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David Norris for President....would you vote for him?

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Comments

  • #2372
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Min wrote: »
    Since when did this become a discussion about homosexuals in Iran? Is this to divert from David Norris still being close friends with a man who in his 40's had underage sex with a 15 year old.
    Please, who is the moral relativist here, it is you as you see no problem with it.
    Would you like a 40 year having sex with your 15 year old son or daughter and there is the risk of spreading disease as he was sleeping around with Norris and other underage boys by all accounts.

    It never ceases to amaze me how social conservatives portray themselves as normal, yet when instances of homosexual or female 'promiscuity' come up, the first thing they resort to is the "disease" line.
    The antipathy to feminism – and women – threaded throughout Breivik's document is more than just incidental. The text is peppered with references to the pernicious effects of the "Sex and the City lifestyle, the propagation of sexual immorality (indexed by women's promiscuity), and the "erotic capital" women use to manipulate men. The degeneration of our civilisation is intimately linked to an epidemic of sexually transmitted disease and "emotionalism".
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/jul/27/breivik-anti-feminism


  • #2373
    Wompa1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,288 ✭✭✭Wompa1


    Biggins wrote: »
    While there is merit to some degree in what you say, it should also be mentioned that often politicians write to other countries legal/state heads, using their official paper to ask for clemency for certain people.
    America did it in the case of many a Chinese pro-democracy advocate.
    Britain's politicians does it in many a case of people they view as being treated unjustly.
    ...and so on...

    Where Norris might have gone wrong in this one case, is to allow personal and political life to insert itself into a case that should have been done better - but we can only judge that with now hindsight.

    There's something wrong with the system if it's ok for any politician to use headed paper to make such an appeal without approval. I asked my employer if I could get official headed paper for a complaint against Irish Rail..I was meant to go to Dublin for a conference and I had issues with them..I was told no, It's use is for official matters only. I wonder if Norris asked permission? Using the headed paper would suggest it was an official request which should not be made without the proper approvals.

    I knew that in my case, I think anyone in employment knows they can't use their company logo unless authroized.


  • #2374
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    aas wrote: »
    It should never been done when there's a personal relationship between the two parties, it shows poor judgement.
    No argument there - and in hindsight if this is the case, he should have sought a more independent person to contact those involved, to ask certain aspects to be considered also.
    ...But as I said, its easy to say these things in hindsight.


  • #2375
    Min
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    aas wrote: »
    He's clarified repeatedly that he doesn't support the notion of adults having sex with children, which is why just one page ago we have a user complaining that all he talks about it pederasty.Please stop moving the goalposts. You said that he was wrong to identify age of consent laws as a fuzzy issue. I have pointed out that your logic in defending your judgment leads to absurd notions of morality. Now you're backtracking and trying to change the subject entirely.

    I moved no goalposts, since when was this a topic about homosexuals in Iran?
    You are carrying the goalposts.

    Norris supported his boyfriend looking for leniency when it came to an 40 year old and a 15 year old which is a contradiction to what he said he supported on Morning Ireland.
    Is David carrying the other side of the goalposts?


  • #2376
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Min wrote: »
    ...Norris supported his boyfriend looking for leniency when it came to an 40 year old and a 15 year old which is a contradiction to what he said he supported on Morning Ireland.
    Is David carrying the other side of the goalposts?
    As far as I can tell, the correct version of what you state above is:
    Norris supported his boyfriend while under the ethos of "innocent until guilty" looking for particulars of the case to be examined when it came supposedly (and remember, not proven yet!) to an 40 year old and a 15 year old


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  • #2377
    Mike 1972
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,018 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    later10 wrote: »
    Eh, yes... he used official Oireachtas paper to do so. This has been leaked by the Israeli side.

    The Israeli authorities of course have an absolutly unblemished record when it comes to issuing authentic copies of Irish state documents.


