Oslo bombed

Haelium · 23-07-2011 04:06PM

Lux23 wrote: »

He is defintely intelligent, any simpleton can get a gun and shoot a few people but to plant a bomb to divert attention away so you can walk into a camp full of young people and kill 80 plus takes some amount of planning.

Yes, any simpleton can plant a bomb as a diversion.
Off the top of my head I can think of several ways that he could have killed many more people, which I will not discuss for obvious reasons.

Anybody could come up with a plan like this if they sat down and thought about it.

He was also a fundamentalist Christian, generally speaking fundies aren't the brightest bunch.

Lux23 · 23-07-2011 04:08PM

There are plenty of people with questionable views who are intelligent, I don't agree that someone with a low IQ could plan something like this.

SharpshooterTom · 23-07-2011 04:11PM

philologos wrote: »

Gnobe: Except that this killer does have far-right political leanings according to what we know about it thus far.

So? The ringleader of the columbine shooters praised all things about nazis the holocaust, anti-semetism, darwinism for "killing off weak organisms" etc

Maybe he was just addicted to murder and hate?

Turtwig · 23-07-2011 04:12PM

WesternNight wrote: »

From what I've seen and heard it sounds like it was very well planned, and I would expect he'd be quite intelligent. Saying he's intelligent wouldn't be complimenting him or anything, though... it would just be stating a fact.

My response was to this post. It appears so, but we don't know for certain, or if he even planned it.

philologos wrote: »

A clearly intelligent, articulate, and politically motivated person carried out these attacks.

Assumptions, seemings and everything else do not account to facts.

Turtwig · 23-07-2011 04:14PM

philologos wrote: »

Malty T: What do people generally plan around? An intention? A motive?

Fun, pleasure, publicity, nothing, the list is endless.

philologos · 23-07-2011 04:15PM

Gnobe wrote: »

So? The ringleader of the columbine shooters praised all things about nazis the holocaust, anti-semetism, darwinism for "killing off weak organisms" etc

Maybe he was just addicted to murder and hate?

I'd put a lot of weight on the impact of the ideology in that case. Like I would put a lot of weight on the impact of "social darwinism" that was held to by the school shooter. Even then though, the school shootings were just random killings of people.

In this case there is a political motive in so far as the targets were specifically the Government, and the political party that's currently governing namely the Labour party. As I've said already there is some recognition even in the Norwegian cabinet that this is the case.

Malty T: There is generally an intended outcome in most actions. I have no reason to believe that there wasn't an intended outcome in this case particularly in respect to the Government / Labour Party.

RGDATA! · 23-07-2011 04:16PM

mcmoustache wrote: »

I'll get back to you when I'm finished eating my hat.

at least you had the nuts to come back on and acknowledge you jumped to the wrong conclusion

Turtwig · 23-07-2011 04:18PM

philologos wrote: »

. As I've said already there is some recognition even in the Norwegian cabinet that this might be the case.

FYP.

SharpshooterTom · 23-07-2011 04:18PM

philologos wrote: »

In this case there is a political motive in so far as the targets were specifically the Government, and the political party that's currently governing namely the Labour party. As I've said already there is some recognition even in the Norwegian cabinet that this is the case.

Congresswomen Gabriel Giffords was a democratic congresswomen. The Arizona shooter had nothing against Obama administration or the democrats as it turned out but he still gunned her and her supporters down.

philologos · 23-07-2011 04:19PM

Gnobe: read what I said to you when you said that last time.

Turtwig · 23-07-2011 04:21PM

philologos wrote: »

Malty T: There is generally an intended outcome in most actions. I have no reason to believe that there wasn't an intended outcome in this case particularly in respect to the Government / Labour Party.

