AL Cadet programme

basill · 21-07-2011 6:32pm

Although I've heard a lot of explainations on why EI are not impressed with DE applicants can anybody explain the exact areas that people are found wanting? Is it sim checks? Tech knowledge? General ATPL Theory type knowledge or just personality?

I was chatting to one of the recruiters not so long ago at work. Whilst many are falling down on the psychometrics others are having poor sim sessions. Basic skills like pitch and power appear wanting. Others aren't showing any improvement during the sim session. It varies across the board.

GKJK · 22-07-2011 1:49pm

basill wrote: »

I was chatting to one of the recruiters not so long ago at work. Whilst many are falling down on the psychometrics others are having poor sim sessions. Basic skills like pitch and power appear wanting. Others aren't showing any improvement during the sim session. It varies across the board.

Well I've heard that. Seems some of the "sausage factories" skip over the "effects of control" chapter when getting guys going. The perils of in-house testing!

Does the psyco test just test your mental maths skills and verbal reasoning etc or is it one of those "shapes and lines" type deals?

high ho · 23-07-2011 10:02pm

what exactly are they looking for in psyco tests? personallity traits etc. it seems to me like it is a bit of a lottery as to if you tick the right boxes or not..

GKJK · 23-07-2011 10:32pm

high ho wrote: »

what exactly are they looking for in psyco tests? personallity traits etc. it seems to me like it is a bit of a lottery as to if you tick the right boxes or not..

Psycometric testing is testing maths skills and mental dexterity. You get a number of sums like 21 x 5 to start and then 22 x 0.8 etc. Can get tricky without a calculator. Then there might be a few verbal or spacial reasoning questions. It takes a few hours to do so it is a mentally draining process. They just want to see how well you think on your feet.

Any personality matters are sussed at interview, psycometric testing is trying to see what basic natural intelligence you have

high ho · 23-07-2011 10:41pm

GKJK wrote: »

high ho wrote: »

what exactly are they looking for in psyco tests? personallity traits etc. it seems to me like it is a bit of a lottery as to if you tick the right boxes or not..

Psycometric testing is testing maths skills and mental dexterity. You get a number of sums like 21 x 5 to start and then 22 x 0.8 etc. Can get tricky without a calculator. Then there might be a few verbal or spacial reasoning questions. It takes a few hours to do so it is a mentally draining process. They just want to see how well you think on your feet.

Any personality matters are sussed at interview, psycometric testing is trying to see what basic natural intelligence you have

Not always, psyco tests are sometimes used to see what your comm and leadership skills are like swell as personality traits.... Does anyone on here know what ei are looking for as regards the above..

GKJK · 25-07-2011 1:28am

high ho wrote: »

Not always, psyco tests are sometimes used to see what your comm and leadership skills are like swell as personality traits.... Does anyone on here know what ei are looking for as regards the above..

Yes but the airline process uses psycometrics for your metal dexterity and then in and around the 2nd or 3rd interview phase they do team building to see what your leadership and interpersonal skills are like. Your personality is being tested all the time in the process. It is tested on day one when they chat with you and then it is tested under pressure in the team building and group exercise. Personality tests on paper are usually....crap and a waste of time and airlines are aware of this. They want to see your personality in context not on paper

basill · 25-07-2011 2:28pm

Does the psyco test just test your mental maths skills and verbal reasoning etc or is it one of those "shapes and lines" type deals?

In addition to what the other posters have said there was also a long winded personality questionnaire. From memory it had hundreds of questions and you graded each on a 10 point scale from "strongly agree" to "strongly disagree". From my limited knowledge of how these things work there are also grading questions throughout which are designed to catch people out that might decided to try and fib.

Each company will have a "profile" for a candidate and I am afraid if you don't fit within those norms then it will go against you.

xflyer · 25-07-2011 2:36pm

Each company will have a "profile" for a candidate and I am afraid if you don't fit within those norms then it will go against you.

Exactly, if you don't fit the profile, soon a PFO letter falls through your letterbox. Space shuttle astronaut or office cleaner. It doesn't matter.

