Oslo bombed

The Left Hand Of God · 24-07-2011 01:46AM

In all honesty how is any other mass serial killer going to top that amount of people?

The bar has been set and lets face it... it's fuking high.

Duggy747 · 24-07-2011 01:47AM

Malty_T wrote: »

but in a few years from now if a student feeling a little out of sorts with society was to be informed of him then he may find comfort and empathy in extremist stuff. Heck, even a future boardsie might find it.

Type in a few words into google and you will find practically every kind of community for every kind of subject. This manifesto is on the net forever and will be found by those seeking it out quite easily, just like 1000s of other documents in relation to such things (Obviously, nothing as heavily reasearched and detailed in relation to an atrocity like this)

Even then that's just the indexed stuff that can be found through search engines. You can go far deeper into the realms of the internet through different routing to find more obscure and disturbing things.

Turtwig · 24-07-2011 01:48AM

The Left Hand Of God wrote: »

In all honesty how is any other mass serial killer going to top that amount of people?

The bar has been set and lets face it... it's fuking high.

Pick a big occasion e.g street parade, football game. It's not that hard really.

The Left Hand Of God · 24-07-2011 01:53AM

Malty_T wrote: »

Pick a big occasion e.g street parade, football game. It's not that hard really.

You do not know your history. Packed places with hundreds of people have been attacked by lone gun men and not scored over 20!

Turtwig · 24-07-2011 01:55AM

Einhard wrote: »

If we don't read and discuss this kind of stuff, then it means that it will only be read by those who might share a similar frame of mind to the suspected attacker in Norway. I'm not sure that that would achieve anything useful. This material is out there, whether we like it or not. Far better, IMO, to read it and try to come to an understanding of what drives such people, than censor ourselves in the mistaken hope that, by doing so, we somehow prevent it from getting into the hands of the nuts.

I see where you're coming from and I agree sort of but firstly let me reiterate that I'm against censorship. Some thing are actually best off not even discussed by society. Yeah, I know that sounds counter intuitive but democracy is a work in progress and emotive topics like these (a massacre) make every Tom, Dick and Harry put forward their opinion. Unfortunately, it's a case of those who feel strongest and shout loudest will win. If the discussion remains purely rational then I'd agree with you, but this stuff isn't likely to be used in rational discussions.

jill_valentine · 24-07-2011 01:59AM

Malty_T wrote: »

I see where you're coming from and I agree sort of but firstly let me reiterate that I'm against censorship. Some thing are actually best off not even discussed by society. Yeah, I know that sounds counter intuitive but democracy is a work in progress and emotive topics like these (a massacre) make every Tom, Dick and Harry put forward their opinion. Unfortunately, it's a case of those who feel strongest and shout loudest will win. If the discussion remains purely rational then I'd agree with you, but this stuff isn't likely to be used in rational discussions.

I get what you're saying. It's natural to be curious, and to share stuff like this, but the result of that impulse might not be for the greater good. Probably posted already, of course, but -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PezlFNTGWv4

AhSureTisGrand · 24-07-2011 02:01AM

The Left Hand Of God wrote: »

In all honesty how is any other mass serial killer going to top that amount of people?

The bar has been set and lets face it... it's fuking high.

Fly an aeroplane into a building, drop an atomic bomb etc...

Duggy747 · 24-07-2011 02:01AM

Malty_T wrote: »

I see where you're coming from and I agree sort of but firstly let me reiterate that I'm against censorship. Some thing are actually best off not even discussed by society. Yeah, I know that sounds counter intuitive but democracy is a work in progress and emotive topics like these (a massacre) make every Tom, Dick and Harry put forward their opinion. Unfortunately, it's a case of those who feel strongest and shout loudest will win. If the discussion remains purely rational then I'd agree with you, but this stuff isn't likely to be used in rational discussions.

I see where you're coming from but what about in the case of the news agencies who originally blame music, film & tv for such things like this. For encouraging people to do these acts of horror?

They have been glad to point out that this guy was a fan of Dexter on his Facebook. (The manifesto itself is dated to have been started back in 2002)

News channels will be so over the top in breaking how yesterday's events occured. Like a visual blueprint in itself, showing paths the killer took, what he did, how he did it.

Even without this document the media are going to go to town on the shootings.