How many times do I have to say I was referring to this incident? I was merely stating that your supposition about their being motive in everything is wrong. Generally, isn't always.

mcmoustache · 23-07-2011 04:24PM

Einhard wrote: »

My point was that, when a Muslim carries out an atrocity, his religion is immediately blamed by some people, and his co-religionists tarred with the same brush; when a Christian carries out the same act, even where religion might have played a part, the same people look for other motivations. If one is going to be a prejudiced ignoramus, at least one should be consistent about it!

The more common atrocities committed by muslims tend to be quite islamic. The martyrdom videos show just that and their motivations, while partially political are also self professed to be islamic. This is perhaps why a lot of people see islam as being a bit nutty and violent.

For the sake of openness, I should state that I do think islam is a bit nutty and that the wahabi interpretation, financed from Saudi Arabia and spread around the world necessarily leads to terrorism. I'd even go so far as to suggest that a strict reading and following of the koran and hadiths would create violent people who believe that the whole world should become islamic at the point of a sword.

I also believe this to be true of Judaism and Old Testament Christianity. People interpreting the bible literally have caused plenty of atrocities and I would never pretend that their beliefs had nothing to do with their acts. I'm no fan of Christianity and when a white Christian rants about god and hell on youtube before blowing up an abortion clinic, I'll happily blame his fundamentalist interpretation of Christianity on the act, just as I blame wahabiism for most of the islamic atrocities.

HellFireClub · 23-07-2011 04:25PM

Just in relation to the Masonic connection, as far as I'm aware, the Masonic Grand Lodge of Norway operates on the basis of a warrant (basically a license without which a lodge cannot operate), issued by the Irish Grand Lodge of Ancient and Accepted Freemasons, as do the majority of Masonic lodges outside of North America...

What this means is that his explusion from his lodge for what is clearly unmasonic conduct, could actually a matter for the Irish Grand Lodge...

I'm no expert in this area although am well read on the subject...

http://www.irish-freemasons.org/

philologos · 23-07-2011 04:29PM

Malty_T wrote: »

How many times do I have to say I was referring to this incident? I was merely stating that your supposition about their being motive in everything is wrong. Generally, isn't always.

If something is premeditated motive is a necessity. If it isn't premeditated, but is sporadic then motive isn't a necessity.

Think out or plan (an action, esp. a crime) beforehand: "premeditated murder"

(premeditated) characterized by deliberate purpose and some degree of planning; "a premeditated crime"

(premeditation) (law) thought and intention to commit a crime well in advance of the crime; goes to show criminal intent

Premeditation presupposes an intention and a plan. Sporadic or random shooting doesn't. This case has all the trappings of premeditation though, and as such there was an intended outcome.

Turtwig · 23-07-2011 04:33PM

Premeditation shows it was planned or thought about before hand nothing more. I could decide to kill everyone in Leinster House, I could spend a whole year planning out the details of it and rehearsing crucial stages. The thing is I might have no reason for doing it, other than I just felt like it, meh.

23-07-2011 04:35PM

It's strange that he would rather go after the innocent children than go after the primeminister.

His motives are completely uncertain - for all we know, it could just turn out that he doesn't like children. Similar to the killings that inspired the Boomtown Rats song "I Don't Like Mondays"

The point is - nobody knows. This thread is already going the same route of the Japanese Earthquake/Tsunami/Nuclear emergency one.

PseudoFamous · 23-07-2011 04:35PM

philologos wrote: »

Premeditation presupposes an intention and a plan. Sporadic or random shooting doesn't. This case has all the trappings of premeditation though, and as such there was an intended outcome.

You said it yourself, Premeditation supposes intention and planning. However, it does not suppose motive.

ringadingding · 23-07-2011 04:37PM

WesternNight wrote: »

From what I've seen and heard it sounds like it was very well planned, and I would expect he'd be quite intelligent. Saying he's intelligent wouldn't be complimenting him or anything, though... it would just be stating a fact.

This will sound way worse than it's meant to, but you have to respect his planning and method, this was a guy with a plan.

