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Gardai acquitted....

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Comments

  • #212
    Predalien
    Closed Accounts Posts: 946 ✭✭✭Predalien


    0O7 wrote: »
    Its not presumed innocent.... its innocent.

    Alot of people are mixing this up, not guilty does not mean "presumed innocent"...
    if you are not guilty, you are innocent in accordance with law, the news cant exactly say "he was found not guilty but probably still did it"

    And alot of the people who dislike guards either cant take authority, are having their activities disrupted by gardai (as already suggested) or had a negative expierence with them.... or all 3

    It's still a presumption of innocence, and yes it's innocent in accordance with the law in that guilt hasn't been proven but it is by no means proof of innocence. The supposed victim could well take a civil case against the guards where the Gardai could be found liable for what happened yet they would still be innocent in the context that criminal liability cannot be proved.

    The OJ Simpson case was a classic example, sure he was found not guilty, which legally was the correct verdict, but he was by no means proven innocent.


  • #213
    Duffy the Vampire Slayer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,385 ✭✭✭Duffy the Vampire Slayer


    Corbin Curved Roundworm wrote: »
    God be with the days a scumbag took his beating and straightened himself/herself out - bleed'n cry baby IMO.

    I'd personally prefer if crimes were dealt with in court, rather then through summary beatings of suspects in their homes. But maybe that's just me.


  • #214
    archer22
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,116 ✭✭✭archer22


    Our country has been destroyed with corruption,probably for the next thousand years...corrupt Goverment,corrupt Bankers,corrupt Regulators,corrupt Church etc etc.I would have thought the Irish would be sick of corruption now.But hell no now they are all over the place clamoring and cheerleading for a corrupt police force....No hope for this godforsaken place,time to emigrate to some decent country I think.


  • #215
    0O7
    Closed Accounts Posts: 229 ✭✭0O7


    archer22 wrote: »
    Our country has been destroyed with corruption,probably for the next thousand years...corrupt Goverment,corrupt Bankers,corrupt Regulators,corrupt Church etc etc.I would have thought the Irish would be sick of corruption now.But hell no now they are all over the place clamoring and cheerleading for a corrupt police force....No hope for this godforsaken place,time to emigrate to some decent country I think.


    i dunno, i think people are cheerleading for the fact some scumbag made an allegation in an attempt to ruin 4 hard working peoples lives and it didnt work.

    this fella was obsiously a criminal, making life awkward for many of his victims... all the gardai did was make it awkward for him.... he cant exactly run free and commit all the crime he wants


  • #216
    Predalien
    Closed Accounts Posts: 946 ✭✭✭Predalien


    7Sins wrote: »
    I can't believe people don't understand the simple notion of being proven not guilty means innocent



    No it doesn't... there's a very good reason why verdicts are delivered as not guilty rather than a verdict of innocence.


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  • #217
    0O7
    Closed Accounts Posts: 229 ✭✭0O7


    Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »
    rather then through summary beatings of suspects in their homes. But maybe that's just me.


    but that only happens with criminals? not gardai, can you show a report of gardai being convicted of this??? ever???


  • #218
    archer22
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,116 ✭✭✭archer22


    0O7 wrote: »
    i dunno, i think people are cheerleading for the fact some scumbag made an allegation in an attempt to ruin 4 hard working peoples lives and it didnt work.

    this fella was obsiously a criminal, making life awkward for many of his victims... all the gardai did was make it awkward for him.... he cant exactly run free and commit all the crime he wants
    Yeah sure yaaaawn :rolleyes:


  • #219
    arybvtcw0eolkf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,608 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    0O7 wrote: »
    i dunno, i think people are cheerleading for the fact some scumbag made an allegation in an attempt to ruin 4 hard working peoples lives and it didnt work.

    this fella was obsiously a criminal, making life awkward for many of his victims... all the gardai did was make it awkward for him.... he cant exactly run free and commit all the crime he wants


    See these bastard's have a huge sense of entitlement, civil rights & liberties - once it applies to them and them only.

    They're no better than stray dogs on the streets.


  • #220
    0O7
    Closed Accounts Posts: 229 ✭✭0O7


    Corbin Curved Roundworm wrote: »

    They're no better than stray dogs on the streets.

    +1 BOOM


  • #221
    7Sins
    Closed Accounts Posts: 526 ✭✭✭7Sins


    Predalien wrote: »
    No it doesn't... there's a very good reason why verdicts are delivered as not guilty rather than a verdict of innocence.

