Why is it so hard to become a BER assessor?

Needler · 20-07-2011 01:47AM #1

From the SEAI site

Pre-qualifications
Have a National Certificate Level 6 Advanced Certificate/Higher Certificate in construction studies or other cognate discipline or equivalent.

Training Courses
Successfully complete a recognised BER course from a listed BER Training Provider and obtain a minimum 70% pass mark. A list of training courses can be found here.

Registration
... paid the registration fee by direct debit.

Insurance
All BER Assessors are required to have the following Insurance as a condition of registration:
Public / Products Liability Insurance with an minimum limit of €6,500,000 any one event for Public Liability

Professional liability insurance with a minimum limit of €1,300,000 for any one claim

Employers Liability Insurance (applicable to employer/employee registrations only). Policy provides an indemnity limit of not less than €13,000,000 for any one event

It seems like if you want to become one you must invest fairly heavily in this career with both time and money and it will take a long time to get a return on investment. 2 year course in construction studies and a special BER course added on, with Fees having to be paid to the SEAI crowd left right and centre

Tis a lot of work and qualifications to get just so you can administer a fairly standard test on ordinary houses. To the point that the whole thing smells suspiciously like artificial and unnecessary barriers to entry have been put in place to discourage people taking up this career.

and insurance? how is a BER tester going to do 1.3 million worth of damage in one visit?

Thing is also that ordinary home owners are being made dependent on the people with the time and money to throw at becoming an assesor. A lot of fairly large companies seem to be involved from looking at the list of assesors. Is the whole thing a big swindle?

sydthebeat · 20-07-2011 01:14PM

you havent done your homework.

when this scheme first came into existance it was damned for being "too open". Training providers were supposed to discern between those who had "adequate construction knowledge" and those who didnt. There is loads of evidence that farmers, bar staff, army people etc all getting places on training courses and becoming assessors.
The market was swamped which drove, and continues to drive, the market value for doing an assessment through the floor.
Put course fees, registration fees, yearly subscription fees, tools and insurance fees together and try to work out how many youd have to do at €100 a pop to start making money!!!

Its only right that the service should be restricted to previous graduates. i dont expect to be able to put on an overalls and claim i can tune up a car engine.... so neither should a mechanic expect to be able to claim to be able to give correct advise as to how to improve the energy efficiency of a dwelling.

as you have already commented on in another thread, this scheme should only ever have been seen as an add-on service to be provided by professional people in the construction industry.

You are wholly incorrect to assume that being a BER assessor is simply carrying out "fairly standard test on ordinary houses". A BER assessors is expected to be able to provide analytical advise to new build clients as to how best make their dwelling energy efficient. This requires extensive building science knowledge, including material and service knowledge. This knowledge is NOT provided by the training providers so it can only be based on previous education AND experience. The BER software (DEAP) is the process by which compliance with current Part L building regulations is to be shown. A BER assessor should be expected to be able to 'crunch the numbers' and provide a client with a specification which is economically viable and also meets regulations. They should also be expect to provide advise as to upgraded available and the cost / benefit analysis of these.

If you are thinking o fit as being a stand-alone profession for you i can tell you to forget about it right now, you will never make a living doing it. The market simply does not exist out there. As im in the profession i can tell you that I do on average 1 private BER assessment a week at approx €150 a pop. Take €25 seai fee out of that, then take a further €7 VAT fee.. that leaves you with €118 per week. Assume €2500 starting up fees that means it would take you 21 years to start making money...... and thats if you can actually get teh job for €150!!!!

im not messing with you here, just giving you the reality.

starbelgrade · 20-07-2011 01:23PM

I charge €350 per BER assessment for existing houses and €500 plus for new builds, depending on the house. That excludes VAT & SEAI fees.

I have 15 years experience & a degree in architecture. I wouldn't charge any less for a professional service & I wouldn't expect to pay any less either.

As a consequence of that, I often get rejected by potential clients who consider this to be too expensive as "Johnny down the road" does them for €100.

I'm not at all bothered by this. If someone wants their house rated or specified by someone who hasn't a clue what they are doing, then I'm willing to let them.

Sydthebeat's post is totally spot on... if anything it should be more - not less - difficult than it is to become a BER assessor.

20-07-2011 03:16PM

How are they allowed to get it so wrong

, the Gas industry has been ruined in the same manor, 18 day course to be a gas engineer:mad:, at least they have addressed the problem for BERs, better late than never.

sydthebeat · 20-07-2011 03:55PM

I think its like any new scheme...... devised by bureaucrats with no real life experience.

