John Waters taking wind outta Kenny's sails?

joseph brand · 29-07-2011 03:13PM #1

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2011/0729/1224301562340.html

THERE WAS nothing particularly “courageous” about Enda Kenny’s speech.

. . to undermine the spiritual leader of the vast majority of his own people.

. .. for who now cares to defend the Pope?

But there are many ways of abusing children. You can sit them in desks and subject them to the knowing nonsense of cynics who steal their hope and joy so as to demonstrate repugnance of some derelict or decomposed authority. You can sell them false versions of freedom to make yourself rich. You can fill their heads with nihilism and wonder why they attempt to obliterate themselves with chemicals.

What?

FatherLen · 29-07-2011 03:15PM

politics forum

7Sins · 29-07-2011 03:17PM

Where can I get these chemicals?

Teddy_Picker · 29-07-2011 03:21PM

John Waters- a spokesperson for..well..nobody really.

jjmcclure · 29-07-2011 03:24PM

Waters is a self obsessed eejit! Anyone who needs to cram every word they know into a sentence is trying way to hard!!!

My name is URL · 29-07-2011 03:27PM

That's a terrible article.. even by John Waters standards.

mackg · 29-07-2011 03:27PM

You can fill their heads with nihilism and wonder why they attempt to obliterate themselves with chemicals.

Cause it's a long weekend?

sensibleken · 29-07-2011 03:28PM

What the holy fúck is this shít. Anyone defending the church on this needs a kick in the tits

latenia · 29-07-2011 03:31PM

Any excuse to bring up his Katy French article again:

Katy French was a personification of our fantasies, of our sense of what we were becoming, of how we might unfold ourselves. She was not the only one, but in the immediate past was perhaps the most spectacular light on the skyline, a meteorite of desire plummeting through the Irish zeitgeist… Katy had found a way of being that promised her it could slake all her human cravings. She had manoeuvred herself into a position where everything humanly desirable seemed to be within reach, and was careering forward on the path opening up in front of her. She did not, other than literally, die of whatever it will say on her death certificate. She died of desire, of being utterly human.

seamus · 29-07-2011 03:32PM

Nobody reallys listens to John Waters. He's a conservative bag of hot air, disenfranchised by modern Ireland, so he believes that everyone else is wrong for changing, he's unshakeably right for maintaining and displaying his opinions without any form of validation or self-correction whatsoever.

Or more correctly, he's the Irish Times's version of Brendan O'Connor; Wordy but ultimately just full of ****e.

29-07-2011 03:41PM

Christ I had John Waters, he's the journalisitc equivilent of one of those crazies who stands in the middle of the street screaming about Gods love.

On a similiar John Waters note, I've never forgiven my aunt for the time when I was a teeaer and she informed me that she was representatin John Waters and would I like to meet him. I for one was all excited, who wouldn't be happy to meet the sultan of smut the man behind some of the most insane and entertaing films ever made. Imagine my disappointment when I met the Irish John Waters.

Ash.J.Williams · 29-07-2011 03:44PM

Well he is kinda right!!

There was nothing couragous about kennys speech...

It was easy...cloyne report is relased...bash pope, everyone thinks your great.....easy.

It should have been done years ago.

I'm not saying it wasn't a good thing, but if you wanted to capture the nations goodwill in light of certain hospital incidents recently bashing the vatican is good way to achieve it!!

and it worked!

El_Dangeroso · 29-07-2011 03:45PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Christ I had John Waters, he's the journalisitc equivilent of one of those crazies who stands in the middle of the street screaming about Gods love.

Suits you!

sensibleken · 29-07-2011 03:45PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Christ I had John Waters,
.

ew!

later12 · 29-07-2011 03:50PM

I agree with the general sentiment of Waters's article alright.

Courage implies that Kenny was going against the grain, or that he was landing himself in hot water - in actual fact the Vatican is probably the weakest diplomatic mission in Europe, and Kenny was undeniably saying what everybody else was also saying.

He was very much preaching to the choir - which is perfectly fine - but no, it isn't brave.

Zillah · 29-07-2011 03:58PM

later10 wrote: »

I agree with the general sentiment of Waters's article alright.

Courage implies that Kenny was going against the grain, or that he was landing himself in hot water - in actual fact the Vatican is probably the weakest diplomatic mission in Europe, and Kenny was undeniably saying what everybody else was also saying.