Hi 5 · 25-07-2011 10:15pm

cant wait to be an EI pilot :cool:

donvito99 · 28-07-2011 11:56pm

enjoy:D

lintdrummer · 29-07-2011 12:11am

Exciting stuff indeed! I'd say the volume of applications for this will be immense. Any further details yet?

bladeruner · 29-07-2011 1:11am

emmettogara wrote: »

Exciting stuff indeed! I'd say the volume of applications for this will be immense. Any further details yet?

With unemployment at 15% , I reckon every man and his dog will apply for it.
They will need a warehouse to process applications.
I wonder will they make speaking some Irish a pre-requisite to weed out the johnny foreigners ?
It would probably weed out most Irish people as well !

smellslikeshoes · 29-07-2011 2:53am

bladeruner wrote: »

With unemployment at 15% , I reckon every man and his dog will apply for it.
They will need a warehouse to process applications.
I wonder will they make speaking some Irish a pre-requisite to weed out the johnny foreigners ?
It would probably weed out most Irish people as well !

I'm still sceptical that when the details of it emerge that it will be the golden ticket some people here think it will be.
When OAA are still filling up 85K sterling courses for other airlines I just can't see Shamrock doing anything too far removed.

alan85 · 29-07-2011 10:14am

Could that video be a leak? I imagine it wasn't meant to be released without an official announcement by AL? That, or could this be a promo of cadetships in years past? The first A321 was '98 and A320 was '00. I think the last cadetships were around that time were they not? Is it possible that video is from back then?

Delta Kilo · 29-07-2011 10:51am

Doubt its a leak per se, it looks like it was uploaded by a video/marketing company, more than likely the one that AL contracted to market the cadetship. They probably werent expecting people to be searching aer lingus cadetship in youtube!

It looks like a recent video, I think one of the scenes is filmed in T2 so I doubt its from the late 90s.

Also, smellslikeshoes, if you read the thread you will notice that AL pilots have posted and explained why AL prefer training their own cadets (they arent happy with the standard of pilots being churned out of the big expensive schools, many of them not progressing well in the line training etc), not to mention the shortage of pilots within the airline.

Paying to train a cadet is worthwhile to an airline when they can pick the cream of the crop and subsequently bond them to the airline for a number of years, a very worthwhile investment in the long run.

Considering an AL aircraft engine could suffer a birdstrike this evening and have to undergo a Shop Visit costing in excess €1m, getting their own tailor made pilot with AL mannerisms ingrained in him from day one for ~€50-€70k, it makes a lot of sense to go down that road. In other words, the cost is not as significant as it seams to a large airline.

xflyer · 29-07-2011 11:56am

Guys, no way is that a recent video. Clearly it was made in and around 2000/2001 probably as part of a recruitment campaign. First off, EI sent cadets to WMU from about 1998 which is where Diarmuid O'Brien did his training. You can't imagine the fresh faced Diarmuid learned to fly ten years ago when he was 12.

The last batch of cadets were sent to FTE in Jerez around 2001 but there were no jobs for them when they graduated. So the people excitedly watching that video at the time and who were selected had to wait years before Aer Lingus called them back.

I'm with smelllikeshoes on this one. This won't be a golden ticket some of you seem to think it is. For Aer Lingus to pay the full cost would make them almost unique in the business. For them to require Irish would be just laughable. They're not a public service. They are a business.

The video is old, Diarmuid and Claire no doubt are Captains by now. Although given the glacial promotion prospects in EI, maybe not!

Jim236 · 29-07-2011 12:08pm

xflyer wrote: »

Guys, no way is that a recent video. Clearly it was made in and around 2000/2001 probably as part of a recruitment campaign. First off, EI sent cadets to WMU from about 1998 which is where Diarmuid O'Brien did his training. You can't imagine the fresh faced Diarmuid learned to fly ten years ago when he was 12.

Half the video is filmed with T2 in the background, so its obviously only been filmed in the last few months...

Even at the very start you can see the new Aer Lingus signs on Hangar 6.

donvito99 · 29-07-2011 12:09pm

alan85 wrote: »

Could that video be a leak? I imagine it wasn't meant to be released without an official announcement by AL? That, or could this be a promo of cadetships in years past? The first A321 was '98 and A320 was '00. I think the last cadetships were around that time were they not? Is it possible that video is from back then?

