Survey reveals a 44% pay gap between public and private sector

Bullseye1

http://news.eircom.net/breakingnews/19763475/?view=Standard

Interesting findings. Speaking from personal experience I am finding it more difficult in the past number of months to deal with local authorities who are slower to return calls, answer letters etc. The answer I am getting is reductions in staff. Has there really been huge numbers of people let go by local authorities?

RichardAnd

It's not breaking news at all, a similar thread popped up a few months ago and went on for several hundred pages, most of it being utter nonsense from both "sides". You can't discuss anything related to the public service on this forum without it descending into the asinine and facetious.

The_Thing

I only wish it were true.

Another Sunday, another bull**** article by the hacks @ the Independent

This nonsense is in a similar vein to 'research' carried out by Microsoft shills where the 'findings' show that using open source software \ applications costs more to use and maintain than Microsoft's own offerings.

Lumbo

Another example of the sindo taking figures and making up their own story to suit its argument and push the agenda of it's rich owners who pay little in way of taxes in this country.

Some sheep follow this, I wouldn't wipe my ass with it.

bobbysands81

Folks,

Please think about this...

At a time when ALL public sector workers have been hit with the pension levy and a wage cut the Sunday Independent(sic) actually publishes a story saying our wages have increased.

You couldn't make it up... but they have.

Most public sector worker's take home pay has decreased 20-25% in past three years, don't let their lies detract from that fact.

Bens

Instead of winding themselves up at how much this person or that person gets paid, I think people would be more productive looking for new higher paying jobs, or even going abroad. I doubled my salary by going to London, not long ago. My OH just is starting her job there in 2 weeks and has increased her salary by 30% by doing so for the exact same job. We're in the process of moving over completely. Just renting out the house to a friend while its on the market to be sold.

What prompted this move? First there was the constant begrudging attitude that seems to be taking over the Irish people. The pension grab was the final straw. All the little stealth taxes appearing are starting to add up. So we just had a look, and found to our surprise how much more money we could earn.

Id say, have a look abroad. You might be surprised.

irishh_bob

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Folks,

Please think about this...

At a time when ALL public sector workers have been hit with the pension levy and a wage cut the Sunday Independent(sic) actually publishes a story saying our wages have increased.

You couldn't make it up... but they have.

Most public sector worker's take home pay has decreased 20-25% in past three years, don't let their lies detract from that fact.

even consultants ( over 200k per year ) havent seen cuts of 25% let alone the average public servant , when you deduct for tax , the average cut is under 10 %

bobbysands81

irishh_bob wrote: »

even consultants ( over 200k per year ) havent seen cuts of 25% let alone the average public servant , when you deduct for tax , the average cut is under 10 %

Average reduction in take home pay is less than 10%?

How did you reach that stat or did you read that in the Indo as well?

Nijmegen

It's really academic what the % cut is at this stage. The deficit remains massive, growth is non existent and severe cuts to PS numbers - enforced redundancies - is the only real way forward.

The penny will drop with the IMF long before it does on this island. It probably already has. Just waiting for the right political moment.

Stavro Mueller

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Average reduction in take home pay is less than 10%?

How did you reach that stat or did you read that in the Indo as well?

I'm a PS worker (yes, I have horns on my head, wear a special badge when I go out in public and spend the day doing sudoko puzzles at work) and unless I'm being paid out of a different purse to everyone else, I can assure you that my take home pay has been cut by far more than 10%. I've no doubt that plenty more nastiness will be coming down the line for us - I hope to God that I will have a job at the end of it. That's what I'm terrified of. I work hard at my job but my fear is that a process will come along and I will get chopped, regardless of my work ethic. Just because I joined the job at the wrong time or whatever.

What saddens me is that there are people on this forum who are rocking in the aisles at the idea of jobs being lost in the PS. At the end of the day we are all ordinary working people who get up in the morning, shop in the shops as everyone else, pay the same mortgages, send our kids to the same schools and pay the same bills. I know the country is in deep **** and so too do the majority of public servants. I don't think though that the loss of jobs is anything to rejoice in.

sollar

Almost a quarter of private sector workers are on part time hours... i.e reduced hours. The public service aren't.

