution rate. There's a bloke in the UK taking the plunge and trying it anyway, but could be a while before he reports back on it, so for now I'm stuck with regular diesel.

    Quality BioDiesel really should work in near everything but the most exotic CR. You can also just blend it into diesel if you are worried.
    What are you driving?

    I remember my Phaeton (V10TDI) said in the manual that "EN14214 (standardised BioDiesel)" was fine (assumed 100% as no blend mentioned) but at the same time VW UK said all their vehicles only support 5% Blends.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,175 ✭✭✭Top Dog


    Driving a Shogun with the common rail 3.2Di-D engine in it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 813 ✭✭✭Satanta


    Peugeot 407 2.0
    It's common rail. Only concern I would have is the DPF, but I believe running a tank of regular diesel every 4 tanks or so should help burn off any particles. Anybody think different?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 203 ✭✭imakebiodiesel


    The issues with common rail systems is with contamination in the fuel. Sludge and dirt will be collected in the fuel filter but water will not. It is water content that does the damage. If high quality biodiesel is dried to below 200ppm of water there should be no problem.
    Older diesel engines are very forgiving of fuel quality but the latest generation are not and probably best run on blends of 25% to begin with. If it runs well then the percentage could be increased.
    The DPF problem will not be solved by putting in the odd tank of diesel.
    An engine equipped with a DPF injects a small amount of fuel into the cylinder during the exhaust cycle. This fuel does not burn, instead it evaporates and is carried out along with the exhaust into the DPF. There it cleans the filter element.
    Biodiesel has a higher boiling point than ordinary diesel. It will not evaporate properly in the cylinder and instead it wets the cylinder bores. It is drawn past the piston rings into the sump where it dilutes the oil. the first thing you will know about this is when a warning appears on the dash " oil level too high". By that time damage may already have been done.
    One biodiesel brewer I know drives a Volvo with a DPF. He has scored marks on his dipstick every 1 mm. Every Saturday, parked in exactly the same place, he checks his oil level. If it increases by more than 2 ml he changes his oil. In 2 years and 40,000 miles he has had to do unscheduled oil changes twice.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 203 ✭✭imakebiodiesel


    If anyone would like to see biodiesel being made I am doing a demonstration on Saturday 7th May at 9.30am. I will be making 150 litres of high quality fuel. You will also be able to see my central heating boiler which runs on waste veg oil. It has kept our house cozy and warm for 3 winters now at a total cost of zero euros.:)
    All are welcome, no charge
    My address is The Railway Station , Lismore, Co. Waterford.
    Pm me for details or directions if you need them.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 203 ✭✭imakebiodiesel


    I will be making a 150 lire batch of biodiesel on Saturday morning 18th may. If anyone wants to come along and see how its done your are very welcome.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,555 ✭✭✭✭Marlow


    I will be making a 150 lire batch of biodiesel on Saturday morning 18th may. If anyone wants to come along and see how its done your are very welcome.

    You mean, June 18th ? Looks like I'll finally have time, this time around :)

    /M


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 203 ✭✭imakebiodiesel


    Sorry my mistake 18th June , this Saturday.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 464 ✭✭alo1587


    Damn,I just saw this now.Pity I missed it.When will you be doing the next demonstration imakebiodiesel? I fitted my 02 nissan primera 'test rig' with a wvo kit today,the kit is working fine,just havent got a chance to collect the veg oil yet,I would be very interested in seeing how its done.Thanks


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,673 ✭✭✭kkelly77


    alo1587 wrote: »
    Damn,I just saw this now.Pity I missed it.When will you be doing the next demonstration imakebiodiesel? I fitted my 02 nissan primera 'test rig' with a wvo kit today,the kit is working fine,just havent got a chance to collect the veg oil yet,I would be very interested in seeing how its done.Thanks

    +1

    When's the next date imakebiodisel?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 203 ✭✭imakebiodiesel


    Ill be doimg another batch in about 2 weeks, watch this space.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,158 ✭✭✭✭Berty


    Ill be doimg another batch in about 2 weeks, watch this space.

    Surely you require a Waste Collection Permit to collect the oil from the restaurants?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 203 ✭✭imakebiodiesel


    The waste control regulations specifically exempt any vehicle of less than half a ton per axle from the regulations.
    In other words if you collect and transport waste veg oil in a car or car and trailer you are not breaking the law. If you use a truck you need a permit.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 679 ✭✭✭Darsad


    The latest generation of diesel engines are very demanding of fuel standards and will not run on sub standard fuel whether it is diesel or biodiesel. I perform lab tests for biodiesel makers all over Ireland and the UK and I regularly see some pretty awful fuel. But properly made biodiesel is perfectly good for modern engines.
    Central heating burners must be reset to run on diesel / gasoil. All rubber seals and o rings must be replaced with viton ones. Riello supply a very good biodiesel kit for their burners.


    Take this advice at your peril anybody stupid enough to put home grown bio into a modern High pressure common rail diesel engine will face a huge repair bill far out weighing any derived or perceived benefit. Also just to clarify the over fuelling of a DPF equipped vehicle is not designed to clean out the DPF with unburt fuel. The over fuelling only happens when required to raise the temp in the DPF to between 550 C and 700 C and incinerate any soot therein not to wash it !


