Survey reveals a 44% pay gap between public and private sector

thebman · 31-07-2011 09:44PM

tayto lover wrote: »

I'm sure the P.S. workers are not getting anything more than they are entitled to. They have already been hit several times. Would you all not be better off discussing why we are paying the debts of gamblers who don't even live here ?

All I said if they were unwilling to accept that the original contract was no longer possible to honor then they should be made redundant and duties spread to other staff as they are unwilling to work for what their employers can pay.

Hardly unreasonable?

sollar · 31-07-2011 09:45PM

thebman wrote: »

All I said if they were unwilling to accept that the original contract was no longer possible to honor then they should be made redundant and duties spread to other staff as they are unwilling to work for what their employers can pay.

Hardly unreasonable?

What other staff though??

thebman · 31-07-2011 09:47PM

sollar wrote: »

What other staff though??

The other staff in the building. If they are all unwilling then you can hire new staff on new contracts for less money in current economic circumstances which will reduce the overall cost of staff.

sollar · 31-07-2011 09:50PM

thebman wrote: »

The other staff in the building. If they are all unwilling then you can hire new staff on new contracts for less money in current economic circumstances which will reduce the overall cost of staff.

Not as easy as you think. The unions are very big in the PS. Nobody would cooperate or train in the new staff.

Nijmegen · 31-07-2011 10:08PM

sollar wrote: »

Not as easy as you think. The unions are very big in the PS. Nobody would cooperate or train in the new staff.

Never has a more perfect opportunity existed - if the EU/IMF would agree - to do as Aer Lingus (and many other companies) have done and lay off the entire shooting match, and offer to rehire under new - sensible - contracts.

We're already in for years of austerity. I'd take a year or two of open warfare with the selfish, backwards looking, efficiency strangling unions if it means decades of efficient and cost effective public sector management to follow.

Be careful what you wish for.

SBWife · 31-07-2011 10:11PM

tayto lover wrote: »

I'm sure the P.S. workers are not getting anything more than they are entitled to.

The problem distilled to one word.

thebman · 31-07-2011 10:14PM

sollar wrote: »

Not as easy as you think. The unions are very big in the PS. Nobody would cooperate or train in the new staff.

No problem, simply document the existing job roles and how they are performed.

This is how some large corporations do it. They have an entire online document library that details exactly how to do each job role which is reviewed by management and independently audited detailing how to do every task in the organisation.

Any breaches are logged in annual reviews and must be resolved in 6 months or action is taken on the manager of the department.

tayto lover · 31-07-2011 10:16PM

SBWife wrote: »

The problem distilled to one word.

If you do you're weeks work you are entitled to you're pay.
If you are on the dole you are entitled to claim it.
If you have an opinion you are entitled to it.

Valmont · 31-07-2011 10:19PM

sollar wrote: »

Where i work we are actually short staffed now. We have all taken on extra work but it has now reached the stage where they have work/posts to fill and not enough staff to do the work. That is only going to get worse as more staff leave/retire and are not replaced. There will be problems down the line.

How on earth did the public sector function ten years ago when there were 65,000 less workers?

Trying to paint an "increment" as anything other than a pay rise is patently ridiculous to be honest. Just when I thought I'd heard it all...

thebman wrote: »

The other staff in the building. If they are all unwilling then you can hire new staff on new contracts for less money in current economic circumstances which will reduce the overall cost of staff.

I think you are grossly overestimating the flexibility of the public sector.

SBWife · 31-07-2011 10:30PM

tayto lover wrote: »

If you do you're weeks work you are entitled to you're pay.
If you are on the dole you are entitled to claim it.
If you have an opinion you are entitled to it.

My eyes are bleeding - please learn the correct usage of your and you're.

thebman · 31-07-2011 10:30PM

Valmont wrote: »

I think you are grossly overestimating the flexibility of the public sector.

Not really, there is no problem with getting rid of everybody as long as everything is appropriately documented as it should be.

The down time for switching over to people that are flexible will more than make up for the down time.

martian1980 · 31-07-2011 10:40PM

while the grammar nazis and public service kickers get their knickers in a twist, it's worth noting from the article THAT's THE SUBJECT OF THIS THREAD that:

"The effect of these measures, combined with measures to reduce the numbers of public servants and to restrict other elements of the public sector pay bill, has been to reduce the net cost to the Exchequer by 15.5 per cent between 2009 and 2011."

Quite a result!

tayto lover · 31-07-2011 10:42PM

SBWife wrote: »

My eyes are bleeding - please learn the correct usage of your and you're.

Its a good job i don't work in the P.S. then.

OMD · 31-07-2011 10:43PM

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Folks,

Please think about this...

At a time when ALL public sector workers have been hit with the pension levy and a wage cut the Sunday Independent(sic) actually publishes a story saying our wages have increased.

You couldn't make it up... but they have.

Most public sector worker's take home pay has decreased 20-25% in past three years, don't let their lies detract from that fact.