Turtwig · 24-07-2011 02:07AM

Duggy747 wrote: »

I see where you're coming from but what about in the case of the news agencies who originally blame music, film & tv for such things like this. For encouraging people to do these acts of horror?

They have been glad to point out that this guy was a fan of Dexter on his Facebook. (The manifesto itself is dated to have been started back in 2002)

News channels will be so over the top in breaking how yesterday's events occured. Like a visual blueprint in itself., showing paths the killer took, what he did, how he did it.

Even without this document the media are going to go to town on the shootings.

My opinion of modern media and journalism has been posted several times on this site before and suffice to say it ain't a pretty one. I'm actually in a good mood a the moment so I don't want to go really thinking about that.:D

24-07-2011 02:10AM

Malty_T wrote: »

Does anyone reading this not realise that this stuff will very likely inspire other copycats if they become aware of it? It simply shouldn't be discussed, I'm not an advocate of censorship, but when people are spreading awareness of something that in the long could cause so much harm I'd expect them to so a little restraint a turn a blind eye. Some thing are best left not mentioned. This, quite clearly, is one of them.

So, you want this information suppressed? If anything, it should be talked about openly and condemned rather than hid away as if we are scared of his words.

randylonghorn · 24-07-2011 02:10AM

Malty_T wrote: »

Spreading it clandestine was much more preferable. Public awareness is a mixed bag, in some ways this document will legitimise his attack but perhaps most crucially of all this guy is now a 'role model' of sorts. A Jesus Figure if you will. If Randy was repeat to similar views to his community in future then they would be very prone to labelling Randy as Anders. The reason why that is such a bad thing is because folks who may share the tendencies as him but, would otherwise never have heard of him, will be made aware of him. Obviously everyone today is pretty much aware of who he is, but in a few years from now if a student feeling a little out of sorts with society was to be informed of him then he may find comfort and empathy in extremist stuff. Heck, even a future boardsie might find it.

I see the point you're making, I just don't agree. If I had some sort of absolute power over the internet, I would probably edit out the strategic plans part all right. But allowing the rest of this document to be spread only among people who would agree with it, uncriticized, uncontested, would be in my view a dangerous thing.

Besides, I think it has much to teach our society about the dangers which lie right under our noses, but which have been eclipsed by the "accepted" rhetoric that the arch-enemy, the only enemy, are jihadist extremists.

And they are dangerous, that has been proven. But in appointing them as the global enemy we ignore, very much at our peril, that there are other types of dangerous extremists out there, many of them "home-grown" in the broader European and American contexts. In fact, in doing so we are almost recruiting for another particularly dangerous type of extremist, the white supremacists, the neo-fascists, whatever we want to call them. And you would think that we in Europe would be particularly wary of that particular breed, but unfortunately the lessons of history are soon forgotten.

We need to remember that ALL extremists are extremely dangerous, whether Islamic jihadists or white supremacists, or, indeed, our locally grown fanatics of the extreme Republican or extreme Unionist variety.

Maybe this will help to hammer that home.

In any case, it's a moot point. In these days of the internet and instant communication, this document is out there, and the rabbit can't be put back in the hat. Refusing to discuss it on Boards certainly won't accomplish that.

Duggy747 · 24-07-2011 02:11AM

Malty_T wrote: »

My opinion of modern media and journalism has been posted several times on this site before and suffice to say it ain't a pretty one. I'm actually in a good mood a the moment so I don't want to go really thinking about that.:D

Either do I, I'm not their biggest chum :pac:

Anyways, the document is out there. It's not official yet but you can imagine the media will let us know about it and then it will be widely known.

This is the worst masacare, we haven't had proper answers yet so people will be interested in this story for a long while.

I'd much rather know that people like this exist and see how they come to their conclusions rather than some concoction of a character created in the media or movies.

aboveusonlysky · 24-07-2011 02:18AM

This tragic event will take a bit of the limelight away from murdoch and his puppets anyway!

Moomoo1 · 24-07-2011 04:21AM

I've read much of it

it's a shocking document, obv., but none of the ideology is new. Just a rehashing of some of the material that constantly comes up on far right sites. Apparently, some parts are just plainly copied from Wiki.

Reminds me of bin Laden's rantings a lot. The material and the way of presenting is different, but the conclusion is exactly the same. Kill the infidels, kill those who fraternise with the infidels.

