Vatican "surprised", "disappointed" by "excessive reactions", recalls

Richard Hillman · 25-07-2011 02:25PM

What an insult to the victims

Crazy Horse 6 wrote: »

Don't like Enda or his blue shirt scum party at all but he needs to stick to his guns here.

"Scum"

Guill · 25-07-2011 02:26PM

I'll excessive reactions you in a minute Mr.

pablomakaveli · 25-07-2011 02:27PM

Teclo wrote: »

I can't say that I blame them. After 1600 years trying to civilize us they finally see us for what we are - a rotten bunch of ignorant hypocrites always portraying ourselves as victims.

Tbh our ancestors were more civilized before the catholic Church came here.

steve9859 · 25-07-2011 02:27PM

I never posted on this subject before, but I just don't have the words for this!! 'excessive reaction'???? Do they live in a parallel universe or something?!? The church conspires to cover up multiple counts of one of the most heinous and godforsaken crimes that one can commit, then accuses others of being excessive?!? Taking the cardinals out into St Peters Square and stoning them wouldn't be excessive! Unbelievable!

TouchingVirus · 25-07-2011 02:27PM

Teclo wrote: »

I can't say that I blame them. After 1600 years trying to civilize us they finally see us for what we are - a rotten bunch of ignorant hypocrites always portraying ourselves as victims.

Yeah, you're right. There's nothing like a bit of child rape to show us what's what and civilise us :rolleyes:

Unlike the Vatican, the government has at least tried to make amends and has acknowledged its own significant failures.

positron · 25-07-2011 02:30PM

Ah now, careful on how you react to this - especially watch out for those excessive reactions, lest not hurt those innocent pedophile priests and their demented but innocent supporters.

awww...!

The King of Moo · 25-07-2011 02:30PM

Teclo wrote: »

Obviously not. But if we were to expel everyone in the country who failed to stop child abuse the place would very soon become empty. Among the first to go would be people like Kenny who had the opportunity to introduce mandatory reporting of all child abuse while in government in the 90's but apparently decided against it. Downplaying the rape and torture of children, as some might say.

There's lots of people who could be indirectly blamed, but the people who knew what was going on and deliberately covered it up and assisted the perpetrators should all be in jail.

--Kaiser-- · 25-07-2011 02:31PM

They should take all the property owned by the Catholic Church and use it to recompense the victims of abuse

Biggins · 25-07-2011 02:32PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

WOW. :eek:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/26/world/europe/26church.html?_r=1

Am I the only one who is surprised by this? I sincerely hope Enda Kenny stands his ground, no matter what is thrown in his face by these "holy" people. The people of Ireland, Enda, religious or otherwise, stand with you.

Sickening. Absolutely mind bogglingly sickening.

Two words - fcuk 'em!

My name is URL · 25-07-2011 02:32PM

I reckon that they believe this move will cause hysteria amongst mass-goers, and make the government reconsider its position on the matter. They really have no clue as to how bad their reputation is in this country.. even the very religious are highly critical of the Vaticans role in what happened here.

Wolfe Tone · 25-07-2011 02:35PM

The-Rigger wrote: »

I'd advocate it.

Really? If so you are a disgrace

ScumLord · 25-07-2011 02:36PM

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

They should take all the property owned by the Catholic Church and use it to recompense the victims of abuse

I really don't see how the government would have any other choice. If the church don't pay up and mend their ways the government will have to take what's owed to the victims.

pablomakaveli · 25-07-2011 02:36PM

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

They should take all the property owned by the Catholic Church and use it to recompense the victims of abuse

The religious orders have made millions selling off properties over the last few years and yet most of them have made little contribution to the compensation fund for the victims.

stimpson · 25-07-2011 02:37PM

Liam Byrne wrote: »

An "excessive" reaction would have been to - say - kick out all priests and clergy, or to post guards on every priest and bishop (the reminder is required that some of them are decent people).

Some of us would call it a good start.

If any clergy were truly good people they would have left the church long ago.

TouchingVirus · 25-07-2011 02:37PM

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

They should take all the property owned by the Catholic Church and use it to recompense the victims of abuse

^--- This!

And if the Irish Catholic Church are having trouble with that then they should try talking to that deposit-only bank the Vatican and asking them to assist. After all, it was the Vatican who encouraged them to cover it all up, told them it was only canon law they need obey etc.

If any of you have ever been to the Vatican you'll know they can well afford any amount of compensation for the victims.