Nobody in the public service has received a pay rise in the last 4 years. We have all had our pay cut. Anything else is just spin and the Sunday Indpendant love spin.

murphaph

cymbaline wrote: »

I'm a PS worker (yes, I have horns on my head, wear a special badge when I go out in public and spend the day doing sudoko puzzles at work) and unless I'm being paid out of a different purse to everyone else, I can assure you that my take home pay has been cut by far more than 10%. I've no doubt that plenty more nastiness will be coming down the line for us - I hope to God that I will have a job at the end of it. That's what I'm terrified of. I work hard at my job but my fear is that a process will come along and I will get chopped, regardless of my work ethic. Just because I joined the job at the wrong time or whatever.

What saddens me is that there are people on this forum who are rocking in the aisles at the idea of jobs being lost in the PS. At the end of the day we are all ordinary working people who get up in the morning, shop in the shops as everyone else, pay the same mortgages, send our kids to the same schools and pay the same bills. I know the country is in deep **** and so too do the majority of public servants. I don't think though that the loss of jobs is anything to rejoice in.

If you are a dedicated public servant who gives their all then I'll be sorry if you lose your job just because of the date you joined the service.

It's a bullsh!t way to cut numbers. We need to remove the dead wood, not the decent workers. The problem is that the decent workers and dead wood stand shoulder to shoulder in the form of their union membership.

If a decent worker is prepared to stand in lock step with a waster, then the job of surgically removing wasters is made nigh on impossible.

The loss of jobs is nothing to rejoice in. The removal of wasters is however. It would pave the way for the better staff to have a chance of holding on to their pay if we weren't also paying for dead wood to punch in their hours and go home, having done little by way of productive work.

Stavro Mueller

Unfortunately, from the chair I'm sitting in, I can't see any way of weeding out the deadwood The only evaluation that any of us have is PMDS and that's kind of wishy washy. I know I'm good at my job and I work hard. I'd be more than happy for anyone to come in and scrutinise what I do but that isn't going to happen. I don't believe that how good myself or others are at their jobs is going to count for anything when the new revised numbers are released. I have heard Last In First Out mentioned. My fear is that they will use a blunt instrument, a process, to get rid of people. It will look good on paper for the IMF. That's all that counts really

sharper

sollar wrote: »

Nobody in the public service has received a pay rise in the last 4 years.

You mean except for pay rises in the form of pay increments?

Anything else is just spin

I'm hoping you can square the pay increment issue with this statement.

BlaasForRafa

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Folks,

Please think about this...

At a time when ALL public sector workers have been hit with the pension levy and a wage cut the Sunday Independent(sic) actually publishes a story saying our wages have increased.

You couldn't make it up... but they have.

Most public sector worker's take home pay has decreased 20-25% in past three years, don't let their lies detract from that fact.

And as usual the PS crowd come in to justify their inflated wages. They still don't seem to realise its 2011 not 2006.

RichardAnd

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

And as usual the PS crowd come in to justify their inflated wages. They still don't seem to realise its 2011 not 2006.

That's not what he did, he merely pointed out how that article was deliberately misleading.

sharper

RichardAnd wrote: »

That's not what he did, he merely pointed out how that article was deliberately misleading.

He gave examples of cuts which have occurred, that doesn't ensure a drop in average pay.

martian1980

*yawn*

sollar

sharper wrote: »

I'm hoping you can square the pay increment issue with this statement.

Yep.

Stavro Mueller

Perhaps it's like one of those enigma puzzles. I'd love to join this parallel public sector where wages are going up and up

sharper

sollar wrote: »

Yep.

Interestingly evasive. Luckily people can draw their own conclusions about what that means

murphaph

Increments are pay rises. End of discussion.

sollar

murphaph wrote: »

Increments are pay rises. End of discussion.

