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Shock Collar user fined in Wales

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,772 ✭✭✭✭Whispered


    I didnt feel uneasy about it to be honest because i didnt want him running a sheep into a fence. Now maybe the one i got is not as strong as these ones people are talking about that are burning dogs neck, i would not do that to a dog, but the one i got did not hurt.

    I would agree they defo should not be used excessively. some of the storys people have refered to about them burning dogs is not on at all

    Well I still totally disagree with them but fair play for sticking around and discussing them without getting silly about it. What would you do if you got another dog who showed similar tendencies but the collars were banned?
    It is crueler to imprison a dog in a run where it must spend most of its time and become bored. The dog got a fright from it first time but has not crossed the line since and appears quite happy.
    The ideal would be to use an actual fence, or have you conveniently skimmed over all of the posts regarding dogs escaping through these fences, being injured by the fences, associating the shock with other things and developing fears and being attacked by other dogs who can freely roam into the garden?
    I used the thing on myself, and i would say it is uncomfortable but not painful.
    I have also gotten a good few raps off electric fences - again uncomfortable but not exactly painful like you are suggesting but it only lasts a split second and then its over. Remember they are for large cattle and very powerful. You cannot equate a corrective shock to some kind of KBG type torture. Get a life.
    We're not talking about fencing to keep livestock in, we talking about shock collars being used as a corrective tool. Totally different things.

    Banning them is just another part of the tree huggers and PC brigates agenda. If they had their way, they would ban farmers using electric fences in their fileds. FFS

    I once heard someone of them on the radio saying not to buy mouse trap ffs.

    Any sort of point your making is just getting lost in ignorant ramblings and sweeping statements tbh. People are managing (for the most part) to discuss this without insulting others.

    Go get a life, we do much worse things to humans.

    Go make a relevant point without showing yourself up.

    Your posting in Animal and pet issues So I can't see the relevance of your last point. Maybe something to bring to humanities?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,615 ✭✭✭kildare.17hmr


    Whispered wrote: »
    Well I still totally disagree with them but fair play for sticking around and discussing them without getting silly about it. What would you do if you got another dog who showed similar tendencies but the collars were banned?
    I now have someone with an older dog to run my guy with for this coming season so all should be good. this would be the route id go in the future. No better way to learn than experience


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 935 ✭✭✭wildefalcon


    What do you do when your dog is eating his way through a wooden fence to attack the rabbit belonging to the neighbour?

    This is the dilemma I face now.

    I've tried distracting him with a piece of steak - ignored.

    I've walked him for an hour and a half, and then released him into his run, and straight over to the larch fence and biting the timber to break through.

    Well, right or wrong, I went out and bought a horse electric fence, powered by a 6 volt battery. I've strung it over the fence panel, and so far he has left the fence alone.

    Yes, he got a shock, yes, it was painful. But if he'd attacked the rabbit I'd either have to get him put-down, or I'd have to move.

    And buy a new rabbit.

    At the moment he is asleep on the sofa, with the door to the run open, and the rabbit is outside next door. All alive, all healthy and all happy.

    I accept these things can be abused, but that's a different debate, all things can be abused, doesn't mean we ban carving knives, car batteries, calor gas or other domestic items.

    And there is sufficient existing legislation to prosecute people who abuse animals to cover any eventuality.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,772 ✭✭✭✭Whispered


    And there is sufficient existing legislation to prosecute people who abuse animals to cover any eventuality.
    There really really isn't.

    You tried to distract him with a bit of steak, then you tried a half hour walk. Neither worked so you've hooked up a horse fence telling yourself that you've actually made an effort. :(


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 935 ✭✭✭wildefalcon


    Whispered wrote: »
    There really really isn't.

    You tried to distract him with a bit of steak, then you tried a half hour walk. Neither worked so you've hooked up a horse fence telling yourself that you've actually made an effort. :(

    What do you recommend? The dog is foaming at the mouth to get at this rabbit, and he is a stubborn sod.