Terminal 2 in background in one shot

MoeJay · 29-07-2011 12:25pm

It's a brand new video. A320 sim is pictured in the simtech building; T2 all over the place; Hangar 6....need I go on?

Get your applications ready...

GKJK · 29-07-2011 12:28pm

Looking at this thread with a sorta of...wider spec as to prespective pilots it is clear to see the actual pilots...the people currently battling through the training and the dreamers. Anybody who thinks that every man and his dog will pile into this is deluding themselves. Most people wouldnt be able to get a loan to fund 1 flying lesson at the moment never mind a cadetship!
When the ad goes out it will almost certainly show an approx cost that will range from anywhere round 50-100k and even at that it will most likely be the old integrated trick of "minimum hours" so on average you may wanna add an extra 20% hours on to that. Many of the airlines that are running cadetships only fund the MCC - Type Rating/Line Training phase and EI could well do the same! It could well be the case that of the vaunted 1000s of applications only a few 100 or less will be able to actually afford it. You also may have a lot of guys with about 100 hours modular work done applying and their costs will be very much reduced. I recently picked an EI skipper's brains on this and he said that it is not beyond the beyond that EI would take 20 or so guys with PPLs and just launch them into atpls or even just take people with 100PIC and atpls and go to CPL and IR. EI's shortage is getting worse and a lot of the senior pilots dont seem to think the 12-18 months a cadetship will take is quick enough to stop a serious shortage occuring. With the well known 5:1 roster a lot of guys are trying to get out and go East to make their fortune and that is creating a vicious circle. The Skipper I spoke to said that unless they have 50+ new FOs coming on line(with the natural command bump ups) by next summer strikes and mass exodus is a very real possibility! DE pilots dont seem to be cutting it on the most part, but from what I hear EI wont be just picking guys off the street for now atleast. It seems they may look at taking "private pilots" and making them into "airline pilots". He was clear in what he said "There will be no 0 to hero wonders" and EI will want this whole thing to progress quickly when it starts rolling. I have heard a lot of people from EI talk about this and a lot of people in the wider aviation community, the consistant line seems to be that EI dont want to go 0 - fatpl, they want people with an aviation background that they can mould.

bladeruner · 29-07-2011 12:32pm

xflyer wrote: »

I'm with smelllikeshoes on this one. This won't be a golden ticket some of you seem to think it is. For Aer Lingus to pay the full cost would make them almost unique in the business. For them to require Irish would be just laughable. They're not a public service. They are a business.

The video is old, Diarmuid and Claire no doubt are Captains by now. Although given the glacial promotion prospects in EI, maybe not!

I doubt it will be fully paid for , but they could have partial cost loans pre-approved by banks for a lucky few.
It's all speculation til we hear the announcement.
I thought they could consider Irish as many cadet classes had 20/30% Uk or Eu national.
However I have been told that EI has lost quite a few Uk born pilots to BA/virgin/monarch etc
Irish born people tend to want to stay living here (despite the taxes)
Putting in the cupla focal as a requirement sounds like good business sense to me.

Finally several of the cadets let go after sept 11 2001 are now captains apparently.

directPEPOD · 29-07-2011 12:40pm

Note the video states that you can go 'straight from school' and they 'provide the training for you'. So the guy who said no zero-to-heroes better get ready to have egg in his face..

pepod

bladeruner · 29-07-2011 12:43pm

GKJK wrote: »