Increments form part of a pay structure. At anyone time only about a 1/4 of PS staff will be getting increments. That is because for the majority of your working life as a public servant you will be on the max of the scale.... the wage an experienced employee is considered to be worth at that particular role 100%.

If your still on the incremental scales you have not reached that level yet so you are being paid at 65%, 70%, 75%, 80%, 85%, 90%, 95% and finally 100% (or full pay for the particular post). As agreed on your contract. Increments is what they are called not pay rises.

A pay rise would be over and above that.

Stavro Mueller

I got an increment last year. After tax + pension levy were taken out, I was €5 a week better off. Hardly worth the admin it was worth.

BlaasForRafa

sollar wrote: »

Increments form part of a pay structure. At anyone time only about a 1/4 of PS staff will be getting increments. That is because for the majority of your working life as a public servant you will be on the max of the scale.... the wage an experienced employee is considered to be worth at that particular role 100%.

If your still on the incremental scales you have not reached that level yet so you are being paid at 65%, 70%, 75%, 80%, 85%, 90%, 95% and finally 100% (or full pay for the particular post). As agreed on your contract. Increments is what they are called not pay rises.

A pay rise would be over and above that.

See, thats the typical public service attitude. To people out there in the real world, those outside the cozy, cosseted, privilege of the public service there is either a pay increase or there is not.

Whereas the public service expect a pay increase (the increment) and a pay increase which is one of the major reasons that the country has a huge deficit. Even when they get a minor pay cut or are expected to pay a bit more for their pension many ps workers blithely complacently expect their increment (pay increase) but crib because they don't consider that a pay increase. The level of delusion in the PS is epic.

sollar

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

See, thats the typical public service attitude. To people out there in the real world, those outside the cozy, cosseted, privilege of the public service there is either a pay increase or there is not.

Whereas the public service expect a pay increase (the increment) and a pay increase which is one of the major reasons that the country has a huge deficit. Even when they get a minor pay cut or are expected to pay a bit more for their pension many ps workers blithely complacently expect their increment (pay increase) but crib because they don't consider that a pay increase. The level of delusion in the PS is epic.

I only expect what was on my contract when i took the job. Nothing more nothing less. Increments where there in black and white.

murphaph

sollar wrote: »

I only expect what was on my contract when i took the job. Nothing more nothing less. Increments where there in black and white.

Many tens of thousands of the people on the dole had black and white employment contracts. Circumstances change. Quite why you seem to feel a public sector employee should be immune to those changes is beyond me.

thebman

sollar wrote: »

I only expect what was on my contract when i took the job. Nothing more nothing less. Increments where there in black and white.

You can't have it both ways though. If your inflexible to changing conditions in the market then you should be made redundant as the state can't afford your contract so the position can no longer exist.

They can split your responsibilities to other roles. That is what happens in the private sector when someone is unwilling to accept the employer can't honor the original contract anymore and is demanding it be honored despite the employer not having the money to do so.

tayto lover

thebman wrote: »

You can't have it both ways though. If your inflexible to changing conditions in the market then you should be made redundant as the state can't afford your contract so the position can no longer exist.

They can split your responsibilities to other roles. That is what happens in the private sector when someone is unwilling to accept the employer can't honor the original contract anymore and is demanding it be honored despite the employer not having the money to do so.

I'm sure the P.S. workers are not getting anything more than they are entitled to. They have already been hit several times. Would you all not be better off discussing why we are paying the debts of gamblers who don't even live here ?

sollar

murphaph wrote: »

Many tens of thousands of the people on the dole had black and white employment contracts. Circumstances change. Quite why you seem to feel a public sector employee should be immune to those changes is beyond me.

The powers that be are free to do as they please. Doesn't mean i have to agree with it.

Where i work we are actually short staffed now. We have all taken on extra work but it has now reached the stage where they have work/posts to fill and not enough staff to do the work. That is only going to get worse as more staff leave/retire and are not replaced. There will be problems down the line.

sollar

cymbaline wrote: »

I got an increment last year. After tax + pension levy were taken out, I was €5 a week better off. Hardly worth the admin it was worth.