He was very much preaching to the choir - which is perfectly fine - but no, it isn't brave.

You're falling for the strawman. This was never about Kenny being brave, Waters is just trying to set that up as the issue.

The real issue is that the Catholic Church are still not cooperating with investigations and he called them out on it publicly, in a more direct and confrontational tone than any current world leader has done. That was the right thing to do, and no amount of John Waters' wretched ranting will change that.

DublinWriter · 29-07-2011 03:59PM

latenia wrote: »

Any excuse to bring up his Katy French article again:

a meteorite of desire plummeting through the Irish zeitgeist

I felt physically ill reading that.

later12 · 29-07-2011 04:03PM

Zillah wrote: »

You're falling for the strawman. This was never about Kenny being brave, Waters is just trying to set that up as the issue.

I don't care whether it's the issue, but I do think that some have been insinuating that Kenny did something courageous, which would obviously be quite wrong.

It may not be the main issue - but Waters is nevertheless free to respond to it, and us to him.

The real issue is that the Catholic Church are still not cooperating with investigations

With which investigations are they "still" not co-operating?

Ash.J.Williams · 29-07-2011 04:06PM

Zillah wrote: »

You're falling for the strawman. This was never about Kenny being brave, Waters is just trying to set that up as the issue.

The real issue is that the Catholic Church are still not cooperating with investigations and he called them out on it publicly, in a more direct and confrontational tone than any current world leader has done. That was the right thing to do, and no amount of John Waters' wretched ranting will change that.

our previous leaders were cowardly (ahern is freakishly involved in protecting the church) moreso than Enda was brave!

crucamim · 29-07-2011 04:07PM

There are two sides to the "separation of State and Church" coin.

One side of the coin is that clergy should not use their positions as clergy to try to influence government policy - although individual clergymen, who are citizens of the country, have as much right as any other citizen to express their opinions as to how their country should be governed. The other side of the coin is that politicians do not use their political positions to influence the policy of any church.

Mr Enda Kenny has used his position as Prime Minister to interfere in the internal affairs of the RC Church. ie. His comments about Vatican refusal to approve an internal RC document about child protection - a document intended for the RC church in the whole of Ireland. i.e. His interference included an interference in the internal affairs of the RC Church in a part of the UK. His behaviour is all the more provocative because he is Prime Minister of a State which has failed to take effective action about child protection. That fact leads me to suspect that his behaviour was intended to distract attention from certain broken promises about an hospital in Roscommon.

Mr Kenny has also used his position as Prime Minister to launch an attack on the world-wide and traditional RC policy that its doctrines are not determined by public opinion.

Over the years many Eire politicians have interfered in the internal affairs of the RC Church in Eire. Garret Fitzgerald, Eamon Gilmore, Conor Cruise O'Brien, Dr Noel Browne, Jim Kemmy, Justin Keating, Senator David Norris, Jack McQuillan, Monica Barnes, Nuala Fennell, Thomas MacGiolla.

Worse, much worse, many Eire politicians and their supporters have interfered in the internal affairs of the RC Church in Northern Ireland - Paddy Cooney, Garret Fitzgerald, Mrs Joan Fitzgerald, Nuala Fennell, Gemma Hussey, Mrs Terry Kelly, Austin Deasy, Eamon Dunphy, John Bruton, Frank Cluskey, Francis De Rossa, Paddy Harte, Senator John Murphy, Ruari Quinn, Dick Spring, Dr Conor Cruise O'Brien, Thomas MacGiolla, Jim Kemmy and Mary Harney. Senator David Norris has not interfered in the internal affairs of the RC Church in Northern Ireland.

Just recently we had a Mr Micheal McCarthy TD of the Eire Labour Party thundering in the parliament of Eire about the Vatican interfering in the affairs of "this country". More recently (27 July 2011) the same Mr McCarthy was interfering in the affairs of many foreign states on the matter of aid to the Horn of Africa. As a citizen of the UK and subject of her Majesty, Queen Elizabeth 2nd, I resent this socialist, foreign politican from West Cork trying to badger the government of the UK into being generous with my hard earned money. It would appear that consistency is not one of Mr McCarthy's strong points - a weakness he shares with many other Eirefolk.

Logical Fallacy · 29-07-2011 04:07PM

Nihilism, Katy French, Zeitgeist.