And yet, here they are, essentially telling the people of Ireland to relax, no need for overreactions.

hatrickpatrick · 25-07-2011 02:37PM

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

They should take all the property owned by the Catholic Church and use it to recompense the victims of abuse

In all seriousness, are there any grounds on which the Criminal Assets bureau COULD go after them if required?

checkyabadself · 25-07-2011 02:39PM

I'm not at all surprised by that reaction. The Vatican's prime role is the self preservation of itself and its control over grooming young children to believe its slant on christianity through whatever means necessary. As an organisation of exclusively all male celibate childless members, it isnt surprising that child welfare is low/existant on its list of concerns.

What is surprising is that after the reports, the authorities haven't implemented unprecedented restrictions on all members of the church, frozen their assets, made compulsory orders to have them pay their share of the redress bill and expelled their ambassador. Let's be honest if hundreds or thousands of child abuse cases were unearthed about geography teachers, there wouldn't be a child at school the following day pending a massive investigation and getting of every teacher.

The reason we are currently at a bit of an impasse is because people in charge were once young children indoctrinated to the churches teachings and are afraid to go after them. The tide seems to be turning now that popular opinion is allowing ministers to speak out against the church, albeit as long as they are doingso "regrettably as a practicing Catholic myself".

pragmatic1 · 25-07-2011 02:41PM

The fcukin arrogance of these people. Hopefully some good will come of this i.e more people realising what a dysfunctional, corrupt and nefarious organisation the RCC is.

bronte · 25-07-2011 02:41PM

Oh noes...the people of Ireland are fed up of our shit.....what happened? They used to loooooooove us.

They couldn't be more deluded if they tried.
Sickening.

nice1franko · 25-07-2011 02:43PM

Incredible, astonishing statement.

Isn't it indicative of just how entitled, conceited and untouchable they view themselves?

They need to be brought back into line (and regulation) with every other care-based organisation out there and individuals chased down and imprisoned regardless of how high up in their club the consider themselves.

SEPT 23 1989 · 25-07-2011 02:49PM

Seize all property and lands belonging to this gang

enough is enough

vibe666 · 25-07-2011 02:49PM

you wouldn't be able to sell anything you seized off them in this economy, so it would be better to remove the churches tax exempt status and make them pay the proper taxes they should to punish them, which can then be invested back into compensation and counselling for their victims AND solve the economic crisis at the same time.

Downlinz · 25-07-2011 02:53PM

Far too much hyperbole and dramatic reactions from people in relation to the church, it seems like regardless of what they say lines will be quoted in the context of child rape and abuse coverings. Ultimately the majority of posters here will not accept whatever the vatican has to say and has already made up their mind to be dismissive towards any comment they make.

I don't condone any actions and generally look unfavourably towards the vatican in general however I'm a bit cautious to jump on the bandwagon here with pitchforks against them. There are undoubted concerns with individuals but to brand the entire organisation as Enda Kenny did are very strong claims and unquestionably excessive.

That said I approve of excessive remarks and think the excessive nature of what he said reflects the public mood and gives great hope that these kind of things will be called for as they are in the future. The remarks were naturally surprising and described as "unprecedented" by most media sources while any negative speech will be seen as disappointing by the target.
Basically I'd have no problem with what they said, I think people are too conditioned to PR speeches and when something honest and direct emerges like this people interpret it as a defence of their actions when in actual fact they're displaying they felt this unexpected speech served no constructive purpose.

While technically correct from the people/church relationship I think it serves a purpose from the people/government point of view and is a great statement of intent that the government is not afraid to speak against the church. It "does" take an excessive speech to hit that point home and delivers a moral boost to the public that the dark days won't reoccur.

tl;dr: I'm on the same side as everyone else here but people need to stop looking at press releases like this through the eyes of an hysterical, emotional fat woman staring at a basket of chocolate she can never reach. It makes us look like the illogical, unreasonable and dismissive ones with an agenda against the catholic church.

BrerWolf · 25-07-2011 02:53PM

I may be totally wrong here, but wasn't there some kind of compensation deal done years ago for the abuse cases?

I kindof remember hearing that they had done a deal where the church would make a one-off payment for all the cases, in return for not having to pay up again, and that their property and holdings were off limits.

Though I may have just heard this in a pub....

LilyCullen · 25-07-2011 02:58PM

Downlinz wrote: »

Far too much hyperbole and dramatic reactions from people in relation to the church, it seems like regardless of what they say lines will be quoted in the context of child rape and abuse coverings. Ultimately the majority of posters here will not accept whatever the vatican has to say and has already made up their mind to be dismissive towards any comment they make.

I don't condone any actions and generally look unfavourably towards the vatican in general however I'm a bit cautious to jump on the bandwagon here with pitchforks against them. There are undoubted concerns with individuals but to brand the entire organisation as Enda Kenny did are very strong claims and unquestionably excessive.