    My solution worked. Story, end of. Good enough for horses, good enough for dogs.

    PS it was a 1 & 1/2 hour walk, his normal daily walk.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,772 ✭✭✭✭Whispered


    If you really want some recommendations I'd be very happy to give them, others would too I'm sure. But I honestly can't tell if you were genuinely asking or being sarcastic. Would you like to hear other suggestions?

    Your last line of it working end of really sounds very harsh on your dog tbh. If there are ways to not hurt your dog, who you obviously care very much about, wouldn't you prefer to try them. Rather than saying "oh well it worked, end of story".

    The thread was actually about e-collars, not electric fencing. And the fact someone was prosecuted for using an e-collar. I don't think electric fences themselves are illegal. If you do want alternatives to using the fence, or even just suggestions you might like to try while still using the fence, would it be ok for you to start a new thread so that we can stay on topic with the e-collars? You'll get loads of ideas on how to stop the dog going after the neighbours rabbit.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,782 Mod ✭✭✭✭DBB


    My solution worked. Story, end of. .

    So did Hitler's:eek:
    You've completely proven my point, that using painful/uncomfortable/startle/frightening gear to teach a dog is an act of frustration and desperation, which clearly clouds the judgement of the human and prevents them from taking a step back to looking at a bigger picture.
    The bigger picture? Sussing out a way of training the dog not to be so pent up by the rabbit. It's called Systematic Desensitisation and Counter Conditioning. But no, that takes a bit of work, a bit of creativity, a bit of patience. No, let's not bother training the dog with patience, let's hurt him. I only hope your electric fence doesn't stop working, or the rabbit is dead.
    This business of wanting a quick fix which requires almost zero effort on the owner's part always seems to cost the dog. Your poor dog.
    For the record, our existing legislation, in practice, is extremely weak on the animal welfare/cruelty front: things have to have got to a ghastly state before a prosecution is initiated.
    And nowhere in our legislation does it say a dog must be PTS for killing a rabbit. It's in the new NI and UK dog control legislation alright, but not ours.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 935 ✭✭✭wildefalcon


    What does PTS mean?

    Anyway, I think that the rabbit was running out of patience, as were the neighbours.

    Now, aside from the big words, and fancy letters, what would your suggestion be?

    As in real advice, rather than high falutin' science talk? What can I do to stop the dog eating the rabbit? After eating his way out of his run?

    I accept you'd prefer to lock the dog up in the kennel all day and night (I do have to sleep, I do have to work) but the solution that I have now in place has resulted in ......wait a minute....

    Why am I bothering, you've compared me to a genocidal war criminal, I know that means I will never get through to you.

    You stick to your views, I'll stick to mine.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,772 ✭✭✭✭Whispered


    What does PTS mean?

    Anyway, I think that the rabbit was running out of patience, as were the neighbours.

    Now, aside from the big words, and fancy letters, what would your suggestion be?

    As in real advice, rather than high falutin' science talk? What can I do to stop the dog eating the rabbit? After eating his way out of his run?

    I accept you'd prefer to lock the dog up in the kennel all day and night (I do have to sleep, I do have to work) but the solution that I have now in place has resulted in ......wait a minute....

    Why am I bothering, you've compared me to a genocidal war criminal, I know that means I will never get through to you.

    You stick to your views, I'll stick to mine.

    PTS = Put to sleep

    I see you've ignored my post asking if you actually do want other suggestions to have a go at another poster and their "high faultin science talk". At this stage I can't help but think you're either trolling or absolutely not interested in doing right by your dog. I questioned in my first post if prosecution for cruelty would make it more difficult to justify the use of such methods in peoples minds. Obviously in your case you care less about helping your dog and more about taking a lazy easy way out. You are precisely the type of owner these laws are there to protect animals from. Not the likes of Kildare who seems to have used it in a very specific way (not that I agree with it but I do see why it was done). But people like you who are too defensive and set in their "it works so who cares about the effect on the dog" ways to even consider trying anything else.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,222 ✭✭✭bigneacy


    andreac wrote: »
    Wow, poor dog:(

    You couldnt have done it in a more humane, less painful way, like building a fence, dog run etc, no?:rolleyes:

    A more humane, less painful way?