    Doesn't burden of proof lie in the complainants side, it's not up to the accused to prove whether they're innocent or not but the complainant to prove that they're guilty and so you're saying then that there's three possible verdicts? Innocent, guilty or not guilty?


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  • #222
    tayto lover
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 57,077 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    archer22 wrote: »
    Our country has been destroyed with corruption,probably for the next thousand years...corrupt Goverment,corrupt Bankers,corrupt Regulators,corrupt Church etc etc.I would have thought the Irish would be sick of corruption now.But hell no now they are all over the place clamoring and cheerleading for a corrupt police force....No hope for this godforsaken place,time to emigrate to some decent country I think.



    I see you are of the opinion that everyone in those organisations is corrupt. You are not into generalizing at all, are you ?
    Maybe you should leave if you feel like that.


  • #223
    Predalien
    Closed Accounts Posts: 946 ✭✭✭Predalien


    Corbin Curved Roundworm wrote: »
    See these bastard's have a huge sense of entitlement, civil rights & liberties - once it applies to them and them only.

    They're no better than stray dogs on the streets.

    They should be punished appropriately within the criminal justice system, as should gardai who can't do their jobs right who attempt to achieve justice outside the system they are employed to enforce.


  • #224
    0O7
    Closed Accounts Posts: 229 ✭✭0O7


    7Sins wrote: »
    Doesn't burden of proof lie in the complainants side, it's not up to the accused to prove whether they're innocent or not but the complainant to prove that they're guilty and so you're saying then that there's three possible verdicts? Innocent, guilty or not guilty?


    but innocent until proven guilty...
    so unless your proven guilty, your innocent:eek:


  • #225
    7Sins
    Closed Accounts Posts: 526 ✭✭✭7Sins


    0O7 wrote: »
    but innocent until proven guilty...
    so unless your proven guilty, your innocent:eek:


    Wait.....wait.....let me get this clear now for a second, try to get my head around it, so you're saying that if you're not guilty then you're innocent :confused:


  • #226
    0O7
    Closed Accounts Posts: 229 ✭✭0O7


    Predalien wrote: »
    They should be punished appropriately within the criminal justice system, as should gardai who can't do their jobs right who attempt to achieve justice outside the system they are employed to enforce.


    agreed....

    but you dont understand, these people were innocent?????

    Gardai get punished appropriately within the criminal justice system too : look at this dude : http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0526/foleyd.html


  • #227
    7Sins
    Closed Accounts Posts: 526 ✭✭✭7Sins


    0O7 wrote: »
    agreed....

    but you dont understand, these people were innocent?????

    Gardai get punished appropriately within the criminal justice system too : look at this dude : http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0526/foleyd.html

    Yea but he never went to jail


  • #228
    archer22
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,116 ✭✭✭archer22


    tayto lover wrote: »
    I see you are of the opinion that everyone in those organisations is corrupt. You are not into generalizing at all, are you ?
    Maybe you should leave if you feel like that.
    I will,you have the country that you deserve.


  • #229
    0O7
    Closed Accounts Posts: 229 ✭✭0O7


    7Sins wrote: »
    Yea but he never went to jail


    but he was dealt by the criminal justice system,

    sure this fella never went to jail??? : http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=2056169778


  • #230
    AudreyHepburn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,673 ✭✭✭AudreyHepburn


    Predalien wrote: »
    That's true but it's presumed innocent, a jury never proves someone innocent, they merely establish whether there is enough evidence to satisfy a finding of criminal guilt which has the very high threshold of beyond a reasonable doubt. So for example even if members of the jury were say 80% sure someone was guilty they can't convict them as the 20% could constitute a reasonable doubt.

    No it's not. It is innocent until proven guilty, as simple and straight forward as that.

    Except of course if you are a Garda in which case you are guilty before you even get a chance to defend yourself.


  • #231
    7Sins
    Closed Accounts Posts: 526 ✭✭✭7Sins


    0O7 wrote: »
    but he was dealt by the criminal justice system,

    sure this fella never went to jail??? : http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=2056169778

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0527/foleyd.html
    I don't know I'm still having trouble with the guilty not guilty thing


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  • #232
    Predalien
    Closed Accounts Posts: 946 ✭✭✭Predalien


    7Sins wrote: »
    Doesn't burden of proof lie in the complainants side, it's not up to the accused to prove whether they're innocent or not but the complainant to prove that they're guilty and so you're saying then that there's three possible verdicts? Innocent, guilty or not guilty?

    The justice system doesn't allow for a verdict of innocence, yes the burden of proof is on the prosecution to prove guilt (beyond a reasonable doubt). What I'm saying is a not guilty verdict is not a finding of innocence, you can't find someone innocent. A not guilty verdict is a failure to rebut the presumption of innocence.