  • #2378
    Wompa1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,288 ✭✭✭Wompa1


    Biggins wrote: »
    No argument there - and in hindsight if this is the case, he should have sought a more independent person to contact those involved, to ask certain aspects to be considered also.
    ...But as I said, its easy to say these things in hindsight.

    Yes but given his background and his intellect, it would have been just as easy for him to realize what he was doing at the time. He was a lecturer too I believe, He's had use of headed paper before and should know the responsibility that comes with it and what it means to use it for communication. You can bet he knew what he was doing was wrong. Lets see his lame response tomorrow, like his lame response about the interview.


  • #2379
    aas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 131 ✭✭aas


    Min wrote: »
    I moved no goalposts, since when was this a topic about homosexuals in Iran?
    You are carrying the goalposts.

    Norris supported his boyfriend looking for leniency when it came to an 40 year old and a 15 year old which is a contradiction to what he said he supported on Morning Ireland.
    Is David carrying the other side of the goalposts?
    Here is where the discussion began:
    Min wrote: »
    This is what David Norris said about the age of consent: ‘The issue of the age of consent was not as black and white as people suggested. Where two people are having sexual relations and one is marginally below the legal age, the judiciary should have the power to examine what he called the principle of consent involved in the relationship'.
    aas wrote: »
    What should he have said? That countries like Germany with a slightly lower age are morally bankrupt?
    Min wrote: »
    The law has an age of consent, Ezra Nawi broke it in the jurisdiction of Israel when he was with David Norris, a man who dismisses the age of consent and one sees no major issue.

    You've tried to argue that it's morally right to always obey the letter of the law in whatever country you find yourself, and I've shown that you're wrong.


  • #2380
    Absurdum
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,444 ✭✭✭Absurdum


    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    The Israeli authorities of course have an absolutly unblemished record when it comes to issuing authentic copies of Irish state documents.

    So why hasn't Norris issued a statement?


  • #2381
    Min
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    Biggins wrote: »
    As far as I can tell, the correct version of what you state above is:

    Yet there are accusations out there that this 15 year old was not the only underage boy that Ezra Nawi had sex with and that David Norris knew of Ezra's sexcapades.
    Well David did or didn't know, it doesn't seem to have bothered Norris as Fionnan Sheehan says they are still close friends.


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  • #2382
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Wompa1 wrote: »
    Yes but given his background and his intellect, it would have been just as easy for him to realize what he was doing at the time.
    With all the brain in the world that a person can possess, would the first person to have that capability and not still make a mistake please stand up and make yourself known!
    Wompa1 wrote: »
    Lets see his lame response tomorrow, like his lame response about the interview.
    Why?
    You have already judged his response, if any, as lame!
    That's a great stupid mentality right here!
    Since when have you gained the power to see into the future - and even better, judge it before the rest of us and sentence it with a verdict?


  • #2383
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    Well thats that then, Norris is done, if a priest did any of this he would be called the devil himself, what a scumbag.


  • #2384
    Absurdum
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,444 ✭✭✭Absurdum


    Biggins wrote: »
    No argument there - and in hindsight if this is the case, he should have sought a more independent person to contact those involved, to ask certain aspects to be considered also.
    ...But as I said, its easy to say these things in hindsight.


    The problem that I have isn't what kind of paper he used or the channels he used to make an appeal, it is the fact that he tried to help his boyfriend out in the first place considering what he was convicted of.

    I wonder what became of the 15 year old boy who had sex with an Israeli Jew? Did Norris give a damn about how he would be treated following the trial? I can't imagine him being treated too well over there.


  • #2385
    Min
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    aas wrote: »
    Here is where the discussion began:

    You've tried to argue that it's morally right to always obey the letter of the law in whatever country you find yourself, and I've shown that you're wrong.

    You have not, you started on about homosexuals in Iran.

    I also said if you don't want to get into trouble in a different country you follow their laws, what gay idiot (idiot not because they are gay) would go to Iran and look for trouble by kissing another man in public?
    Why would one be an idiot and look for trouble?