That is just so untrue. Now bobbysands show us some evidence. Everytime this type of crap comes up I ask PS workers for proof yet no one yet has. So, bobbysands81, be different provide the proof. Not just anecdotes, proof.

Even cymbaline has admitted his/her pay has gone up

31-07-2011 10:51PM

OMD wrote: »

That is just so untrue. Now bobbysands show us some evidence. Everytime this type of crap comes up I as PS workers for proof yet no one yet has. So, bobbysands81, be different provide the proof. Not just anecdotes, proof.

Even cymbaline has admitted his/her pay has gone up

I can categorically prove that public service wages have fallen.

I can categorically prove that public service wages have risen.

Which would you prefer? Or shall I prove both?

martian1980 · 31-07-2011 10:54PM

OMD wrote: »

That is just so untrue. Now bobbysands show us some evidence. Everytime this type of crap comes up I as PS workers for proof yet no one yet has. So, bobbysands81, be different provide the proof. Not just anecdotes, proof.

Even cymbaline has admitted his/her pay has gone up

I wouldn't bother, bobbysands, the cuts in costs to the exchequer speak for themselves.

no more paycuts til 2014 anyway

SBWife · 31-07-2011 10:54PM

martian1980 wrote: »

while the grammar nazis and public service kickers get their knickers in a twist, it's worth noting from the article THAT's THE SUBJECT OF THIS THREAD that:

"The effect of these measures, combined with measures to reduce the numbers of public servants and to restrict other elements of the public sector pay bill, has been to reduce the net cost to the Exchequer by 15.5 per cent between 2009 and 2011."

Quite a result!

No, the subject of this thread is that the gap between pay in the public and private sector continues to increase. It's pretty clear from the title to the thread.

OMD · 31-07-2011 10:56PM

Ulysses1874 wrote: »

I can categorically prove that public service wages have fallen.

I can categorically prove that public service wages have risen.

Which would you prefer? Or shall I prove both?

I have no problem accepting PS wages have reduced so I would love your "categorical proof" that they haven't. My problem is they have not fallen 20-25%

Andromeda_111 · 31-07-2011 10:58PM

Are we still doing the public sector vs private sector war in this country?

Divide and conquer was the name of the game and the government played it very well......seriously we are all in this mess together regardless of what sector we work in. I work in the private sector and my husband works in the public sector. When the times were good and a lot of private sector workers were getting good increases/bonuses/BIKs it was amazing the amount of people who said public sector workers were mugs because they were missing out just because they had a 'good pensionable jobs'. Then when the times got tough those good pensionable jobs were viewed with disdain and a view that they don't deserve any of it. We need to open our eyes to what really is going on and not just read the garbage that some of the newspapers are churning out. I haven't had a pay increase for the last 3 year, most people are in the same position and I'm just thankful to still have a job. My husbands down nearly 14k regardless of any increments that he may be entitled to.

I'd do the bloody lotto........if I could only afford a ticket! :rolleyes:

OMD · 31-07-2011 10:58PM

martian1980 wrote: »

OMD wrote: »

That is just so untrue. Now bobbysands show us some evidence. Everytime this type of crap comes up I as PS workers for proof yet no one yet has. So, bobbysands81, be different provide the proof. Not just anecdotes, proof.

Even cymbaline has admitted his/her pay has gone up

I wouldn't bother, bobbysands, the cuts in costs to the exchequer speak for themselves.

no more paycuts til 2014 anyway

Well if they speak for themselves that means Exchequer pay to PS has fallen 20-25% which is bollocks

irishh_bob · 31-07-2011 11:04PM

OasisGirl wrote: »

Are we still doing the public sector vs private sector war in this country? Divide and conquer was the name of the game and the government played it very well......seriously we are all in this mess together regardless of what sector we work in. I work in the private sector and my husband works in the public sector. When the times were good and a lot of private sector workers were getting good increases/bonuses/BIKs it was amazing the amount of people who said public sector workers were mugs because they were missing out just because they had a 'good pensionable jobs'. Then when the times got tough those good pensionable jobs were viewed with disdain and a view that they don't deserve any of it. We need to open our eyes to what really is going on and not just read the garbage that some of the newspapers are churning out. I haven't had a pay increase for the last 3 year, most people are in the same position and I'm just thankful to still have a job. My husbands down nearly 14k regardless of any increments that he may be entitled to. I'd do the bloody lotto........if I could only afford a ticket! :rolleyes:

public sector wages were ahead of private sectors wages all throughout the boom , the story to the contary is a union concocted one and one which has long been debunked

unit 1 · 31-07-2011 11:08PM

cymbaline wrote: »

Unfortunately, from the chair I'm sitting in, I can't see any way of weeding out the deadwood The only evaluation that any of us have is PMDS and that's kind of wishy washy. I know I'm good at my job and I work hard. I'd be more than happy for anyone to come in and scrutinise what I do but that isn't going to happen. I don't believe that how good myself or others are at their jobs is going to count for anything when the new revised numbers are released. I have heard Last In First Out mentioned. My fear is that they will use a blunt instrument, a process, to get rid of people. It will look good on paper for the IMF. That's all that counts really