    TWO SHOCKS FROM A COLLAR.

    Catch a grip, andreac. The owner was at his wits end. It was probably only a matter of time before the dog done harm to itself. The behaviour was corrected in a time-efficient and safe way. The dog is happy as the owner stated. No lasting effects. Behaviour corrected.

    What if it was children the dog was chasing and not sheep? Would it still be inhumane and cruel?

    Did you ever even feel one of these dog collar shocks? They are uncomfortable - they get your attention. They are not sore. I've yet to hear any dog yelp or cry in pain from getting a shock.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,000 ✭✭✭andreac


    bigneacy wrote: »
    A more humane, less painful way?

    TWO SHOCKS FROM A COLLAR.

    Catch a ***ing grip, andreac. The owner was at his wits end. It was probably only a matter of time before the dog done harm to itself. The behaviour was corrected in a time-efficient and safe way. The dog is happy as the owner stated. No lasting effects. Behaviour corrected.

    What if it was children the dog was chasing and not sheep? Would it still be inhumane and cruel?

    Did you ever even feel one of these shocks? They are uncomfortable - they get your attention. They are not sore. I've yet to hear any dog yelp or cry in pain from getting a shock.

    Safe for who, the dog or the owner?? How is it safe when it hurts the dog?:mad:

    Some proof that they do damage and hurt the dog.

    http://maryshouse.us/A_Word_about_Shock_Collars.htm

    http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.135249120615.141862.59639020615

    http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/Adobe/rufus.pdf

    http://caninecountrytualatin.wordpress.com/2009/10/24/shawn-riley/

    What more evidence do you want??


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 935 ✭✭✭wildefalcon


    You expect me to be reasonable after being compared to Hitler?

    Funny. Not.

    So far All I've heard is a heap of science, and not a lot of advice.

    I gave an example of the challenge I faced, and have not yet heard a practical comment back.


    So, I challenge you, give me some practical advice, and please lay off the insults and snide comments, they don't help me warm to your arguments.

    And use English, not jargon, or abbreviations or other obstacles to understanding.

    How would this man in Wales teach his dog to respect boundaries? How do I stop my dog from digging under the fence? From jumping over it? From eating his way through it?

    The dog is half springer, half collie, and so is mad, intelligent, agile and able to clear 6 feet high from a standing start.

    And, anyway, I DO think the solution is good, happy dogs, alive rabbits, intact and secure dog run.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,772 ✭✭✭✭Whispered


    bigneacy wrote: »
    I've yet to hear any dog yelp or cry in pain from getting a shock.

    I have seen a good few very distressed dogs wearing a collar. Other people here
    have said similar. Of course you can disregard that as personal experience which can't be proven, but in that case the fact you've never heard a dog yelp with one on means nothing either.


  • Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 919 ✭✭✭Shanao


    bigneacy wrote: »
    A more humane, less painful way?

    TWO SHOCKS FROM A COLLAR.

    Catch a grip, andreac. The owner was at his wits end. It was probably only a matter of time before the dog done harm to itself. The behaviour was corrected in a time-efficient and safe way. The dog is happy as the owner stated. No lasting effects. Behaviour corrected.

    What if it was children the dog was chasing and not sheep? Would it still be inhumane and cruel?

    Did you ever even feel one of these dog collar shocks? They are uncomfortable - they get your attention. They are not sore. I've yet to hear any dog yelp or cry in pain from getting a shock.