Makes a bit of a mockery of the €250 million figure being quoted doesn't it.

thebman

tayto lover wrote: »

I'm sure the P.S. workers are not getting anything more than they are entitled to. They have already been hit several times. Would you all not be better off discussing why we are paying the debts of gamblers who don't even live here ?

All I said if they were unwilling to accept that the original contract was no longer possible to honor then they should be made redundant and duties spread to other staff as they are unwilling to work for what their employers can pay.

Hardly unreasonable?

sollar

thebman wrote: »

All I said if they were unwilling to accept that the original contract was no longer possible to honor then they should be made redundant and duties spread to other staff as they are unwilling to work for what their employers can pay.

Hardly unreasonable?

What other staff though??

thebman

sollar wrote: »

What other staff though??

The other staff in the building. If they are all unwilling then you can hire new staff on new contracts for less money in current economic circumstances which will reduce the overall cost of staff.

sollar

thebman wrote: »

The other staff in the building. If they are all unwilling then you can hire new staff on new contracts for less money in current economic circumstances which will reduce the overall cost of staff.

Not as easy as you think. The unions are very big in the PS. Nobody would cooperate or train in the new staff.

Nijmegen

sollar wrote: »

Not as easy as you think. The unions are very big in the PS. Nobody would cooperate or train in the new staff.

Never has a more perfect opportunity existed - if the EU/IMF would agree - to do as Aer Lingus (and many other companies) have done and lay off the entire shooting match, and offer to rehire under new - sensible - contracts.

We're already in for years of austerity. I'd take a year or two of open warfare with the selfish, backwards looking, efficiency strangling unions if it means decades of efficient and cost effective public sector management to follow.

Be careful what you wish for.

SBWife

tayto lover wrote: »

I'm sure the P.S. workers are not getting anything more than they are entitled to.

The problem distilled to one word.

thebman

sollar wrote: »

Not as easy as you think. The unions are very big in the PS. Nobody would cooperate or train in the new staff.

No problem, simply document the existing job roles and how they are performed.

This is how some large corporations do it. They have an entire online document library that details exactly how to do each job role which is reviewed by management and independently audited detailing how to do every task in the organisation.

Any breaches are logged in annual reviews and must be resolved in 6 months or action is taken on the manager of the department.

tayto lover

SBWife wrote: »

The problem distilled to one word.

If you do you're weeks work you are entitled to you're pay.
If you are on the dole you are entitled to claim it.
If you have an opinion you are entitled to it.

Valmont

sollar wrote: »

Where i work we are actually short staffed now. We have all taken on extra work but it has now reached the stage where they have work/posts to fill and not enough staff to do the work. That is only going to get worse as more staff leave/retire and are not replaced. There will be problems down the line.

How on earth did the public sector function ten years ago when there were 65,000 less workers?

Trying to paint an "increment" as anything other than a pay rise is patently ridiculous to be honest. Just when I thought I'd heard it all...

thebman wrote: »

The other staff in the building. If they are all unwilling then you can hire new staff on new contracts for less money in current economic circumstances which will reduce the overall cost of staff.

I think you are grossly overestimating the flexibility of the public sector.

SBWife

tayto lover wrote: »

If you do you're weeks work you are entitled to you're pay.
If you are on the dole you are entitled to claim it.
If you have an opinion you are entitled to it.

My eyes are bleeding - please learn the correct usage of your and you're.

thebman

Valmont wrote: »

I think you are grossly overestimating the flexibility of the public sector.

Not really, there is no problem with getting rid of everybody as long as everything is appropriately documented as it should be.

The down time for switching over to people that are flexible will more than make up for the down time.

martian1980

while the grammar nazis and public service kickers get their knickers in a twist, it's worth noting from the article THAT's THE SUBJECT OF THIS THREAD that:

"The effect of these measures, combined with measures to reduce the numbers of public servants and to restrict other elements of the public sector pay bill, has been to reduce the net cost to the Exchequer by 15.5 per cent between 2009 and 2011."