  • #233
    7Sins
    Closed Accounts Posts: 526 ✭✭✭7Sins


    Predalien wrote: »
    The justice system doesn't allow for a verdict of innocence, yes the burden of proof is on the prosecution to prove guilt (beyond a reasonable doubt). What I'm saying is a not guilty verdict is not a finding of innocence, you can't find someone innocent. A not guilty verdict is a failure to rebut the presumption of innocence.

    Yea but in layman's terms, it means innocent but we can't say that because of legal mumbo jumbo :confused:

    Does it mean then that I can make up a story about anyone and they can never ever be proven innocent in a court of law no matter what because they can only be presumed innocent ;):confused: :pac:


  • #234
    arybvtcw0eolkf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,608 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    Venom wrote: »
    The members of the jury crying seems very strange to me for a case such as this.

    They're probably terrified that Mr.Gaffney will come after them on his release.


  • #235
    epgc3fyqirnbsx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,228 ✭✭✭epgc3fyqirnbsx


    Predalien wrote: »
    The justice system doesn't allow for a verdict of innocence, yes the burden of proof is on the prosecution to prove guilt (beyond a reasonable doubt). What I'm saying is a not guilty verdict is not a finding of innocence, you can't find someone innocent. A not guilty verdict is a failure to rebut the presumption of innocence.

    You have to be trolling

    Ok, I accuse you of trying to rape me. Court finds that you're not guilty, but that doesn't mean you're innocent?
    So, it is sufficient for me to accuse you of rape and then you can carry the tag of 'not being innocent of rape'

    You might think this is a wild example but it is exactly what you are saying. You're purposely misinterpreting 'presumption of innocence' and you hve to be trolling. You must be, it's the cornerstone of the entire justice system ffs


  • #236
    Predalien
    Closed Accounts Posts: 946 ✭✭✭Predalien


    7Sins wrote: »
    Yea but in layman's terms, it means innocent but we can't say that because of legal mumbo jumbo :confused:

    Does it mean then that I can make up a story about anyone and they can never ever be proven innocent in a court of law no matter what because they can only be presumed innocent ;):confused: :pac:

    No as that would be dealt with under defamation law or criminal slander. They'd be able to take you to court to prove your guilt ie. the lie and so they would be proven innocent by your guilt.


  • #237
    7Sins
    Closed Accounts Posts: 526 ✭✭✭7Sins


    Predalien wrote: »
    No as that would be dealt with under defamation law or criminal slander. They'd be able to take you to court to prove your guilt ie. the lie and so they would be proven innocent by your guilt.

    How they gonna know I'm lying, I'd be the victim not the one on trial ;)


  • #238
    usernamegoes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 901 ✭✭✭usernamegoes


    Let me try to set this out.

    You are innocent until proven guilty. The jury's verdict does not find a fact that you definitively didn't commit the crime. They do not declareinnocence.

    You may in fact be guilty but not enough evidence was adduced so it with be silly for the jury to have to declare you didn't do it even if they are 90 per cent sure. So that's why we all enjoy the presumption of innocence.

    And it is a presumption it would be stupid to say everyone is in fact innocent of crimes until they are convicted, that doesn't make sense.


  • #239
    hoff1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 256 ✭✭hoff1


    the majority of guards are good genuine ppl, who do good work particularly in the cities....its like every other profession/group of ppl in life it only takes 1 or 2 to give them a bad name


  • #240
    archer22
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,116 ✭✭✭archer22


    Corbin Curved Roundworm wrote: »
    They're probably terrified that Mr.Gaffney will come after them on his release.
    or maybe the Garda goon squad visited the jury room to help them come to a decision


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  • #241
    Predalien
    Closed Accounts Posts: 946 ✭✭✭Predalien


    Raquel Thousands Bedpan wrote: »
    You have to be trolling

    Ok, I accuse you of trying to rape me. Court finds that you're not guilty, but that doesn't mean you're innocent?
    So, it is sufficient for me to accuse you of rape and then you can carry the tag of 'not being innocent of rape'

    You might think this is a wild example but it is exactly what you are saying. You're purposely misinterpreting 'presumption of innocence' and you hve to be trolling. You must be, it's the cornerstone of the entire justice system ffs

    I'm not trolling and neither am I misinterpreting the presumption of innocence, I'd agree that it is a cornerstone of the justice system. What is clear though is that our justice system is not perfect and that criminal courts make decisions on criminal guilt, they do not make findings on innocence. Oh and I'd be found not guilty of rape.


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