It just goes to show that while the liberal viewpoint may be for a laise faire market.. the customer is actually best served by adequate regulation.
Even look at what deregulation has done to .taxi drivers

needle, seeing you post in the renewables section it seems that you are in this industry. have you a qualification and have you asked SEAi if its sufficient

paddy147 · 20-07-2011 09:41PM

Alot of the BER assessors are ex civil servents and civil engineers too.

BER is a cushty number for them,according to the BER chap that recently did my house for my solar panel system and SEI grant.

antoinolachtnai · 21-07-2011 08:45AM

BER is a legal requirement. It is a commodity service. One BER cert is as good as another. There is no reason not to take the cheapest quote from a person who is registered to carry them out, unless you want additional services beyond the certification.

As I understand it, the market is totally flooded with qualified BER assessors.

starbelgrade · 21-07-2011 09:47PM

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

BER is a legal requirement. It is a commodity service. One BER cert is as good as another. There is no reason not to take the cheapest quote from a person who is registered to carry them out, unless you want additional services beyond the certification.

As I understand it, the market is totally flooded with qualified BER assessors.

To a certain extent, that's true for someone who just needs a BER for the sake of needing one as a legal requirement. But that's not the only reason people look for them.

And as for the market being flooded - that is also true, but you could say the same about a lot of markets. It doesn't mean however that you don't have people who are willing to pay a higher price for a better service.

If that were the case, everybody would go for the cheapest BER assessor / hairdresser / mechanic / builder etc., that they could find. But that simply isn't the case.

antoinolachtnai · 21-07-2011 10:10PM

It's not the same at all. Hairdressing, mechanical work and building are not a commodity. BER assessment is. There is no reason to prefer one over the other.

If you want to pay more for some extra service, that's fine, but a BER cert is a BER cert is a BER cert.

paddy147 · 21-07-2011 10:17PM

I had to get a BER done 2 weeks ago for my solar panel system and SEI grant scheme.

I got several BER assesment quotes ranging from 120 euro up to 250 euro.

One BER chap tried it on with me,at 1st he told me 140 euro,and then he upped it,as that because my house was extended that he would have to charge me close to 300 euro as all the extra calculations he had to do would ramp up the cost.

So I said "on yer bike so" to him.

I got a very good (ex civil engineer) BER assessor to do the house for me for 125 euro.

The chap was great and very polite and professional too.

Theres some BER chaps out there who will try and ripp you off,if you give them any leeway or a sniff of a chance.:mad:

Needler · 22-07-2011 12:55AM

sydthebeat wrote: »

you havent done your homework.

when this scheme first came into existance it was damned for being "too open". Training providers were supposed to discern between those who had "adequate construction knowledge" and those who didnt. There is loads of evidence that farmers, bar staff, army people etc all getting places on training courses and becoming assessors.

who was doing the damning? I wouldn't have any bother with getting the cheapest BER cert from a farmer if its a legal requirement and don't doubt the farmers ability to do a proper job. Its also more the mandatory insurance and constant fees everywhere that bothers me more than the required qualifications.

I don't see why an assessor would have to pay 25e to submit a cert. Is it still 1960 where each cert has to be processed manually by the SEAI and therefore incurring a legitimate administration charge?

sydthebeat wrote: »

needle, seeing you post in the renewables section it seems that you are in this industry. have you a qualification and have you asked SEAi if its sufficient

not in the industry, just out of college looking for something to do. but my degree has nothing to do with construction, might still give it a try though and see what they say

22-07-2011 09:51AM

Needler wrote: »

who was doing the damning? I wouldn't have any bother with getting the cheapest BER cert from a farmer if its a legal requirement and don't doubt the farmers ability to do a proper job.

How would a person reliant on a BER course only, do a proper job?

antoinolachtnai · 22-07-2011 10:06AM

gary71 wrote: »

How would a person reliant on a BER course only, do a proper job?

He either issues a BER cert or he doesn't. There is no difference between one and the other.

The methodology and accuracy of the rating is a matter for SEAI, not for the person paying for the cert.

22-07-2011 08:12PM

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

He either issues a BER cert or he doesn't. There is no difference between one and the other.

The methodology and accuracy of the rating is a matter for SEAI, not for the person paying for the cert.