Stinicker · 24-07-2011 04:29AM

This is a powerful document and proves one thing the man was far from a loon but rather a calculated genius, possibly with OCD and obsessed and committed to his cause, I wonder did he have a girlfriend or wife? because it looks like he worked flat out on this for years and even says he spent €300k on the research.

This is a modern day Mein Kampf to "Patriots" as he he put it, This will forever be out there now and people will act on it, he will be immortalised as a patriotic hero to people with these beliefs and time will tell what it stirs up. One thing is for certain that what he wrote about Ireland in it is correct, however no matter how extreme the viewpoint I think violence like this is never the answer.

However what really gets me is his choice of target considering his beliefs, he killed Nordic children when you would imagine Muslims or high ranking liberals would be the target from a brief scan of his writings. Those poor kids were only there for the craic I'd wager and certainly knew nothing about the "Marxist cultural war" he refers to.

He had his fame and his message is out there now, hopefully it can be expressed in peaceful and democratic ways and not in violence. The extreme right will always be there it seems and trying to ban or censor them will only give rise to people like this guy, let them partake in Democracy and the people will ultimately decide who they want.

Duggy747 · 24-07-2011 04:32AM

He has a diary towards the end of the manifest. This guy had the motion set as far back as 2002, and decided to start breaking away from his friends and pulling women to complete his mission. His mission, he didn't know what it was then, was always no.1. He even states how he'd prefer to start a family but he could'nt stand by and watch Europe go down the drain, in his eyes.

In 2005, he managed to acquire €500,000 and for a while afterwards spends most of his days running 2 Facebook accounts and e-mail farming so as to gain contacts. He constantly moans how tedious this is.

He created his Breivik Geofarm company in 2009 for the purpose of getting a hold of chemicals so as to not arouse any kind of suspicion.

At Febuary 2010 he states this:

February 2010

I just bought Modern Warfare 2, the game. It is probably the best military simulator out
there and it’s one of the hottest games this year. I played MW1 as well but I didn’t really
like it as I’m generally more the fantasy RPG kind of person – Dragon Age Origins etc .and
not so much into first person shooters.

I see MW2 more as a part of my training-simulation
than anything else. I’ve still learned to love it though and especially the multiplayer part is
amazing. You can more or less completely simulate actual operations.

Oh dear, I sense bad news for video games coming....

Duggy747 · 24-07-2011 04:38AM

Stinicker wrote: »

This is a powerful document and proves one thing the man was far from a loon but rather a calculated genius, possibly with OCD and obsessed and committed to his cause, I wonder did he have a girlfriend or wife? because it looks like he worked flat out on this for years and even says he spent €300k on the research.

He definitely isn't some kind of casual redneck "They tuuuk eeer jawbs!". This guy is scarily gingerly in his research.

He even goes as far as discussing how to aquire nuclear weaponry (not him soley, but the cells of which he supposedly operates in), the time-frame for stealing one, various models of nuclear warheads with their safety features, and the implications of certain countries handing them over to see a job done secretly so as not to be traced back to create worldwide condemnation.

This guy really did his homework on his "mission". Apparently, he says he was the youngest at the session (23 years old?) at which he was ordinated and is of only 2 people charged with documenting a compendium.

April/May 2002

I am the Norwegian delegate to the founding meeting in London, England and ordinated as
the 8th Justiciar Knight for the PCCTS, Knights Templar Europe. I joined the session after
visiting one of the initial facilitators, a Serbian Crusader Commander and war hero, in
Monrovia, Liberia. Certain long term tasks are delegated and I am one of two who are
asked to create a compendium based on the information I have acquired from the other
founders during our sessions. Our primary objective is to develop PCCTS, Knights Templar
into becoming the foremost conservative revolutionary movement in Western Europe the
next few decades....

....Everyone is using code names; mine is
Sigurd (the Crusader) while my assigned mentor is referred to as Richard (the
Lionhearted). I believe Im the youngest one here.

PseudoFamous · 24-07-2011 04:42AM

Duggy747 wrote: »

This guy really did his homework on his "mission". Apparently, he says he is the youngest of the cell he is operating in and is of only 2 people commited to performing a "major change"

Every loon in Europe is going to be latching on to him now, I suspect it's not just "2" anymore. Also, did anyone else get an eerie feeling that there was some form of opinion and moral bending trying to be imposed on the reader while going through that? It seems to have been more an active recruitment drive than an innocent investigation and guidebook. The way some things were phrased was odd, and I suspect that it's not entirely from a language barrier point of view.

