John Waters taking wind outta Kenny's sails?

joseph brand · 29-07-2011 04:28PM

crucamim wrote: »

And the UK government is still not cooperating with investigations into the bombings of Dublin and Monaghan. Will Mr Kenny call them out publically on the matter? Hardly likely. Did Judge Barron accuse the Fine Gael - Labour government in power at that time of complicity in a cover-up? Did any Fine Gael or Labour politician suggest that the UK embassy in Dublin be closed because of the UK refusal to cooperate with the Barron enquiry?

OT!

Ray Palmer · 29-07-2011 04:30PM

John Water is one of my least favorite "personalities". He swings his views around to be outraged no matter what. He equivalent to Joe Duffy but sees himself as some kind of righteous commentator.
Joe Duffy is fully aware it is just the shows format and has had other people doing it before hand and do they same when they fill in.

later12 · 29-07-2011 04:33PM

joseph brand wrote: »

Wrong. Oh it's despicable. :rolleyes:

Enda stood up to the bully, it wasn't exactly heroic, (he didn't have a sword), but he is the first leader to do so.

The Vatican is not the bully. It has not been the bully for quite a long time now. The Catholic church in Ireland today is mostly characterised by senile old priests wearing nappies, attached to walking aids in dreary nursing homes, with greying hangers on still in damp parish houses, down to their last few grey hairs. You could describe their audience in similar terms.

I rarely agree with John Waters, but I get the feeling that he is quite right in summing up those who exaggerate the importance of Kenny's speech, as he says pretending that John Charles McQuaid is still breathing down their necks from Drumcondra.

They need to build a bridge and move on. This is not 1980. Get over it.

SEPT 23 1989 · 29-07-2011 04:34PM

Waters needs a boot in the hole

tricky D · 29-07-2011 04:35PM

At this rate, we'll probably see Waters taking up dancing or bashing people with a crucifix on O'Connell St in the near future.

later12 · 29-07-2011 04:35PM

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Waters needs a boot in the hole

That's how the Catholic Church would deal with dissent in the past itself, isn't it.

plus ça change.

Sully · 29-07-2011 04:37PM

seamus wrote: »

Nobody reallys listens to John Waters. He's a conservative bag of hot air, disenfranchised by modern Ireland, so he believes that everyone else is wrong for changing, he's unshakeably right for maintaining and displaying his opinions without any form of validation or self-correction whatsoever.

Or more correctly, he's the Irish Times's version of Brendan O'Connor; Wordy but ultimately just full of ****e.

Didn't he support Kenny before the election?

mikom · 29-07-2011 04:38PM

Kenny is full of himself these days.
You'd swear to fuck he was leading a charge against the church, when all he is doing is surfing in on a piece of Tsunami driftwood.
A blow-bag, and I believe time will bear this out.

Sully · 29-07-2011 04:46PM

mikom wrote: »

Kenny is full of himself these days.
You'd swear to fuck he was leading a charge against the church, when all he is doing is surfing in on a piece of Tsunami driftwood.
A blow-bag, and I believe time will bear this out.

Wasn't aware he was going around all cocky about it. The media (national and international) went to town on the speech.

Paparazzo · 29-07-2011 04:55PM

The only person who cares about John Waters opinions, is John Waters. He's a bit of a joke to everyone else

Ghost Buster · 29-07-2011 05:01PM

John waters has a most peculiar style of writing. His sentences if read quickly are superficially impressive with big clever words semi poetically constructed. If read slowly though they mean absolutely sweet fanny adams!

Ghost Buster · 29-07-2011 05:03PM

mikom wrote: »

Kenny is full of himself these days.
You'd swear to fuck he was leading a charge against the church, when all he is doing is surfing in on a piece of Tsunami driftwood.
A blow-bag, and I believe time will bear this out.

Apart from mentioning that he has received letters of support about his speech and stance what exactly has he done to garner you criticism?
Or perhaps do you just not like him?

later12 · 29-07-2011 05:03PM

Ghost Buster wrote: »

John waters has a most peculiar style of writing. His sentences if read quickly are superficially impressive with big clever words semi poetically constructed. If read slowly though they mean absolutely sweet fanny adams!

Example?

I presume by saying they mean SFA, what you actually mean is that you disagree with what is being said.

Ghost Buster · 29-07-2011 05:07PM

later10 wrote: »

Example?

I presume by saying they mean SFA, what you actually mean is that you disagree with what is being said.

No I mean they often mean nothing or have little relevance to what he is discussing.
I'll dig out an example.....

Paparazzo · 29-07-2011 05:08PM

later10 wrote: »

Example?

I presume by saying they mean SFA, what you actually mean is that you disagree with what is being said.