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 203 ✭✭imakebiodiesel


    I dont disagree with any thing you say except the assumption that " home grown" is the same as "low quality". I have several friends who have been driving late model common rail engined cars on B100 for several years with no problems whatsover. The point is that they all make very high quality fuel, better in fact than many commercial producers.
    So yes, anyone who puts substandard fuel into a late model diesel is stupid and will face a big repair bill.
    My description of how a dpf works was only concerned with what goes on inside the cylinder head itself and why biodiesel is not suitable.
    I discussed the common rail issue recently with a Volkswagen dealership mechanic who confided to me that he will not fill up his new Golf at a filling station that has been built more than 15 years ago. Most older filling stations cant keep diesel dry enough to be safe with common rail engines.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 679 ✭✭✭Darsad


    The EN 590 standard Diesel fuel sold at the pump currently has a 7 % Bio concentrate rising to 10% in 2013. I know many manufacturers are experiencing difficulties at 7% and worried about 10%. I would be very surprised if your friends are running 1600 - 1800 bar high pressure common rail diesel engines on B100 with no damaging side effects.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 203 ✭✭imakebiodiesel


    The rules of this forum do not allow me to direct you to another offsite forum but it is not hard to find if you do a search under biodiesel and Ireland. There are people in Ireland,Uk and USA running common rail and PD engines on B100 without problems. The important issue is not the type of fuel, but the quality and level of contamination.
    There is no doubt that manufacturers are experiencing reliability issues with the latest cars and vans, and they are right when they blame fuel quality. However VAG have not had these problems in Germany where 10% biodiesel is already in place. There, the maximum permitted level of water and sediment is 200ppm instead of 500ppm in Ireland and UK. Another important factor is that fuel standards are strictly regulated and enforced by an independent agency. In Ireland regulation barely exists, and enforcement... dont make me laugh.
    Don't put any fuel into a late model car unless you are sure it it is top quality.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 679 ✭✭✭Darsad


    I think comparing the quality of Diesel in Germany and here is like comparing apples and oranges Germany & Sweden have the highest standard fuel in the EU at the pumps with < 10ppm of sulphur content .
    Slightly off topic but I also doubt very much that the washing of agri diesel takes place in Germany. How and where do you think washed diesel gets sold Ive not seen too many guys offering it at the side of the road. This is a massive problem for high pressure systems plus by the time the damage is done the owner has filled up else where and when tested the fuel sample shows up as ok.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,555 ✭✭✭✭Marlow


    Darsad wrote: »
    I think comparing the quality of Diesel in Germany and here is like comparing apples and oranges Germany & Sweden have the highest standard fuel in the EU at the pumps with < 10ppm of sulphur content .

    It is not. Because the standard that they have over there is what we're supposed to be running our common rail diesels on. The reason for the problems we're seeing is because of the bad quality, that we're getting.

    It has nothing to do with the fuel type though. Only with the quality. So saying BioDiesel is no good for a common rail engine is plain wrong.

    There's no excuse for the bad standards and testing, that is the norm over here.

    /M


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 679 ✭✭✭Darsad


    Marlow wrote: »
    It has nothing to do with the fuel type though. Only with the quality. So saying BioDiesel is no good for a common rail engine is plain wrong.

    There's no excuse for the bad standards and testing, that is the norm over here.

    /M

    Ok so show me a non modified mass production common rail diesel engine
    that the manufacturer states can be run on Boidiesel


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,555 ✭✭✭✭Marlow


    Darsad wrote: »
    Ok so show me a non modified mass production common rail diesel engine
    that the manufacturer states can be run on Boidiesel

    Not sure, how good your german is, but here's an article on BioDiesel from Volkswagens official german website: http://www.volkswagen.de/de/Volkswagen/nachhaltigkeit/service/glossar_nachhaltigkeit/biodiesel.html

    Essentially it states, that the reason why commonrail engines can't be cleared for BioDiesel in general, is because there is no clear regulation on the quality of BioDiesel. It does not say, that you can't run your commonrail engine on BioDiesel whatsoever.

    It also states, that the production of rapeseed available for BioDiesel currently only would suffice to deliver 10% of market demand for Diesel or Diesel equivalents.

    This makes my point exactly. The problem is not the BioDiesel, it is the quality standards of the fuel.

    /M


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 679 ✭✭✭Darsad


    You would want to use a better translator because that article clearly states for the reasons outlined Biodiesel is not authorised to be used in Volkswagen vehicles !


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,555 ✭✭✭✭Marlow


    Darsad wrote: »
    You would want to use a better translator because that article clearly states for the reasons outlined Biodiesel is not authorised to be used in Volkswagen vehicles !

    German is one of my natives, so I do not need a translator. And what the article states is, that there is no general clearance for the use of BioDiesel due to the lack of clearly defined quality standards in manufacturing BioDiesel. My translation was the meaning of the article, not literal.

    At this point your posts are clearly only trolling, but to no benefit to anybody.

    /M


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 679 ✭✭✭Darsad


    Well I usually take the literal meaning of a technical document !

    While your at it I think you need to look up the definition of Trolling too !


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,555 ✭✭✭✭Marlow


    Darsad wrote: »
    Well I usually take the literal meaning of a technical document !

    While your at it I think you need to look up the definition of Trolling too !

    As I wrote, your posts are clearly to no benefit and the article states nowhere, that commonrail engines (or diesel engines in general for that sake) can't be run on biodiesel. Clearly, you can't even admit, that you're wrong, even though you've been pointed at one of the biggest manufacturers websites.

    Matter of fact, the article states, that BioDiesel is a viable replacement for regular Diesel fuel, but with current production only could supply 10% of demand.

    Literal (as in word for word) translation will not tell you the meaning of the article. Thus a translation, that reflects the meaning is more useful.

    /M


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