That said I approve of excessive remarks and think the excessive nature of what he said reflects the public mood and gives great hope that these kind of things will be called for as they are in the future. The remarks were naturally surprising and described as "unprecedented" by most media sources while any negative speech will be seen as disappointing by the target.
Basically I'd have no problem with what they said, I think people are too conditioned to PR speeches and when something honest and direct emerges like this people interpret it as a defence of their actions when in actual fact they're displaying they felt this unexpected speech served no constructive purpose.

While technically correct from the people/church relationship I think it serves a purpose from the people/government point of view and is a great statement of intent that the government is not afraid to speak against the church. It "does" take an excessive speech to hit that point home and delivers a moral boost to the public that the dark days won't reoccur.

tl;dr: I'm on the same side as everyone else here but people need to stop looking at press releases like this through the eyes of an hysterical, emotional fat woman staring at a basket of chocolate she can never reach. It makes us look like the illogical, unreasonable and dismissive ones with an agenda against the catholic church.

I'm so enraged I can't even formulate a scathing reply to this

hatrickpatrick · 25-07-2011 02:59PM

Downlinz wrote: »

Far too much hyperbole and dramatic reactions from people in relation to the church, it seems like regardless of what they say lines will be quoted in the context of child rape and abuse coverings. Ultimately the majority of posters here will not accept whatever the vatican has to say and has already made up their mind to be dismissive towards any comment they make.

No.
I am a Catholic.
I will accept a statement from the Vatican saying "What we did was 100% wrong, we make no excuses for it, we are ashamed, and we will hand over any and all people responsible for this to the national police force of sovereign Ireland. Furthermore, we will not attempt to belittle or defend ourselves in any way.

In other words, a full, UNCONDITIONAL apology and an agreement to actively work with the authorities to bring every single abusive scum to justice, to national justice, not canon justice.

If they made such a statement I would accept it. I will not accept anything less.

And if it was any organization besides the church, I doubt anyone would accept anything less.

vibe666 · 25-07-2011 03:08PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

No.
I am a Catholic.
I will accept a statement from the Vatican saying "What we did was 100% wrong, we make no excuses for it, we are ashamed, and we will hand over any and all people responsible for this to the national police force of sovereign Ireland. Furthermore, we will not attempt to belittle or defend ourselves in any way.

In other words, a full, UNCONDITIONAL apology and an agreement to actively work with the authorities to bring every single abusive scum to justice, to national justice, not canon justice.

If they made such a statement I would accept it. I will not accept anything less.

And if it was any organization besides the church, I doubt anyone would accept anything less.

i'm not a catholic, but i totally agree with this.

what has happened has happened and it can't be undone, but the actions and reactions of the church are nothing short of spitting in the faces of the countless victims not only of the abuse itself, but the cover ups, denials and flat out dismissiveness of the seriousness of what has been done and the disdain they have shown towards anyone who thinks they should be held accountable for it all.

dr gonzo · 25-07-2011 03:09PM

Finally the grip of this parasitic organisation is loosening around our collective throats (too dramatic?) but seriously the stories i heard from my father growing up in 60's "Catholic Ireland" would get any modern persons blood boiling and they think they're still above our laws, still beyond the demands of justice from an outraged people. Ireland is educated and indignant and wont be browbeaten anymore and i think it was only a matter of time before Ireland was given a substantial enough reason to publicly renounce our affiliation with any church as a state. By which i dont mean they should be kicked out of ireland or anything ridiculous like that i merely mean any affiliation that remains between the Irish catholic church and our democratically elected government needs to severed immediately starting with a complete overhaul of the administration of Irish national schools.

On a less invective note i think the removal of religious managment from public schools may actually be useful to the church as it might free up priests for otherwise empty parishes.

As a final note i just want to point out that i have nothing but respect for peoples beliefs whatever the may be, it is purely the organisation that i have a major problem with.

flutered · 25-07-2011 03:12PM

i guess i am what is known as a lasped catholic, their attitude, tunnel vision plus complete and absolute arragonce is pushing me further away, how can the decision makers of a worldwide organisation be so far detached from reality.

Nodin · 25-07-2011 03:15PM

BrerWolf wrote: »

I may be totally wrong here, but wasn't there some kind of compensation deal done years ago for the abuse cases?

I kindof remember hearing that they had done a deal where the church would make a one-off payment for all the cases, in return for not having to pay up again, and that their property and holdings were off limits.

Though I may have just heard this in a pub....

That was the original deal, yes.
See here under "controversies", though fucking disgrace would be a better heading. He excluded the department of justice from the meetings, if I recall.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Woods_(politician)

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/how-the-orders-got-more-than-they-bargained-for-1756645.html

Vatican "surprised", "disappointed" by "excessive reactions", recalls

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