    That word is the problem here. Time. Few people seem to have the patience to work with their dog, instead they would rather slap an electrical device onto his neck and let him go get a few shocks to teach him a lesson.
    The no lasting effects part is ludicrous really. As I said in an earlier post, you dont know what the dog is associating the shock with. Could be that the next time the owner takes him out for a walk and he sees a sheep he'll go berserk and attack for fear of getting a shock. Dogs dont think the way we do, they do not grasp that an invisble fence is giving them a jolt into the neck, they dont know what it is.
    If you've yet to hear a dog yelp or cry in pain from getting a shock then I assume you've never seen one with an ecollar go over the fence.

    And no, these aren't safe. This is what they can do if in the wrong hands or if they malfunction, which seems to be happening more and more lately.
    S-shock-injuries.jpgShock%2BCollar.jpg


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,772 ✭✭✭✭Whispered


    You expect me to be reasonable after being compared to Hitler?

    Funny. Not.

    So far All I've heard is a heap of science, and not a lot of advice.

    I gave an example of the challenge I faced, and have not yet heard a practical comment back.


    So, I challenge you, give me some practical advice, and please lay off the insults and snide comments, they don't help me warm to your arguments.

    And use English, not jargon, or abbreviations or other obstacles to understanding.

    How would this man in Wales teach his dog to respect boundaries? How do I stop my dog from digging under the fence? From jumping over it? From eating his way through it?

    The dog is half springer, half collie, and so is mad, intelligent, agile and able to clear 6 feet high from a standing start.

    And, anyway, I DO think the solution is good, happy dogs, alive rabbits, intact and secure dog run.

    Totally happy to try give some advice, (although must get ready for work now so it will be later tonight) but to do that would need to ask about training so far etc. It would go way off topic - would you be able to start a thread asking and people can reply there? Just so we can stay on the e-collar topic in this thread.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 434 ✭✭koppy


    andreac wrote: »
    Build a wooden fence or get a dog run, much more safer and reliable and dont inflict pain on your dog.
    Electric collars are the easy way out for the owner, not the dog.:mad:

    dont think you would say that if you had ever seen or trained a dog on the containment fence,
    have used this type of fence for a long while now and didn't find the training and re training an easy way out. think these are some thing that will always split people so all i going to say is if you decide to get one please train the dog properly.

    just on using shock collars to stop dogs barking etc..this is cruelty
    any training or behavioral training that uses punishment is cruel and should not be used.

    i know i'm going to get a post saying i'm contradicting myself in agreeing with the containment fence but dis agreeing with the barking bit. for me the difference is the training. i dont agree with using punishment to train and i think a lot of people think that using the containment fence is using punishment. its not. a properly trained dog wont get punished.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,378 ✭✭✭ISDW


    You expect me to be reasonable after being compared to Hitler?

    Funny. Not.

    So far All I've heard is a heap of science, and not a lot of advice.

    I gave an example of the challenge I faced, and have not yet heard a practical comment back.


    So, I challenge you, give me some practical advice, and please lay off the insults and snide comments, they don't help me warm to your arguments.

    And use English, not jargon, or abbreviations or other obstacles to understanding.

    How would this man in Wales teach his dog to respect boundaries? How do I stop my dog from digging under the fence? From jumping over it? From eating his way through it?

    The dog is half springer, half collie, and so is mad, intelligent, agile and able to clear 6 feet high from a standing start.

    And, anyway, I DO think the solution is good, happy dogs, alive rabbits, intact and secure dog run.

    Well obviously the man in Wales didn't teach his dog to respect boundaries with the collar on, as it was found outside of the boundaries.

    Could you not put some extra fencing up inside your wooden fencing, something more metallic that the dog can't chew? What happens if you have a power cut?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 935 ✭✭✭wildefalcon


    ISDW wrote: »
    Well obviously the man in Wales didn't teach his dog to respect boundaries with the collar on, as it was found outside of the boundaries.

    Could you not put some extra fencing up inside your wooden fencing, something more metallic that the dog can't chew? What happens if you have a power cut?