Read the bit about Kate French

eyescreamcone · 29-07-2011 05:09PM

The way I look at this subject is as follows:

Priests raped children.

Now you can be on the side of the children, and try to punish those responsible and ensure that it never happens again

Or

You can be on the side of the rapists and try to protect the rapists from public censure (while also protecting the organisation).
You can also speak ill of those on the side of the children.

For me it's a black or white issue
You are either on the side of the raped children and right ...or you are not.

Any snivelling little comments like Waters' and some of the letters to the Times published today ...are in my opinion, all from rapist sympathisers!!!

mikom · 29-07-2011 05:10PM

Sully wrote: »

Wasn't aware he was going around all cocky about it. The media (national and international) went to town on the speech.

Ghost Buster wrote: »

Apart from mentioning that he has received letters of support about his speech and stance what exactly has he done to garner you criticism?
Or perhaps do you just not like him?

The big cocky head on him at the launch of that great "initiative" Slob-bridge.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NznC5Xw-A5o

"Let me tell you a story about a young man that came to me............"

later12 · 29-07-2011 05:16PM

... he tells that story a lot, I actually like it. Even if it isn't true, that is exactly how people feel when they find work after time on the dole. I was unemployed about 2 years ago, and I will never forget how great it felt to get back to work and go to the bank and pay my own bills with money that I earn.

Brendog · 29-07-2011 05:17PM

ZZZZAAAAAAAAAPPP!

Chuck Stone · 29-07-2011 05:20PM

a meteorite of desire plummeting through the Irish zeitgeist
a meteorite of desire plummeting through the Irish zeitgeist
a meteorite of desire plummeting through the Irish zeitgeist
a meteorite of desire plummeting through the Irish zeitgeist
a meteorite of desire plummeting through the Irish zeitgeist
a meteorite of desire plummeting through the Irish zeitgeist

What is read can never be unread.

later12 · 29-07-2011 05:24PM

Elohim wrote: »

Threads seem to need the obligatory GoT reference in them these days

Grand Orthogonality Theorem?

conorhal · 29-07-2011 05:26PM

I agree with Waters, it smacked of political opportunism, the timing was handy too, Kenny could have gotten away with personally closing half a dozen A&E's that day and our clergy obsessed media would have bumped the closures to page 16.
His feeble rant also deflects much of the blame for what happened off the state and onto a timely and convenient scapegoat. Who bent the knee to the bishops? Who abdicated all responsibility for educating children and ensuring their welfare to the church? And finally, who turned a regulatory blind eye when the dogs in the street know what was going on behind the walls of places like Goldenbridge?

There have been some horrific cases lately involving children in state care. There have been stories of routine reports simply copied from the last one and filed with no actual visit taking place to at risk children and stories of children dying in care and going missing from state institutions. Who got fired let alone prosecuted in cases like these?
If people think that the same abdication of responsibility, negligence and neglect that the state was guilty regarding the church run institutions is not still going on, only with regard the HSE this time, well they have another thing (tribunal no doubt) coming.

Elohim · 29-07-2011 05:35PM

later10 wrote: »

Grand Orthogonality Theorem?

Hmmm...I suspect the acronym for that would be GOT and not GoT.

Min · 29-07-2011 05:40PM

It is a sad day when the Taoiseach seems to have been trawling the internet for quotes – any quotes, regardless of context – to undermine the spiritual leader of the vast majority of his own people.

I wonder who he plagiarised from boards.ie.

swiss · 29-07-2011 05:44PM

I read that article, mentally nodding at the assertions I agreed with and rolling my eyes at the ridiculous conclusions he reaches with them.

Lets take the first line, "there was nothing particularly “courageous” about Enda Kenny’s speech". Broadly speaking, I agree with this. Its not particularly brave to ride a crest of opinion after a damning report into an organisation. The speech was a lot of things, namely timely, accurate, reflecting the mood of a nation, accurate and deserved. I would expect the leader of a nation to do this, to articulate from an authoritative position the feeling of a people which has been corroborated and substantiated by several independent reports, and this is what Enda has done.

However, I haven't seen any credible commentator describing it as 'brave'. It didn't have to be. John devotes a significant portion of the rest of his article tearing down this strawman. The power and influence of the church has waned significantly over the past 30 years, something for which I'm very thankful.

That's not to say this speech wasn't significant however. It marks a clear signal to the vatican, as well as the rest of the world in which it was reported that the abuse cover up in which the Church engaged cannot be tolerated and that whatever 'special relationship' might have been once enjoyed can be no more.