  • #2386
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Min wrote: »
    Yet there are accusations out there that this 15 year old was not the only underage boy that Ezra Nawi had sex with and that David Norris knew of Ezra's sexcapades...

    Evidence? Proof? ANYTHING!!!

    Delicious irony when you it seems rush to defend priests standing just accused - yet when it comes to Norris amazing appear to switch opinion and now see him tainted as automatically guilty!

    A bit hypocritical?


  • #2387
    Thomas828
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,492 ✭✭✭Thomas828


    I live in the North and I've never heard of this David Norris. Is he any relation to Chuck Norris?


  • #2388
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Absurdum wrote: »
    The problem that I have isn't what kind of paper he used or the channels he used to make an appeal, it is the fact that he tried to help his boyfriend out in the first place considering what he was convicted of.
    Well as most would initially take the word of their partner at the time I would expect, they would by relationship, also wish to help defend their mate as they take the world of said trusted lover.

    Norris at the time was trying to help a person standing accused, not found guilty yet - and we can assume in all probability that Ezra Yizhak might have tried to state to his full time lover that he was innocent?
    So in that light, would anyone expect anything less from a lover than to help defend their partner?
    ...And again, what happened afterwards when the guilty verdict was rendered? Did Norris stay attached to the NOW guilty person? As far as I can tell, he sought to get away from such a person - and rightly so.


  • #2389
    Dilynnio
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 736 ✭✭✭Dilynnio


    I only left Boards for a few weeks and I am dumb founded to believe that this debate is still going on!

    Look at the poll you dumb wits! People want him!

    :rolleyes:


  • #2390
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    Biggins I am disgusted that you are defending this man, if a priests did any of this what would you say?


  • #2391
    Morag
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,427 ✭✭✭Morag


    Min wrote: »
    Yet there are accusations out there that this 15 year old was not the only underage boy that Ezra Nawi had sex with and that David Norris knew of Ezra's sexcapades.
    Well David did or didn't know, it doesn't seem to have bothered Norris as Fionnan Sheehan says they are still close friends.

    Where are you getting the age 15 from?
    Can you link to it please?

    In 1992 the age for consent for homosexuals was 18.

    Can you link to the details of the case?

    Where the letters sent anything to do with that case or with the latter arrests which were when Ezra Nawi was taking part in protests?


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  • #2392
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    Thomas828 wrote: »
    I live in the North and I've never heard of this David Norris. Is he any relation to Chuck Norris?

    Sister.


  • #2393
    Teyla Emmagan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,639 ✭✭✭Teyla Emmagan


    I'm so depressed. I really hope this doesn't finish off Norris' campaign. He may be far from perfect but the rest of the candidates are BL**DY AWFUL.

    I can't believe that with all the brilliant talented people in this country we are left with such a depressing selection of uninspiring old bores to choose from. There isn't one of the rest of them I'd consider voting for.


  • #2394
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    Biggins I am disgusted that you are defending this man, if a priests did any of this what would you say?
    Lets be clear.

    * I'm NOT defending the use of state paper. If thats the case that it was misused, then its another mistake (amid thousands) done by many a politician.

    * I'm not defending the crime that was rendered as having been done

    * I do defend a person to believe what their lover tells them - until its proven in court with a guilty verdict rendered - and subsequently judge said person by their later actions of separating/moving away from the person found guilty. Apparently it appears, what Norris exactly did when his then lover was proven to be possibly lying?

    * If a priest did what this man was found guilty of - I would have the same revulsion for said person as I would do of Ezra.


  • #2395
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    Sharrow wrote: »
    Where are you getting the age 15 from?
    Can you link to it please?

    In 1992 the age for consent for homosexuals was 18.

    Can you link to the details of the case?

    Where the letters sent anything to do with that case or with the latter arrests which were when Ezra Nawi was taking part in protests?
    Front page of the sun says 15


  • #2396
    Min
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    Biggins wrote: »
    Evidence? Proof? ANYTHING!!!