Killer Wench · 24-07-2011 04:43AM

My thoughts and prayers are with the families of the victims. What a very twisted individual to have targeted children. And it happened in Norway, Europe.

Duggy747 · 24-07-2011 04:47AM

PseudoFamous wrote: »

Every loon in Europe is going to be latching on to him now, I suspect it's not just "2" anymore.

I quoted that wrong and changed my post, I meant to say him and another guy were tasked in creating a compendium based on information they gathered from founders at the session where he was ordinated.

But yea, this will have a pretty bad ripple effect.

EDIT: Oh and the picture I linked earlier saying he was in scuba gear, it was actually Skins compression clothing. I know nothing of that craìc until it was actually pointed out in this document :pac:

Manic Moran · 24-07-2011 05:14AM

PseudoFamous wrote: »

That's a very tricky thing to check out, but I suspect the number vs. robberies committed would be low. If you can prove otherwise, I'd gladly eat my words.

John Lott wrote a book on the subject entitled "More Guns, Less Crime." You can imagine his conclusions from the statistics by the title.

It proved somewhat controversial, and another group of academics debunked it. Then yet another group debunked the debunking. You're as well off just reading it and forming your own conlcusions.

One can't help but laugh at the fact that over 90% of the guns being smuggled into America from Mexico were bought legally in America. Ya really couldn't make it up.

Well, you could, because someone did. That is a greatly misquoted figure, the actual stat is that 80% of all firearms submitted to the ATF for tracing came from America. Obviously, firearms with serial numbers obliterated, or that were of a type not made in the US, or maybe were identified from Mexican stocks and so on were never submitted to the ATF in the first place, it would have been a waste of time. The primary source of Mexican cartel firearms is actually Latin American militaries, primarily through Honduras.

The only notable successful mass shooting I can think of in the US where a random bystander could be legally armed was the shooting of Congresswoman Giffords. The judge who was killed did have a permit to carry, but had left his sidearm at home. The closest person who was carrying a weapon was inside a local Walmart, by the time he got into the street, the man had already been subdued as a result of his weapon jamming. The only other one which might come to mind was the Trolley Square Mall shooting in Utah, in that case the gunman was suppressed by an off-duty cop visiting on holiday who ignored the 'no firearms' sign on the door. In pretty much every other circumstance of unopposed mass shooting, it was in 'victim disarmament zones.' The Colorado Springs church shootings are a perfect case in point. The man shot up one church, killed a couple of unarmed people, and left. He went to another church across town, tried to shoot up a few people, and was shot by one of the congregation who had brought her sidearm to the service.

Now, all the above said, I'm not convinced that the situation in Norway is such that people need to routinely carry arms. Norway isn't the US, we have a few more unique problems here, and not all of them human (Example, it is mandatory to have a large gun in your airplane if you're flying in Alaska. It's also good sense. Go camping where I'm typing from in rural Northern Nevada without a firearm and the first mountain lion you meet will convince you that was a bad idea). But as Switzerland shows, it's possible to have a country where popping into the shop for milk with an assault rifle on your shoulder results in little harm at all, so logic along the lines of 'lots of guns = much more crime and death' is blatantly false.

I can't see any police unit not shooting him on sight if he was armed

Mate this is Norway not USA

The guy just shot nearly 90 people. You think that even Norwegian police were going to take any chance at all while surrounded by the corpses of scores of youths, or that he would have any compunction against shooting any police he saw if he was able to? If he as much as looked sideways at them he was going to get shot.
My guess is he just ran out of ammo and had dropped the gun. 85 dead is seriously efficient considering a standard combat load of 210 rounds for an infantry soldier in a war zone.

NTM (<--- My initials, answering an earlier question)

philologos · 24-07-2011 09:28AM

This quote in the BBC coverage is chilling to say the least:

Anders Behring Breivik, 32, described his actions as "gruesome but necessary", and said he would explain himself at a court hearing on Monday.

No remorse whatsoever.