    I could, but I don't fancy living in a concentration camp, I know, putting appearances before my dog! Shocking!

    The fencer is powered by a single 6 volt battery - like in a torch - and it should last 4 months. And, do you know, it doesn't have to be on, to work! The dog just stays away from it now.

    Now, those dreadful pictures of abused dogs show what happens when the shock collars are abused, and neglected. This is terrible, but is not caused by the collar, it is caused by the owners not training the dogs, and over tightening the collars. The shock collar isn't at fault, it's misuse is the problem.

    The collar should be loose, and the beeping noise emitted by the collar should be enough to trigger the dog to back away. If that isn't happening then the dog hasn't been properly trained.

    Again, my point, the collars aren't inherently dangerous, but they can be abused. That an item can be abused is not sufficient reason to ban it, otherwise we'd ban insulin, and chemotherapy, highly dangerous and toxic materials that are used to the benefit of mankind.

    I'll open another thread regarding training of stubborn dogs later on, I've got to bring the dogs for a walk now.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,378 ✭✭✭ISDW


    I could, but I don't fancy living in a concentration camp, I know, putting appearances before my dog! Shocking!

    The fencer is powered by a single 6 volt battery - like in a torch - and it should last 4 months. And, do you know, it doesn't have to be on, to work! The dog just stays away from it now.

    Now, those dreadful pictures of abused dogs show what happens when the shock collars are abused, and neglected. This is terrible, but is not caused by the collar, it is caused by the owners not training the dogs, and over tightening the collars. The shock collar isn't at fault, it's misuse is the problem.

    The collar should be loose, and the beeping noise emitted by the collar should be enough to trigger the dog to back away. If that isn't happening then the dog hasn't been properly trained.

    Again, my point, the collars aren't inherently dangerous, but they can be abused. That an item can be abused is not sufficient reason to ban it, otherwise we'd ban insulin, and chemotherapy, highly dangerous and toxic materials that are used to the benefit of mankind.

    I'll open another thread regarding training of stubborn dogs later on, I've got to bring the dogs for a walk now.

    OK, so you ask for advice, saying that nobody is giving you any and then when someone does, you get nasty. Why did you have to be rude to me? I have powder coated fencing around my property and it doesn't look anything like a concentration camp, but thats not what you want to hear.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 935 ✭✭✭wildefalcon


    Sorry, didn't mean to insult your property, it's just that the fence that I'd need to keep my dogs in would be fairly ugly in order to work. I also doubt that it would work. As I say, the dogs can borrow down a long way, and can clear 6 foot easily.

    I also think it would be too urban for the setting I'm living in. Not to mention very expensive - 1.5km of fencing would cost a fair bit!


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,378 ✭✭✭ISDW


    Sorry, didn't mean to insult your property, it's just that the fence that I'd need to keep my dogs in would be fairly ugly in order to work. I also doubt that it would work. As I say, the dogs can borrow down a long way, and can clear 6 foot easily.

    I also think it would be too urban for the setting I'm living in. Not to mention very expensive - 1.5km of fencing would cost a fair bit!

    Don't be so crass, you're not insulting my property, your reply was aggressive and uncalled for.

    I didn't say to to replace the fencing you already have, just put something in front of it so that the dog can't chew through the wood, if the dog hasn't burrowed under the present fence, I don't see why it would suddenly do so just because theres a bit of extra fencing in front of it. It doesn't have to be full height, just against the wooden fencing so that the dog can't chew it, I doubt that the dog is chewing the top of the fence?

    I live in the country, the fencing blends in perfectly, all around the 2.2 acres of land that I have.


  • Moderators, Arts Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,822 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hellrazer


    Right everyone needs to calm down now.

    Ive issued a red card to bigneacy for the get a ****ing grip comment and wildefalcon youre coming close aswell.

    Now if I get anymore reports about this thread Im locking it and banning people.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,114 ✭✭✭doctor evil


    Whispered wrote: »
    I don't think electric fences themselves are illegal.