Quite a result!

tayto lover

SBWife wrote: »

My eyes are bleeding - please learn the correct usage of your and you're.

Its a good job i don't work in the P.S. then.

OMD

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Folks,

Please think about this...

At a time when ALL public sector workers have been hit with the pension levy and a wage cut the Sunday Independent(sic) actually publishes a story saying our wages have increased.

You couldn't make it up... but they have.

Most public sector worker's take home pay has decreased 20-25% in past three years, don't let their lies detract from that fact.

That is just so untrue. Now bobbysands show us some evidence. Everytime this type of crap comes up I ask PS workers for proof yet no one yet has. So, bobbysands81, be different provide the proof. Not just anecdotes, proof.

Even cymbaline has admitted his/her pay has gone up

OMD

OMD wrote: »

That is just so untrue. Now bobbysands show us some evidence. Everytime this type of crap comes up I as PS workers for proof yet no one yet has. So, bobbysands81, be different provide the proof. Not just anecdotes, proof.

Even cymbaline has admitted his/her pay has gone up

I can categorically prove that public service wages have fallen.

I can categorically prove that public service wages have risen.

Which would you prefer? Or shall I prove both?

martian1980

OMD wrote: »

That is just so untrue. Now bobbysands show us some evidence. Everytime this type of crap comes up I as PS workers for proof yet no one yet has. So, bobbysands81, be different provide the proof. Not just anecdotes, proof.

Even cymbaline has admitted his/her pay has gone up

I wouldn't bother, bobbysands, the cuts in costs to the exchequer speak for themselves.

no more paycuts til 2014 anyway

SBWife

martian1980 wrote: »

while the grammar nazis and public service kickers get their knickers in a twist, it's worth noting from the article THAT's THE SUBJECT OF THIS THREAD that:

"The effect of these measures, combined with measures to reduce the numbers of public servants and to restrict other elements of the public sector pay bill, has been to reduce the net cost to the Exchequer by 15.5 per cent between 2009 and 2011."

Quite a result!

No, the subject of this thread is that the gap between pay in the public and private sector continues to increase. It's pretty clear from the title to the thread.

OMD

Ulysses1874 wrote: »

I can categorically prove that public service wages have fallen.

I can categorically prove that public service wages have risen.

Which would you prefer? Or shall I prove both?

I have no problem accepting PS wages have reduced so I would love your "categorical proof" that they haven't. My problem is they have not fallen 20-25%

Andromeda_111

Are we still doing the public sector vs private sector war in this country? Divide and conquer was the name of the game and the government played it very well......seriously we are all in this mess together regardless of what sector we work in. I work in the private sector and my husband works in the public sector. When the times were good and a lot of private sector workers were getting good increases/bonuses/BIKs it was amazing the amount of people who said public sector workers were mugs because they were missing out just because they had a 'good pensionable jobs'. Then when the times got tough those good pensionable jobs were viewed with disdain and a view that they don't deserve any of it. We need to open our eyes to what really is going on and not just read the garbage that some of the newspapers are churning out. I haven't had a pay increase for the last 3 year, most people are in the same position and I'm just thankful to still have a job. My husbands down nearly 14k regardless of any increments that he may be entitled to. I'd do the bloody lotto........if I could only afford a ticket! :rolleyes:

OMD

martian1980 wrote: »

OMD wrote: »

That is just so untrue. Now bobbysands show us some evidence. Everytime this type of crap comes up I as PS workers for proof yet no one yet has. So, bobbysands81, be different provide the proof. Not just anecdotes, proof.

Even cymbaline has admitted his/her pay has gone up

I wouldn't bother, bobbysands, the cuts in costs to the exchequer speak for themselves.

no more paycuts til 2014 anyway

Well if they speak for themselves that means Exchequer pay to PS has fallen 20-25% which is bollocks