Blueboyd · 24-07-2011 09:59AM

page 1228

We, the European Revolutionary Conservatives know very well that it will take many years, even decades before we successfully manage to consolidate to a degree where we can seize political and military power in the first Western European country. In the US, the Tea party movement is one of the first physical, political manifestations which indicate that there is a great storm coming. The creation of similar conservative organizations, even the creation of revolutionary conservative movements such as the Knights Templar is just another manifestation that real resistance to the EUSSR/US cultural Marxist/multiculturalist hegemony is about to materialize. The cultural Marxists are losing their momentum to our advantage.

The pioneers of the new world order

We are some of the founding fathers of the new world order. The conservative martyrs of today, both democratic and revolutionary, will be remembered and celebrated as the founding fathers when our cultural conservative world order has been established in the European world within 20-70 years.

Sarah Pallin ball to you.

MagicMarker · 24-07-2011 10:04AM

If I was in charge of Norwegian authorities I would not let this man make any kind of public statement, I would make sure all court appearances etc happen behind closed doors, I would ban all media, I would make sure he is never seen on camera again. He can't be given a platform to spout his neo-fascist bull****.

Crazy Horse 6 · 24-07-2011 10:13AM

Stinicker wrote: »

This is a powerful document and proves one thing the man was far from a loon but rather a calculated genius, possibly with OCD and obsessed and committed to his cause, I wonder did he have a girlfriend or wife? because it looks like he worked flat out on this for years and even says he spent €300k on the research.

This is a modern day Mein Kampf to "Patriots" as he he put it, This will forever be out there now and people will act on it, he will be immortalised as a patriotic hero to people with these beliefs and time will tell what it stirs up. One thing is for certain that what he wrote about Ireland in it is correct, however no matter how extreme the viewpoint I think violence like this is never the answer.

However what really gets me is his choice of target considering his beliefs, he killed Nordic children when you would imagine Muslims or high ranking liberals would be the target from a brief scan of his writings. Those poor kids were only there for the craic I'd wager and certainly knew nothing about the "Marxist cultural war" he refers to.

He had his fame and his message is out there now, hopefully it can be expressed in peaceful and democratic ways and not in violence. The extreme right will always be there it seems and trying to ban or censor them will only give rise to people like this guy, let them partake in Democracy and the people will ultimately decide who they want.

Emm just because he was clever does'nt mean he was'nt a loon.

pablomakaveli · 24-07-2011 10:14AM

MagicMarker wrote: »

If I was in charge of Norwegian authorities I would not let this man make any kind of public statement, I would make sure all court appearances etc happen behind closed doors, I would ban all media, I would make sure he is never seen on camera again. He can't be given a platform to spout his neo-fascist bull****.

Every newspaper and media outlet will be vying to get that first "exclusive" interview though. By right he should be censored and not given the attention he craves but no doubt he will.

I don't think he cares about being imprisoned but making sure he doesn't get to tell his story to the media would be a great way to of punishing him as it would be something he does care about.

Also feels kind of wrong that the Amy winehouse thread has generated nearly as many responses as this one in just one night.

Blueboyd · 24-07-2011 10:18AM

MagicMarker wrote: »

If I was in charge of Norwegian authorities I would not let this man make any kind of public statement, I would make sure all court appearances etc happen behind closed doors, I would ban all media, I would make sure he is never seen on camera again. He can't be given a platform to spout his neo-fascist bull****.

On the contrary it should be published everywhere and shown the moral and ethical bankruptcy of his ideas.

karma_ · 24-07-2011 10:20AM

pablomakaveli wrote: »

Also feels kind of wrong that the Amy winehouse thread has generated nearly as many responses as this one in just one night.

I noticed this last night and it's a sad reflection of a lot of boards users.

MagicMarker · 24-07-2011 10:33AM

Blueboyd wrote: »

On the countrary it should be published everywhere and shown the moral and ethcical banktrupcy of his ideas.

I'd say the majority are already well aware of that. Putting him on display would only appeal to the closet nut jobs sitting in their basements **** over this guys manifesto.

Blueboyd · 24-07-2011 10:45AM

MagicMarker wrote: »

I'd say the majority are already well aware of that. Putting him on display would only appeal to the closet nut jobs sitting in their basements **** over this guys manifesto.

I think this was the way US went when they invented that there might be coded messages for sleeper cells in the OBL speeches and asked media not to publish.

Yes publishing might increase risks of more loonies. But personally I'd choose liberty over security any day.

Oslo bombed

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