Looking at this thread with a sorta of...wider spec as to prespective pilots it is clear to see the actual pilots...the people currently battling through the training and the dreamers. Anybody who thinks that every man and his dog will pile into this is deluding themselves. Most people wouldnt be able to get a loan to fund 1 flying lesson at the moment never mind a cadetship!
When the ad goes out it will almost certainly show an approx cost that will range from anywhere round 50-100k and even at that it will most likely be the old integrated trick of "minimum hours" so on average you may wanna add an extra 20% hours on to that. Many of the airlines that are running cadetships only fund the MCC - Type Rating/Line Training phase and EI could well do the same! It could well be the case that of the vaunted 1000s of applications only a few 100 or less will be able to actually afford it. You also may have a lot of guys with about 100 hours modular work done applying and their costs will be very much reduced. I recently picked an EI skipper's brains on this and he said that it is not beyond the beyond that EI would take 20 or so guys with PPLs and just launch them into atpls or even just take people with 100PIC and atpls and go to CPL and IR. EI's shortage is getting worse and a lot of the senior pilots dont seem to think the 12-18 months a cadetship will take is quick enough to stop a serious shortage occuring. With the well known 5:1 roster a lot of guys are trying to get out and go East to make their fortune and that is creating a vicious circle. The Skipper I spoke to said that unless they have 50+ new FOs coming on line(with the natural command bump ups) by next summer strikes and mass exodus is a very real possibility! DE pilots dont seem to be cutting it on the most part, but from what I hear EI wont be just picking guys off the street for now atleast. It seems they may look at taking "private pilots" and making them into "airline pilots". He was clear in what he said "There will be no 0 to hero wonders" and EI will want this whole thing to progress quickly when it starts rolling. I have heard a lot of people from EI talk about this and a lot of people in the wider aviation community, the consistant line seems to be that EI dont want to go 0 - fatpl, they want people with an aviation background that they can mould.

Unless it was the head if training you were talking to you should probably watch the video again.

GKJK · 29-07-2011 1:00pm

bladeruner wrote: »

Unless it was the head if training you were talking to you should probably watch the video again.

That guy went through the old cadetship and he even said it! The industry has changed, you pay for what you get now. And I dont see many kids straight outta school with 50k in their pocket these days.....even if a loan is secured with EI's guarantee the bank and EI will want a deposit of some sort up front and that could be the bones of 20-30k and that will be the stumbling block! Most airlines now are careful about putting an 18/19 yo in a the right seat of an airliner and even in the old days it was VERY rare to get in straight from school. This guy must have had a good LC.
He looks very young however and 10 years on you would expect him to be a captain...maybe he's blessed with baby faced looks....or he's an actor!:cool: I suggest that people research the Cityjet, Easy and Flybe cadetship schemes to see what these things are really like

Jim236 · 29-07-2011 1:07pm

GKJK wrote: »

That guy went through the old cadetship and he even said it! The industry has changed, you pay for what you get now. And I dont see many kids straight outta school with 50k in their pocket these days.....even if a loan is secured with EI's guarantee the bank and EI will want a deposit of some sort up front and that could be the bones of 20-30k and that will be the stumbling block! Most airlines now are careful about putting an 18/19 yo in a the right seat of an airliner and even in the old days it was VERY rare to get in straight from school. This guy must have had a good LC.
He looks very young however and 10 years on you would expect him to be a captain...maybe he's blessed with baby faced looks....or he's an actor!:cool: I suggest that people research the Cityjet, Easy and Flybe cadetship schemes to see what these things are really like

Well the timing of this announcement is one hell of a coincidence then, being just weeks before the Leaving Cert results are out...

Btw everyone keep a look out in the Sunday Independent, Sunday Times etc as apparently there is an announcement due over the weekend.

directPEPOD · 29-07-2011 1:09pm

People forget that cadet classes around the millenium were made redundant due 9/11 and recalled around 2005 I believe. He may only have 5 or 6 years on the line which would make him 25 or 26 at the youngest. I believe cadets were sent to Michigan in 1999/2000 which would be approximately the right timeframe.

"Most airlines now are careful about putting an 18/19 yo..."

Once again, in the video:

"Go straight from school"

Aer Lingus seem to be appealing to school leavers not being careful about it as you say.

This video is like the verbal reasoning test - getting information out of it without drawing your own conclusions or whatever you've heard. If you can't see this then ..

GKJK · 29-07-2011 1:18pm

Jim236 wrote: »

Well the timing of this announcement is one hell of a coincidence then, being just weeks before the Leaving Cert results are out...

Btw everyone keep a look out in the Sunday Independent, Sunday Times etc as apparently there is an announcement due over the weekend.