Pick the odd one out.

Callan57 · 29-07-2011 04:09PM

later10 wrote: »

I agree with the general sentiment of Waters's article alright.

Courage implies that Kenny was going against the grain, or that he was landing himself in hot water - in actual fact the Vatican is probably the weakest diplomatic mission in Europe, and Kenny was undeniably saying what everybody else was also saying.

He was very much preaching to the choir - which is perfectly fine - but no, it isn't brave.

So easy ... just a pity no other politician did it in the last 20 years then isn't it?
:mad:

later12 · 29-07-2011 04:13PM

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

Nihilism, Katy French, Zeitgeist.

Pick the odd one out.

Nihilism.

Katy French was the Zeitgeist. The Celtic Tiger's answer to Kathleen Ni Houlihan

Dangerous Man · 29-07-2011 04:14PM

'a meteorite of desire plummeting through the Irish zeitgeist'

I got sick in my mouth when I read that - or maybe it was because I tried to actuallly understand / visualize it and my body just lost it a little...
What is a meterorite of desire? And how does it plummet through a Zeitgeist? Dunce.

Is this guy still living in Dublin? Get out Waters - you're not welcome there. Go back to your rat hole.

later12 · 29-07-2011 04:17PM

Callan57 wrote: »

So easy ... just a pity no other politician did it in the last 20 years then isn't it?
:mad:

No other politician? If you said no other Taoiseach it might have been true.

Already the speech has assumed rather epic proportions.

Executive Steve · 29-07-2011 04:17PM

seamus wrote: »

Or more correctly, he's the Irish Times's version of Brendan O'Connor; Wordy but ultimately just full of ****e.

Ah here now, no need for that... Can't believe I'm sticking up for John Waters AND Brendan O'Connor here but really, that's quite unfair on both of them...

As for the Katy French thing, he's quite correct IMO.

crucamim · 29-07-2011 04:18PM

Zillah wrote: »

The real issue is that the Catholic Church are still not cooperating with investigations and he called them out on it publicly, in a more direct and confrontational tone than any current world leader has done.

And the UK government is still not cooperating with investigations into the bombings of Dublin and Monaghan. Will Mr Kenny call them out publically on the matter? Hardly likely. Did Judge Barron accuse the Fine Gael - Labour government in power at that time of complicity in a cover-up? Did any Fine Gael or Labour politician suggest that the UK embassy in Dublin be closed because of the UK refusal to cooperate with the Barron enquiry?

later12 · 29-07-2011 04:19PM

crucamim wrote: »

And the UK government is still not cooperating with investigations into the bombings of Dublin and Monaghan. Will Mr Kenny call them out publically on the matter? Hardly likely. Did Judge Barron accuse the Fine Gael - Labour government in power at that time of complicity in a cover-up? Did any Fine Gael or Labour politician suggest that the UK embassy in Dublin be closed because to UK refusal to cooperate with the Barron enquiry?

Calm yourself young chap.

That isn't populist just yet.

Executive Steve · 29-07-2011 04:19PM

later10 wrote: »

Nihilism.

Katy French was the Zeitgeist. The Celtic Tiger's answer to Kathleen Ni Houlihan

Ireland's Diana, and yes, that's a very perceptive comparison there with Cathleen Ni Houlihan, she was a true daughter of the Irish Republic, first amongst equals.

later12 · 29-07-2011 04:20PM

Executive Steve wrote: »

Ireland's Diana

I think that was Jerry Ryan.

joseph brand · 29-07-2011 04:24PM

later10 wrote: »

I don't care whether it's the issue, but I do think that some have been insinuating that Kenny did something courageous, which would obviously be quite wrong.

It may not be the main issue - but Waters is nevertheless free to respond to it, and us to him.

With which investigations are they "still" not co-operating?

Wrong. Oh it's despicable. :rolleyes:

Enda stood up to the bully, it wasn't exactly heroic, (he didn't have a sword), but he is the first leader to do so. That's what is important. A sea of change. The best thing about his speech is the fact that he speaks on behalf of most people on this Island. Who could reasonably argue with what he had to say? He had the whole Dail (which was half empty unfortunately) on his side.

Just can't understand why John would pull himself away talking to his kettle in a condescending manner, wearing Y-fronts, to type up this unwanted garbage.

John Waters taking wind outta Kenny's sails?

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