It's either correct or incorrect, I would like it to be correct given a choice.

antoinolachtnai · 22-07-2011 08:42PM

A more qualified person who does the odd BER will not necessarily be more accurate.

Even if it is more accurate, you will not get any benefit whatsoever from the extra expense.

22-07-2011 09:14PM

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

A more qualified person who does the odd BER will not necessarily be more accurate.

Even if it is more accurate, you will not get any benefit whatsoever from the extra expense.

Would it not be useful in determining the heat requirement for a property?

antoinolachtnai · 22-07-2011 09:43PM

If you mean for sizing a heating system or suchlike, no, I don't think it will be much use.

22-07-2011 11:27PM

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

If you mean for sizing a heating system or suchlike, no, I don't think it will be much use.

So how would you determine if the boiler/heating is suited to the property and not over sized or undersized?

antoinolachtnai · 23-07-2011 12:04AM

I would get a survey done for that purpose before installing the boiler. You need to figure out the correct heating requirement for each room, not just for the house as a whole.

The BER cert is only intended to provide an indication of overall energy efficiency. It might tell you a bit more, but it isn't designed to.

23-07-2011 12:21AM

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

The BER cert is only intended to provide an indication of overall energy efficiency. It might tell you a bit more, but it isn't designed to.

How can you work out the energy efficiency of a property if you can't identify if the boiler matches the heat requirement of the property?

antoinolachtnai · 23-07-2011 12:37AM

By getting a survey done for the purpose of specifying a boiler. BER is just a check after a house has been specified or built. It's not part of the specification process

23-07-2011 12:44AM

It seems a bit pointless as a cert if it can't do what should be a given.

antoinolachtnai · 23-07-2011 12:47AM

The BER cert isn't intended to be for your benefit - it's for the benefit of the prospective tenant or purchaser.

23-07-2011 12:55AM

Is not a cert that identifies the energy efficiency of a property but can't identify if the costliest energy component in the property is within a given tolerance for the energy required to heat the house.

B.A._Baracus · 11-07-2012 10:24PM

Just seen this thread.

So ... there are alot of BER acessors out there who are chancing their arm?

sydthebeat · 11-07-2012 11:20PM

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

Just seen this thread.

So ... there are alot of BER acessors out there who are chancing their arm?

What are you talking about?

Is there something specific you have a question on, or did you just come in here to troll?

B.A._Baracus · 12-07-2012 03:09PM

sydthebeat wrote: »

What are you talking about?

Is there something specific you have a question on, or did you just come in here to troll?

I searched BER courses in Google Ireland.
I read a bit about it on other sites.
Seen this thread, posted in it.

but you know what, forget it Sydthebeat. I clearly see some chip on your shoulder. I'll search around google :rolleyes:

sydthebeat · 12-07-2012 04:24PM

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

sydthebeat wrote: »

What are you talking about?

Is there something specific you have a question on, or did you just come in here to troll?

I searched BER courses in Google Ireland.
I read a bit about it on other sites.
Seen this thread, posted in it.

but you know what, forget it Sydthebeat. I clearly see some chip on your shoulder. I'll search around google :rolleyes:

Still doing pointless posts....

kurumul · 14-10-2015 05:43PM

I am reactivating this thread (I hope) because it seems to me that a BER cert is fairly useless if the insulation, or lack of it, has not been properly tested. i.e; Is test equipment not used when assessing a house. ? The density of walls, whether single block or double walled. Any insulation material within a wall cannot be seen so surely a piece of equipment is needed to test the walls, floors etc. for density and leakage of heat ? I live in a 1920's house which would undoubtedly be a single block construction, and probably floors laid directly onto the soil beneath. I would not imagine there are any plans or construction details of the building either. ? Therefore is an old building assessed purely by the naked eye ?

sydthebeat · 14-10-2015 05:53PM

A ber assessment is a comparison tool (to compare dwellings of similar size and age), not a specific assessment of how the dwelling uses energy.

A lot of people get confused over this.

kurumul · 14-10-2015 08:31PM

Really ? Well that doesn't tally with the report I received from the assessor. ? The report was a 'specific' assessment of exactly how the house uses heat, this house. ! Every sentence in the report used the same words "heat loss" "escaping heat" etc.etc. Surely BER means "building energy rating", in which case its all about the use of energy, i.e; heat. ?

Why is it so hard to become a BER assessor?

Comments