    Definitely not illegal

    There are lots of things we do with our animals to guarantee their safety and the safety of others. Not everything in life is pleasant eg injections or even for some, a bath!

    Small pain (if any, I've never handled an electric collar, electric fencing gives a zap that I find unpleasant rather than outright injury causing pain {within proper use of tool of course}) long term gain. There are worse things that can happen if an animal gets out. The zap from a fence goes away quicky and nothing lingers.


  • Registered Users Posts: 117 ✭✭Karma25


    Whether its right or wrong I still think that fine is excessive. I mean people wanting a law like that in Ireland, do you think firstly it could be implemented properly here? Secondly in these financial prudent times are people really going to pay a 3000 fine?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,772 ✭✭✭✭Whispered


    Definitely not illegal

    There are lots of things we do with our animals to guarantee their safety and the safety of others. Not everything in life is pleasant eg injections or even for some, a bath!

    Small pain (if any, I've never handled an electric collar, electric fencing gives a zap that I find unpleasant rather than outright injury causing pain {within proper use of tool of course}) long term gain. There are worse things that can happen if an animal gets out. The zap from a fence goes away quicky and nothing lingers.

    I think you might misunderstand me - I wasn't suggesting that they were illegal, although quoted on it's own it looks like I was.
    The thread was actually about e-collars, not electric fencing. And the fact someone was prosecuted for using an e-collar. I don't think electric fences themselves are illegal.
    I just meant that wildefalcon would get better advice on training his dog if he opened a thread, as electric fences for livestock are different to e-collars and has very little to do with someone being prosecuted for using an e-collar.

    I do agree that there are worse things that can happen if an animal escapes, of course. But in the instance of e-collars (not livestock fencing) there are so many people who loose their pet when they figure out how to escape, or when for some reason something drives them more than the fear of pain. Even if we take the perceived cruelty out of the equation. They're just not reliable enough to ensure a dogs safety.

    Does anybody know how liability works if sheep were to wander onto your land and your dog kills them?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,772 ✭✭✭✭Whispered


    Karma25 wrote: »
    I mean people wanting a law like that in Ireland, do you think firstly it could be implemented properly here? Secondly in these financial prudent times are people really going to pay a 3000 fine?

    No I don't think it would be implemented properly here as welfare laws in this country are a joke and prosecutions for cruelty are very rare, I would hope that a law would make them more difficult to buy, but I would hold out much hope of prosecutions tbh.

    Financially prudent times or not - If someone breaks the law then they must take the consequences. Whatever that law is. If you don't want to pay a fine, don't break the law.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,458 ✭✭✭ppink


    What do you do when your dog is eating his way through a wooden fence to attack the rabbit belonging to the neighbour?

    I would put steel mesh painted to match the wooden fence up to stop him eating through.
    To stop digging under lay the steel mesh on the ground. If you are worried about appearances dig the sod, lay the mesh and put the sod back over it. If the dog digs he will stop when he gets to the mesh.

    you can buy mesh 2" squared from your builders providers, cut to size with angle grinder or wire cutters and tie up with tie wraps or wire. Paint on sale in Aldi for metal at about €6.99 a tin I think.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,222 ✭✭✭bigneacy


    Hellrazer wrote: »
    Right everyone needs to calm down now.

    Ive issued a red card to bigneacy for the get a ****ing grip comment and wildefalcon youre coming close aswell.

    Now if I get anymore reports about this thread Im locking it and banning people.

    My comment didn't have any bad language in it Hellrazer, so I assume you'll be taking the red card back?

    Or perhaps you are using your mod privileges to penalise those who don't share your views?


  • Moderators, Arts Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,822 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hellrazer


    bigneacy wrote: »
    My comment didn't have any bad language in it Hellrazer, so I assume you'll be taking the red card back?
    I suggest you read Andreas quote as your language is still there.So no I wont be taking it back.