    Delicious irony when you it seems rush to defend priests standing just accused - yet when it comes to Norris amazing appear to switch opinion and now see him tainted as automatically guilty!

    A bit hypocritical?

    I said accusations, didn't say anything about proof.

    I have not defended any priest who did wrong, please search boards.ie and you will see you are very much wrong.

    You do be wondering why anyone goes to church as if all priests were like the abusing priests and there does be outrageaous stuff said on this forum about the church.

    I am amazed you are defending David Norris, because if it was a bishop who was pleading leniency after a priest was after having sex with a 15 year old you would be the first one out condemning it.

    Yet you change the rules for David Norris.


  • #2397
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    Biggins wrote: »
    Lets be clear.

    * I'm NOT defending the use of state paper. If thats the case that it was misused, then its another mistake (amid thousands) done by many a politician.

    * I'm not defending the crime that was rendered as having been done

    * I do defend a person to believe what their lover tells them - until its proven in court with a guilty verdict rendered - and subsequently judge said person by their later actions of separating/moving away from the person found guilty. Apparently it appears, what Norris exactly did when his then lover was proven to be possibly lying?

    * If a priest did what this man was found guilty of - I would have the same revulsion for said person as I would do of Ezra.
    Biggins come on.

    Its not just a little mistake, add up all the things he has done, it cant all be excused away.


  • #2398
    Absurdum
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,444 ✭✭✭Absurdum


    Biggins wrote: »
    Norris at the time was trying to help a person standing accused, not found guilty yet - and we can assume in all probability that Ezra Yizhak might have tried to state to his full time lover that he was innocent?
    So in that light, would anyone expect anything less from a lover than to help defend their partner?
    ...And again, what happened afterwards when the guilty verdict was rendered? Did Norris stay attached to the NOW guilty person? As far as I can tell, he sought to get away from such a person - and rightly so.

    As far as I can tell, he had been found guilty and was awaiting sentence. Hence the appeal for clemency as opposed to an appeal against a miscarriage of justice or whatever.
    SENATOR DAVID NORRIS used official Seanad headed notepaper to write appealing for clemency for his former partner Ezra Tizhak Nawi, it has been claimed.
    The Palestinian activist has been convicted by an Israeli court of having sex with an underage Palestinian teenager in 1992.
    http://www.thejournal.ie/leaked-seanad-letters-show-norris-sought-clemency-for-former-partner-report-190021-Jul2011/?utm_source=shortlink

    Norris is still "close friends" with Nawi according to reports. Getting away from someone like that means just that- not remaining close friends.


  • #2399
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    Biggins come on.

    Its not just a little mistake, add up all the things he has done, it cant all be excused away.
    To be accurate, what ALL the things?
    Absurdum wrote: »
    As far as I can tell, he had been found guilty and was awaiting sentence. Hence the appeal for clemency as opposed to an appeal against a miscarriage of justice or whatever.
    Absolutely fair enough. I'll take your word and trust it.
    I'm assuming (maybe wrongly) that his then lover might have convinced Norris that there was other circumstances that might them have mitigated the supposed case and Norris like a love blind fool, acted upon them?
    (...And they say love is blind)

    End of the day, I feel it would be wrong to condemn a person entirely, their WHOLE lifes actions for a mistake, possible very early error of judgement - when later in life for a long, long time they have only fought for justice and for various victims and oppressed.


  • #2400
    Morag
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,427 ✭✭✭Morag


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    Front page of the sun says 15

    Link?


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  • #2401
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    Sharrow wrote: »
    Link?

    http://i52.tinypic.com/219qkxi.jpg

    But remember it also claimed Liverpool fans pickpocketed their own dead at the Hillsborough disaster.
    And after the recent massacre in Norway it ran a headline "Norways 9-11, Al-Qaeda terrorist attack.


This discussion has been closed.
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