Again, the rest of the article manages to hit some nails, but at an odd tangent that does not so much drive it in as leave it hanging with a distinct wobble. When he describes the Dáil speech as "a catch-up speech, compensating for the silence and equivocation that has characterised Irish politics down the years", I can certainly see a point here. But it must be pointed out that previous governments for the last generation have been dominated by Fianna Fáil, and while FG were also a party with some involvement in Government and opposition during this time, I think it would be unfair to castigate Enda for this. I suspect that this speech was delivered when it was because the publication of the Cloyne report gave the Taoiseach enough ammunition to turn his philippic into a blitzkrieg.

Of course the next logical step is to remove unwarranted church influences from the levers of society, given what we now know is the corruption evident within that edifice. It is entirely appropriate that we review the patronage of schools with a view to building and extending a non denominational education system that caters for all the citizenry without religious discrimination. I really don't know where the rest of this article is going, beyond demonstrating a serious case of "getting off the point".

I shan't pass too much comment on the writing style (it really is too easy a target) except just to mention the "atheist ayatollah" reference.... he does know what an ayatollah is, right?

Min · 29-07-2011 05:47PM

A very good article by John Waters even if most choose to ignore or not want to believe what he says.

Sir Gallagher · 29-07-2011 06:07PM

eyescreamcone wrote: »

The way I look at this subject is as follows:

Priests raped children.

Now you can be on the side of the children, and try to punish those responsible and ensure that it never happens again

Or

You can be on the side of the rapists and try to protect the rapists from public censure (while also protecting the organisation).
You can also speak ill of those on the side of the children.

For me it's a black or white issue
You are either on the side of the raped children and right ...or you are not.

Any snivelling little comments like Waters' and some of the letters to the Times published today ...are in my opinion, all from rapist sympathisers!!!

Beware the

RAPIST SYMPATHISERS!!!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEStsLJZhzo

later12 · 29-07-2011 06:12PM

swiss wrote: »

However, I haven't seen any credible commentator describing it as 'brave'.

The Economist called it "outpoken". A letter to Waters's own paper, The Irish Times, called it "tremendous and courageous". The Southern Star newspaper called it "admirable and courageous". The New Ross Standard lauded the Taoiseach's "courage and conviction". Under a headline announcing that "Ireland is no longer the Vatican's loyal follower", TIME Magazine called the speech 'defiant'. You will see similar sentiments expressed on this thread.

It seems perfectly reasonable that Waters should respond to such silly suggestions as these are.

strobe · 29-07-2011 06:29PM

swiss wrote: »

I read that article, mentally nodding at the assertions I agreed with and rolling my eyes at the ridiculous conclusions he reaches with them.

Lets take the first line, "there was nothing particularly “courageous” about Enda Kenny’s speech". Broadly speaking, I agree with this. Its not particularly brave to ride a crest of opinion after a damning report into an organisation. The speech was a lot of things, namely timely, accurate, reflecting the mood of a nation, accurate and deserved. I would expect the leader of a nation to do this, to articulate from an authoritative position the feeling of a people which has been corroborated and substantiated by several independent reports, and this is what Enda has done.

However, I haven't seen any credible commentator describing it as 'brave'. It didn't have to be. John devotes a significant portion of the rest of his article tearing down this strawman. The power and influence of the church has waned significantly over the past 30 years, something for which I'm very thankful.

That's not to say this speech wasn't significant however. It marks a clear signal to the vatican, as well as the rest of the world in which it was reported that the abuse cover up in which the Church engaged cannot be tolerated and that whatever 'special relationship' might have been once enjoyed can be no more.

Again, the rest of the article manages to hit some nails, but at an odd tangent that does not so much drive it in as leave it hanging with a distinct wobble. When he describes the Dáil speech as "a catch-up speech, compensating for the silence and equivocation that has characterised Irish politics down the years", I can certainly see a point here. But it must be pointed out that previous governments for the last generation have been dominated by Fianna Fáil, and while FG were also a party with some involvement in Government and opposition during this time, I think it would be unfair to castigate Enda for this. I suspect that this speech was delivered when it was because the publication of the Cloyne report gave the Taoiseach enough ammunition to turn his philippic into a blitzkrieg.

Of course the next logical step is to remove unwarranted church influences from the levers of society, given what we now know is the corruption evident within that edifice. It is entirely appropriate that we review the patronage of schools with a view to building and extending a non denominational education system that caters for all the citizenry without religious discrimination. I really don't know where the rest of this article is going, beyond demonstrating a serious case of "getting off the point".

I shan't pass too much comment on the writing style (it really is too easy a target) except just to mention the "atheist ayatollah" reference.... he does know what an ayatollah is, right?

Excellent post.

Crann na Beatha · 29-07-2011 06:41PM

This post has been deleted.

John Waters taking wind outta Kenny's sails?

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