Well and good are they handing out cheques for 30k with the LC results now? If so i may re-sit!:D

I not disputing that the video is genuine I'm just saying that there is no Willy Wonka situation here, the people who pass selection will have to have the dough to pay a security desposit or maybe even the full whack! All I'm saying is that people shouldnt get their hopes up that this is a dream ticket! Who knows it may be...but if it is....either EI are stupid or saintly...we shall reserve judgement...just dont be surpised if they do exactly what the rest do. My cousin applied to cityjet with a PPL from atlantic and was taken on...everyone on the course had a ppl and some had 5 or more atpls. Being straight from school with no qualifications but the LC on your back may not perclude you, but if there are guys with qualifications who meet the grade I'm afraid they maybe scoot in. Dont hang your hat on what a guy says in a video, EI are trying to get the max applications. This video is a marketing tool and dont forget that!

GKJK · 29-07-2011 1:24pm

directPEPOD wrote: »

People forget that cadet classes around the millenium were made redundant due 9/11 and recalled around 2005 I believe. He may only have 5 or 6 years on the line which would make him 25 or 26 at the youngest. I believe cadets were sent to Michigan in 1999/2000 which would be approximately the right timeframe.

"Most airlines now are careful about putting an 18/19 yo..."

Once again, in the video:

"Go straight from school"

Aer Lingus seem to be appealing to school leavers not being careful about it as you say.

This video is like the verbal reasoning test - getting information out of it without drawing your own conclusions or whatever you've heard. If you can't see this then ..

So if he was 17/18 in 2000 he would be close to 30 now...you seem to suggest he was put in cryogenics when he was laid off....

A jet airline will rarely have an 18 yo flying with them...full stop...sometimes may happen but is rare.

And I can tell you are inexperianced in the industry.....so il tell you airlines BS on and on in recruitment drives but in the end they always do the same thing...it's like the flight schools

Jim236 · 29-07-2011 1:28pm

GKJK wrote: »

Well and good are they handing out cheques for 30k with the LC results now? If so i may re-sit!:D

I not disputing that the video is genuine I'm just saying that there is no Willy Wonka situation here, the people who pass selection will have to have the dough to pay a security desposit or maybe even the full whack! All I'm saying is that people shouldnt get their hopes up that this is a dream ticket! Who knows it may be...but if it is....either EI are stupid or saintly...we shall reserve judgement...just dont be surpised if they do exactly what the rest do. My cousin applied to cityjet with a PPL from atlantic and was taken on...everyone on the course had a ppl and some had 5 or more atpls. Being straight from school with no qualifications but the LC on your back may not perclude you, but if there are guys with qualifications who meet the grade I'm afraid they maybe scoot in. Dont hang your hat on what a guy says in a video, EI are trying to get the max applications. This video is a marketing tool and dont forget that!

GKJK with all due respect, you've been contradicting yourself throughout this thread based on what "your source" has said to you.

You're right, we don't know any details yet, but the timing of this announcement and the wording of the dialogue in the video is no coincidence. They may not be looking for people straight out of school, but I find it hard to believe they'd be looking for people who already have their PPLs, ATPLs etc with hundreds of hours as you're trying to claim.

basill · 29-07-2011 1:29pm

Thanks to all of the armchair experts for enlightening to us. Perhaps if you have no factual information then why bother speculating and wasting bandwidth and the time of people that might come onto these fora for information.

As a current serving pilot lets correct some of the rubbish.

- both pilots featured in the video are current serving. The female co-pilot joined recently under the latest recruitment drive.
- Neither are captains.
- AL is a seniority based and union represented airline. Any comparisons from the armchair experts to Ryanair should cease there.
- The quickest commands have been those that have either joined as DEC into BFS or LGW or have transferred from DUB to those bases and gotten into the LHS.
- A DUB or ORK command is on average 10-12 years at the earliest. The average age of captains now is roughly 39 years. The pension retirement age is 60 years. Expect ICAO to push this out further. It is unclear what the ramifications will be for commands in DUB and ORK as the issue is clouded somewhat not only by whether we expand but by complex issues surrounding the pension and the tax implications thereof.
- The "normal" progression within the company is RHS on the A320 then after approximately 6-8 years shifting to the RHS of the A330. Many people decide to stay on this fleet for lifestyle reasons even though they may be eligible for command on the A320. Others jump ship at the earliest opportunity and take up a A320 command. To judge a pilots ability or rank by their "baby faces" is ludicrous.

AL Cadet programme

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