As a coco employee I can sympathise with your position, but just because you know you are a good employee does'nt mean we all know it, and it certainly does'nt mean we know anyone who might be grading you is any good either.
Surely this is part of the reason for the air of despondancy in the ps in general at the moment. Many people can see decision makers above them that are simply not up to the job, but fear that these very same people just might be making decisions (often in secret) that will ultimately have a profound effect on their futures.
A typical example, recently our employer told us and our unions, that the financial situationhad deteriorated markedly since our previous meeting (about 3 months earlier) and that things had to move quickly to agree to their demands. The following day the local regional paper carried on its front page a report from them that their financial situation though challenging was bang on target.
The above illustration is typical of the way things seem to work all over the ps where the grunts on the bottom are usually spun whatever line management think will get them through the day and invent a new one for the next occasion.

tayto lover · 31-07-2011 11:08PM

These threads are very repetitive. There is too much bashing and blaming and they go round in circles. This one is the same as the last one, tedious and boring and going nowhere fast. Everyone is suffering in this recession and the media are doing nobody any favours as they are only interested in selling newspapers. I have enough of this.

Manach · 31-07-2011 11:13PM

unit 1 wrote: »

Many people can see decision makers above them that are simply not up to the job, but fear that these very same people just might be making decisions (often in secret) that will ultimately have a profound effect on their futures.
.

ditto in the private sector

Feeded · 31-07-2011 11:21PM

Please stop this thread. . . . I'm exhausted from this perpetual ranting. . There shouldn't be another public v private dispute. allowed on boards.ie . .we've heard ALL sides of EVERY argument. . .enough.

sollar · 31-07-2011 11:24PM

SBWife wrote: »

My eyes are bleeding - please learn the correct usage of your and you're.

You are forever at this sort of carry on... grow up.

Bullseye1 · 31-07-2011 11:27PM

I realise that the public sector has been hit with a pension levy. It should also be noted many in the private sector have had to halt all payments into a pension as their wages have reduced even more substantially.

And while in the good times all we heard from the public sector unions was "we only want what the people in the private sector earn". The tables have been reversed. You can expect to see many more of these threads until those in the private sector see parity. Something we are not seeing yet.

sollar · 31-07-2011 11:28PM

thebman wrote: »

No problem, simply document the existing job roles and how they are performed.

There is alot of work involved in that. Who is going to do that when they will know what is planned.

thebman · 31-07-2011 11:31PM

sollar wrote: »

There is alot of work involved in that. Who is going to do that when they will know what is planned.

It should already be done.

What if an employee was hit by a bus tomorrow heaven forbid? Who would know how to do their duties? If it isn't already done then this work needs to be performed immediately for just those type of situations.

31-07-2011 11:40PM

OMD wrote: »

I have no problem accepting PS wages have reduced so I would love your "categorical proof" that they haven't. My problem is they have not fallen 20-25%

But public sector pay has also increased. It was in the paper, so it must be true.

We can show that public sector pay has risen. We can also show that it has fallen.

We can persuade ourselves that public sector pay has increased if we look at the period from the start of 2007. The reason for this is that there were a number of pay increases to public service workers under the T16 pay agreement. Those increases came to more than 10% between the start of 2007 and the end of 2008.

But if you look at the period since the end of 2008 (when the government started to reduce the pay bill), then it is clear that public sector pay has fallen. At the end of 2008, average weekly pay was €956.71. By the end of March 2011, it was €871.09. That's a fall of about 9%, I think.

But those figures hide two other factors. The first one is simple; as well as pay cuts, a pension levy was also applied to public service workers, and this isn't included in the official statistics. While we can argue about the merits and demerits of public service pensions, the reality is that this levy was a pay cut by another name. At worst this amounted to 10% of salary, but I read somewhere that the average was closer to 7%. The other is more complicated. The statistics for public sector earnings include data for semi-state companies - but it isn't at all clear what the breakdown is. The 2009 pension levy and the 2010 pay cut didn't apply to these companies. What that means is that the earnings decrease for people working in public services (i.e. not working for semi-state companies) was higher than the statistics show, but we can't quite say how much higher.

So, using the official statistics produced by the CSO, and applying our knowledge of other factors, we can say (roughly) that public service average weekly pay fell by 16% between the start of 2009 and the end of March 2011.

We also have a sense that the decrease may have been more, because of the way the official statistics are presented. We have enough data to make a reasonable assumption that the decrease was higher than 16%, but we can't say how much higher without more data. Therefore, we can't definitively claim that the decrease was as high as 20% - but it isn't impossible. Claiming that the decrease was 25% would, to put it charitably, be a severe test of our computational skills.

So there you have it. Public service pay has increased. Public service pay has decreased. It has fallen by 9%. It has fallen by 16%. It has fallen by more than 16%, maybe even as much as 20%. All plausible, all in their own way true.

Survey reveals a 44% pay gap between public and private sector

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