    Or perhaps you are using your mod privileges to penalise those who don't share your views?

    Questioning a mod decision has gotten you another red card.I ahavent even posted in the thread.Now I suggest you drop it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,222 ✭✭✭bigneacy


    andreac wrote: »
    Safe for who, the dog or the owner?? How is it safe when it hurts the dog?:mad:

    Some proof that they do damage and hurt the dog.

    http://maryshouse.us/A_Word_about_Shock_Collars.htm

    http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.135249120615.141862.59639020615

    http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/Adobe/rufus.pdf

    http://caninecountrytualatin.wordpress.com/2009/10/24/shawn-riley/

    What more evidence do you want??

    Give me five minutes and any subject, any person, any inanimate being, any innocent object and I will be able to find someone with a website and "Scientific Evidence" to back up their point of view.

    Just because you can list off a few (ridiculously biased) internet sites and gather some scary pictures doesn't make it true.


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  • Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 919 ✭✭✭Shanao


    bigneacy wrote: »
    Give me five minutes and any subject, any person, any inanimate being, any innocent object and I will be able to find someone with a website and "Scientific Evidence" to back up their point of view.

    Just because you can list off a few (ridiculously biased) internet sites and gather some scary pictures doesn't make it true.

    So, what, these people decided to burn the dogs themselves just to fit their own agenda? The facts are there, so you don't like them, deal with it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,222 ✭✭✭bigneacy


    Shanao wrote: »
    So, what, these people decided to burn the dogs themselves just to fit their own agenda? The facts are there, so you don't like them, deal with it.
    Anything could have happened those dogs - pictures are taken out of context daily on the internet.

    Oh and re: them burning the dogs themselves - sadly, people have done worse to further their beliefs and you know it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 25 seoirserob


    Should electric fences be banned too? . . . or possibly the eating of cow? maybe fences altogether then . . . or maybe just dog owners.

    Something interesting for environmentalist ideology, the most carbon efficient thing a modern family can do is have their dog put down, that's way ahead of even the family car on a lifetime of emissions . . .


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,429 ✭✭✭✭star-pants


    seoirserob wrote: »
    Something interesting for environmentalist ideology, the most carbon efficient thing a modern family can do is have their dog put down, that's way ahead of even the family car on a lifetime of emissions . . .

    *insert rolleyes here*


    Mod hat - seriously must all half decent discussions end up with bickering?This is the last warning to all on this matter. Post decently or you'll find you can't post.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,772 ✭✭✭✭Whispered


    seoirserob wrote: »

    Something interesting for environmentalist ideology,

    I don't know of anybody coming at this from an environmentalist ideology, I fail to see the connection :confused:

    EDIT: Also the treatment of our meat animals is absolutely a very interesting topic, but I don't think really connected to the use of shock collars for containment.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,945 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    A few thoughts. The injuries in the photos are relatively common. Yes some are the result of poor fitting but that is the key of the problem. There might just be a possibility of justifying a remote shock trainer if it is used in exceptional circumstances & by a trained, qualified expert. But they are sold on the high street.

    In the hands of an expert one could argue that they are not cruel if they do not inflict prolonged or unnecessary suffering. But the reality is that they are attractive to people who do not want to spend money on fencing or want a short cut to training.

    If a shooter is out with his dog & it chases cattle then it is not under effective control. He shouldn't let it off lead near livestock until he is confident in it's behaviour.

    The confusion between shock & vibration may be because most training collars can be set to vibrate, shock or both.

    In the UK the RSPCA are deemed to be the arbiters of what constitutes cruel practice under the law. They spoke out against these collars many years ago & the Welsh Assembly are merely following their advice.

    Yes the fine is high. But maybe it's easier to impose a big fine, get huge headlines & have less cases in the future.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,972 ✭✭✭Cherry Blossom


    If people are going to post any more graphic images please do so via a link not directly embedded in the post. It would be great if you could also issue a warning.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,782 Mod ✭✭✭✭DBB


    Whispered wrote: »
    Does anybody know how liability works if sheep were to wander onto your land and your dog kills them?