When i say respect, i don't mean admire, i mean as in you'd show a rattlesnake respect if you saw one.

philologos · 23-07-2011 04:38PM

PseudoFamous wrote: »

You said it yourself, Premeditation supposes intention and planning. However, it does not suppose motive.

In this case the motive comes from looking to the target. One doesn't suddenly decide to blow up the Prime Ministers office block and then go to attack a Labour youth camp randomly because they're bored. That's what I'm saying.

This motive is the one currently being discussed by the media, and members of the Government in Norway, and it makes pretty good sense as far as I can see it. If the authorities find that I'm wrong and there's something else behind it I'll concede it immediately.

Turtwig · 23-07-2011 04:51PM

philologos wrote: »

In this case the motive comes from looking to the target. One doesn't suddenly decide to blow up the Prime Ministers office block and then go to attack a Labour youth camp randomly because they're bored. That's what I'm saying..

You'd be surprised, I think you're missing the point Gnobe is making about the congresswoman shooting.

philologos · 23-07-2011 05:00PM

Gnobe's main point is that the killer had no political affiliations in the US case. From what we currently know in this case, the killer does have political affiliations leaning in a far-right direction.

Turtwig · 23-07-2011 05:05PM

philologos wrote: »

Gnobe's main point is that the killer had no political affiliations in the US case. From what we currently know in this case, the killer does have political affiliations leaning in a far-right direction.

Which is not what people are talking to you about, they're referring to your claim that all plans have motive. They don't.

Sardonicat · 23-07-2011 05:08PM

92 confirmed dead.

4 or 5 still missing.

According to Police Chief.

AhSureTisGrand · 23-07-2011 05:09PM

You could argue that every such case has a motive, even if the motive is just a desire to go out and shoot people

Oh_Noes · 23-07-2011 05:09PM

Deleted User wrote: »

It's strange that he would rather go after the innocent children than go after the primeminister.

His motives are completely uncertain - for all we know, it could just turn out that he doesn't like children. Similar to the killings that inspired the Boomtown Rats song "I Don't Like Mondays"

You're missing the point that they were not little children as such, they were young adults and were part of the Labour youth movement. They were the people who were in all likelihood going to make up a part of the next generation of Labour party members.

The guy is quite young himself, 32 I remember seeing. So he wouldn't be much older than the 16-24 age group that he targeted on the island.

FouxDaFaFa · 23-07-2011 05:09PM

Deleted User wrote: »

It's strange that he would rather go after the innocent children than go after the primeminister.

He may have been aiming for the PM. He bombed his office and then attacked a place that the PM himself has said he spends a lot of time and was scheduled to be at.

prinz · 23-07-2011 05:10PM

The unusual aspect of the case is that they got him alive.

SharpshooterTom · 23-07-2011 05:12PM

philologos wrote: »

Gnobe's main point is that the killer had no political affiliations in the US case. From what we currently know in this case, the killer does have political affiliations leaning in a far-right direction.

The Columbine shooters had writings and interests of anti-semetism, and mein kampf in their journals. They also hated born again christians, but it doesn't mean it inspired to go and blow up their whole school because of it. Just because someone had political leanings doesn't mean they used them, or that was their main motive. They ended up being angry at society, depressed and self loathing, which caused them to take revenge and shoot up their school. Try and look at the mental characteristics of the man rather than just the political.

Sardonicat · 23-07-2011 05:12PM

Policed Chief: shooter gave himself up to the special forces when they arrived on the island.
He had been shooting for one and a half hours.

FouxDaFaFa · 23-07-2011 05:14PM

prinz wrote: »

The unusual aspect of the case is that they got him alive.

I think the general consensus is that he made sure to be taken alive because he wants to "explain" and get his views some publicity. Sickening, really. Unfortunately it is so rare to get a serial killer alive he will doubtless get a lot of publicity.You can imagine the press are foaming at the mouth at the thought of getting to speak to him.

Oslo bombed

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