    Hi Whispered.
    Section 21 of the Control of Dogs Act 1986 states:

    "(2) Where livestock are injured by a dog on land on to which they had strayed, and either the dog belonged to the occupier of the land or its presence on the land was authorised by the occupier, a person shall not be liable under this section in respect of injury done to the livestock, unless the person caused the dog to attack the livestock."
    So, unless you deliberately set your dog on trespassing livestock, it looks like you have no liability for any damage your dog might cause to the sheep.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,000 ✭✭✭andreac


    bigneacy wrote: »
    Anything could have happened those dogs - pictures are taken out of context daily on the internet.

    Oh and re: them burning the dogs themselves - sadly, people have done worse to further their beliefs and you know it.

    Seriously, are you that much in denial as to what damage these contraptions can do to an animal??
    Why would people post pics in relation to these collars and lie about them? Theres a veterinary report there too on a dog that was injured by a collar, are you going to say that someone just made that up too?:rolleyes:


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,945 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    DBB wrote: »
    Hi Whispered.
    Section 21 of the Control of Dogs Act 1986 states:

    So if a person trespasses on your property & your dog bites them, the dog can be put down as dangerous. But not if it attacks a sheep. The law recognises that the sheep shouldn't be there but penalises the dog if it is a human intruder.

    The CoD act is a remarkably bad piece of law especially as it is relatively recent.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,782 Mod ✭✭✭✭DBB


    Discodog wrote: »
    DBB wrote: »
    Hi Whispered.
    Section 21 of the Control of Dogs Act 1986 states:

    So if a person trespasses on your property & your dog bites them, the dog can be put down as dangerous. But not if it attacks a sheep. The law recognises that the sheep shouldn't be there but penalises the dog if it is a human intruder.

    The CoD act is a remarkably bad piece of law especially as it is relatively recent.
    Much as I adore dogs and will always try and find light at the end of the tunnel for a dog that has bitten, I wouldn't have any problem with a human's wellbeing over that of a trespassing sheep.
    The English, Scottish, NI etc legislation is far more up to date and comprehensive than ours, yet similarly to our legislation re trespassing livestock, their law prioritises human health over trespassing animal's health.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,378 ✭✭✭ISDW


    Discodog wrote: »
    So if a person trespasses on your property & your dog bites them, the dog can be put down as dangerous. But not if it attacks a sheep. The law recognises that the sheep shouldn't be there but penalises the dog if it is a human intruder.

    The CoD act is a remarkably bad piece of law especially as it is relatively recent.

    So if you go into a field where there is a bull and there are signs up on the gate warning not to go in, but you ignore them, and are injured by that bull, thats you own fault, and the bull won't be held liable? But if you go into a fenced property with dogs, and there are signs up saying that there are dogs in there, and you get injured, that is the dog's fault, and they can be pts?

    Makes perfect sense to me, two species of animal, two different laws:confused::rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,615 ✭✭✭kildare.17hmr


    i had a mate bitten badly by a dog on someone elses property, the gards said they could not get the dog pts because it was on private property, Not the only time iv heard that ether. Think i heard something about a young boy bitten by a family members dog recently and same story. That could have been in the UK tho


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,782 Mod ✭✭✭✭DBB


    i had a mate bitten badly by a dog on someone elses property, the gards said they could not get the dog pts because it was on private property, Not the only time iv heard that ether. Think i heard something about a young boy bitten by a family members dog recently and same story. That could have been in the UK tho

    It does seem to be the case that people tend not to push the issue if a bite happened on private property. But a person has the right to access a house (for genuine reasons!) without being harmed. So, I think that if someone persued this issue, the dog owner could be on shaky ground.
    Generally, and this is a generalisation, the guards tend not to be terribly hot on the nuts and bolts of dog control legislation!


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